Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby DaveBee » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:50 pm

Radioclare wrote:While I was paying I asked her what had happened to Algoritam and she said that they had been unable to pay their bills and the entire chain had gone bust :shock: I guess my reading of Croatian news on Twitter is not as diligent as I thought, because this had completely passed me by. Although their range of books didn't really impress me, it's sad to hear of any bookshop going out of business. Especially because there's a weird system I don't quite understand in Croatia whereby lots of the bookshops are owned by the book publishers. So Algoritam were a publisher of books too :(
You see that producer > retailer link in other industries, so why not books too? You certainly see (or used to see!) areas of bookshops with publisher branded shelving. Picador books here. Faber books there. Penguin classics etc.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:55 pm

I really miss Dubrovnik and Kotor! I think I should bookmark your post for next time I go there, as last time I didn't have the time to browse bookstores. :)

Radioclare wrote:[*]Every time I was sitting on a bus or in a cafe and I recognised one of the Croatian pop songs being played on the radio I got ridiculously excited, even if it was a song I actually don't like at all; just recognising it and knowing what it was called made me feel like I'd cracked the code to some sort of secret society :lol:
I sort of had the same experience when staying in Japan. Except that most of the J-pop songs I knew were anime tie-ins, so every time I'd hear them in a public space I'd get startled - "Why am I hearing this song in real life?!" :D

Radioclare wrote:I came away with two books of Serbian fairytales; one called "bajke" (which is the word I have learned for fairytales) and one called "basne" which is a word I've never heard before. I had to ask the man to explain to me what the difference is between "bajke" and "basne"; from what he said, it sounds like "bajke" are what I would think of as traditional fairytales, with princesses and castles and things, whereas "basne" are stories about animals who have human characteristics.
If Russian cognates are anything to go by, the correct translation for "basne" would be "fables", like those of Aesop. Байка has a completely different meaning in (modern) Russian though - something between "anecdote" and "tall tale".
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby iguanamon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:19 am

Radioclare wrote:...Next time someone asks me how I learned Croatian, I'm going to have to tell them it was down to watching telenovelas :) The other big breakthrough was that I was able to speak spontaneously and didn't have to plan in my head what I was going to say in advance, which is definitely the stage I was at a couple of years ago. There were definitely times when I wished I had planned in advance what I was going to say and where my sentences tailed off because I couldn't remember a word or was hesitant about the correct declension of a noun on the spur of the moment. But for me the big thing was that I felt confident enough to start the sentence in the first place and to initiate conversations rather than just trying to cope with responding to what had been said to me. We had a few minor crises, like when we couldn't turn off the air-conditioning unit in my parents' bedroom in Kotor and my Mom asked me to go and explain about it to the landlady. Probably even a year ago the thought of doing so would have filled me with absolute dread. But I was able to go and explain the problem and come back with the explanation that there was a technical fault which meant it couldn't be turned off, but if my parents were feeling chilly they could try putting a towel over it at night to block out the cold air. Those are conversations that textbooks don't prepare you for :) ...

I successfully used telenovelas to get to an advanced level in Portuguese. I've been noticing that they've been getting some criticism lately on the forum. Yes, they're cheesy, "over the top", outrageous, over-dramatic and silly at times, but I know of nowhere else where a learner can find such a huge amount of everyday speech in context so readily available. I wouldn't watch one in English but they have served me well in both Spanish and Portuguese.
Radioclare wrote:...If we were still on the old forum, I think I would move Croatian to "speaks" at this point, because I do feel able to "speak" it now and I feel like I could get a lot better very quickly with more practice. But on this forum the trend is more for attributing CEFR levels to languages and I don't really want to do that because I haven't passed an exam in any of my languages and every time I look at CEFR tables I feel like I don't have half those skills even in English :?

I know what you mean. The recent thread about levels, makes me think I should go back to the old HTLAL levels and just say advanced instead of CEFR. Based on what you've described, you are definitely B2 and probably at least at C1. I've been thinking for a while you should move Croatian to "speaks". "Lying" about levels works both ways, Radioclare. Judging from your entries here, you are most definitely underestimating your ability :) . It just goes to show what learning a language to a high level can do to really make for an enriching and rewarding travel experience. Hope you can get back to Croatia soon!
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Chung » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:21 pm

Just say that you speak BCMS/SC. In the end, it's an asset only to you and a liability to no one. Being able to speak a foreign language doesn't mean that you can't also still be learning it (albeit at an advanced level). Think of some of the people who attend language classes for C1. For all intents and purposes, these people must also be able to speak the language (albeit not at that advanced of a level) regardless of how many pigskins they've received in the form of proficiency certificates.

I've been wrestling with this for a while with Polish and Slovak, and to a certain extent German. Some days, I can put out stuff with little effort, get jokes and participate in a spontaneous conversation. I've had experiences like your latest ones in the Balkans, but in Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia instead. What does give me pause though is that there are still enough times when I geniuinely fail to understand what someone asks me, and I then either ask him/her to repeat, or more embarrassingly, answer in a way that betrays a lack of understanding. I suspect that you're at a higher level in BCMS/SC than I am in Polish and Slovak.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:56 pm

Thank you all for your comments and positivity :) I have officially updated my profile to have Croatian as "speaks" now.

DaveBee wrote:You see that producer > retailer link in other industries, so why not books too? You certainly see (or used to see!) areas of bookshops with publisher branded shelving. Picador books here. Faber books there. Penguin classics etc.


I genuinely haven't noticed that in the UK; I would have said the default for bookshops here and in most countries I've visited was to shelve books either by subject area or by alphabetical order. I think ordering them by publisher makes it more difficult to browse, eg. when I was looking for an Agatha Christie in the independent bookstore in Dubrovnik, I couldn't look under C for Christie or in a general crime display. Instead I had to remember that last time I read one it was published by a company called Mozaik and then go and find the shelf with books published by Mozaik. At least as a foreigner, it adds a whole new level of confusion! But I take your point that in another industry it wouldn't seem unusual :)

vonPeterhof wrote:If Russian cognates are anything to go by, the correct translation for "basne" would be "fables", like those of Aesop. Байка has a completely different meaning in (modern) Russian though - something between "anecdote" and "tall tale".


Thank you! I've checked my Croatian dictionary now and "basna" is indeed defined as "fable". That makes perfect sense now you've said it, but I didn't make the link at all when the man in the bookshop was trying to explain to me that they were animal stories.

iguanamon wrote:I successfully used telenovelas to get to an advanced level in Portuguese. I've been noticing that they've been getting some criticism lately on the forum. Yes, they're cheesy, "over the top", outrageous, over-dramatic and silly at times, but I know of nowhere else where a learner can find such a huge amount of everyday speech in context so readily available. I wouldn't watch one in English but they have served me well in both Spanish and Portuguese.


I'm hopelessly behind on reading the forum, including everyone's logs, so I hadn't seen the criticism. I am a definite telenovela convert though, despite the fact that I almost never watch TV in English. When I first started trying to watch significant amounts of TV in Croatian, the whole concept felt very unnatural to me. But now I genuinely think that long series are more valuable than films (when you're a beginner at least) because I have benefited from watching huge volumes of the same characters with the same voices/accents talking to each other about the same subjects over and over again. And the fact that the storylines are so crazy actually helped me, because especially when my comprehension was more limited, I needed some sort of motivation to keep persevering with watching and I don't think it matters if that motivation was just to keep going long enough to find out who gets killed/married/resurrected from the dead :D

Chung wrote:I've been wrestling with this for a while with Polish and Slovak, and to a certain extent German. Some days, I can put out stuff with little effort, get jokes and participate in a spontaneous conversation. I've had experiences like your latest ones in the Balkans, but in Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia instead. What does give me pause though is that there are still enough times when I genuinely fail to understand what someone asks me, and I then either ask him/her to repeat, or more embarrassingly, answer in a way that betrays a lack of understanding. I suspect that you're at a higher level in BCMS/SC than I am in Polish and Slovak.


It sounds like what you need are some good telenovelas in Polish and Slovak ;) I know what you mean and I have definitely still had communication failures to cringe about. I think the spontaneity point is the one that tips it for me. A year or so ago if someone had told me "Go and ask X such and such a thing in Croatian" I would have had to spend the 60 seconds while I went to find X planning out and repeating over in my head what I was going to say, whereas now I feel like I could just walk up to X and start speaking without knowing how my sentence was going to end, and if it turned out halfway through my sentence that I didn't know a key word, I could work around that somehow to salvage the communication. It's partly just a personal confidence thing for me as my vocabulary isn't necessarily any wider than it was 12 months ago, but I guess now I have got to the stage where I don't feel like a "fraud" for saying I can "speak" the language.

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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby IronMike » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:37 pm

This was so fun to read, and very timely as we're going to Kotor in about 6 weeks. Can't wait. Will return with a bunch of books!

As for your secret language with your fiance, I am jealous. My wife has no interest in E-o, and my daughter's E-o is poor, and she's lost interest. :(
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:38 pm

IronMike wrote:This was so fun to read, and very timely as we're going to Kotor in about 6 weeks. Can't wait. Will return with a bunch of books!

Will look forward to reading about your experiences too :) My key Kotor tip is to climb the fortress as early in the day as possible; it becomes ridiculously exhausting as the day gets hotter!

As for your secret language with your fiance, I am jealous. My wife has no interest in E-o, and my daughter's E-o is poor, and she's lost interest. :(


That's a shame your daughter has lost interest :( Having a secret language is definitely a cool perk; I would be quite gutted if everyone learned Esperanto really :lol:
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Radioclare » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:43 pm

Time for a musical interlude :)

The weather in the UK is horrible at the moment and very un-summery, but I've been cheering myself up this week with a very cheery song about summer called 'Evo je lito' by Klapa Kampanel. Although it's very different to my normal taste in music, this kind of klapa-style pop music is slowly growing on me, and this one is so much fun that I don't think it's possible to watch it and continue being miserable :) And for language lovers, there are some cool bits towards the end of the video when they're singing about all the different nationalities of tourists and they flash up the word for "room" in all the relevant languages.



I also realised today when reading an article online that the lead singer of my favourite Croatian band, Hladno Pivo, has released his first solo hit. It's called Reno 4 and it's about his about his first car. Not sure how much I'd love it if I wasn't already a fan, but I'm going to keep listening and let it grow on me.



Another song I'm surprising myself by enjoying at the moment is this one called 'Bezimeni' by Mia Dimšić. Surprising, because I have to confess I'm not normally a fan of female vocalists. But this song is really catchy and I like the lyrics too; it's kinda like an anthem against mansplainers and other annoyingly self-important and loud people.

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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Brun Ugle » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:03 pm

Aaah. A little music was just what I needed before bed. I really shouldn't be reading spooky stories so late in the evening, but I was, and I needed a pleasant distraction.
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Re: Radioclare's 2017 log (Croatian/Russian)

Postby Robierre » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm

Nisam ni ja znao da je Algoritam propao. :mrgreen: To je inače izvorno bila knjižara za strane knjige, tek kasnije su počeli izdavati prijevode na hrvatski (ništa interesantno, čini mi se). Nažalost, u malim gradovima se puno knjižara zatvorilo. Vjerujem da je slično u Dubrovniku, pogotovo jer je to grad koji je dosta okrenut ponudi za turiste.

Bajke i basne ti vjerojatno neće imati puno svakodnevnog hrvatskog kojeg učiš iz serija, ali mislim da su dobra stvar za učenje književnog jezika. Ali varka je da imaju jednostavan vokabular; često se u njima koriste arhaične riječi da se priča približi davnim vremenima. :D
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