Ani's 2017 Log

[smallwhite]

I'm going to use the dumb internet acronym ELI5 -- explain like I'm 5. I'm a beginner language learner. I know hour to study from a math book. You read the chapter, think through the examples, maybe write them out and re-do them yourself, then complete the practice problems. If I take notes, I am writing down theorems, noting my own questions so I can dig for background information, and summarizing the uses of the particular information. Studying physics is the same with more questions and rabbit trails to research, and more summarizing the uses and steps of a particular problem and its relation to other things.
I sort of know how to read a book for literary analysis. You summarize the structure of the book, identify the writer's key words and what he means by their use, mark assumptions, arguments and conclusions etc.
I feel like an idiot when I look at a grammar. What are the important notes to take? What activities do you do to be certain you are internalizing the material? What prevents you from looking a set of rules and saying "isn't that nice" and having them go in one ear and out the other? Do you practice each section in a certain way or do writing based on the example text?

Thank you so much for that post. I wish I could break things down like you do. Have you always been so analytical, or is it a skill you acquired after years of explaining things to toddlers?

> I know hour to study from a math book. You read the chapter, think through the examples

That's basically how I use a grammar and this grammar. Sometimes I take notes and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I take summary type of notes, and sometimes I only take notes of things that are harder. Sometimes I review my notes and sometimes I don't. Most notes are on scrap paper and tossed away after not too long. I read one textbook or grammar or website after another (maybe this is key). French is extremely similar to English to me so there's only the occasional difference to learn and memorise, and after reading 10 textbooks/grammars/websites, there's little left that I still don't remember. I seldom do exercises or tests so I don't know what I'm forgetting and life's beautiful. I don't practise making my own sentences. Sometimes I try to translate the example sentences from English to French, but that's mainly under "thinking through the examples" and not for memorisation. Basically, I read grammars to find out how things are expressed. (So, more for output than for input). All that is for both grammars in general and this grammar in particular.

I drill conjugation (a lot) but that's a separate activity. Sometimes I do exercises (eg. Schaum's) but that's more for oral fluency.

The earlier parts of the book had word lists and I did try (a bit) to remember them. Lists like "masculine nouns that end with -x" and not really grammar rules. I wasn't memorising them for the grammar, anyway.

I was sort of responding to your "ways to review advanced grammar without having to try very hard" by saying "I just read harder and harder grammars and over time, grammar felt easier and easier". And I basically just read them.

[zenmonkey]

I'm going to use the dumb internet acronym ELI5 -- explain like I'm 5. I'm a beginner language learner. I know hour to study from a math book. You read the chapter, think through the examples, maybe write them out and re-do them yourself, then complete the practice problems. If I take notes, I am writing down theorems, noting my own questions so I can dig for background information, and summarizing the uses of the particular information. Studying physics is the same with more questions and rabbit trails to research, and more summarizing the uses and steps of a particular problem and its relation to other things.
I sort of know how to read a book for literary analysis. You summarize the structure of the book, identify the writer's key words and what he means by their use, mark assumptions, arguments and conclusions etc.
I feel like an idiot when I look at a grammar. What are the important notes to take? What activities do you do to be certain you are internalizing the material? What prevents you from looking a set of rules and saying "isn't that nice" and having them go in one ear and out the other? Do you practice each section in a certain way or do writing based on the example text?

Thank you so much for that post. I wish I could break things down like you do. Have you always been so analytical, or is it a skill you acquired after years of explaining things to toddlers?

> I know hour to study from a math book. You read the chapter, think through the examples

That's basically how I use a grammar and this grammar. Sometimes I take notes and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I take summary type of notes, and sometimes I only take notes of things that are harder. Sometimes I review my notes and sometimes I don't. Most notes are on scrap paper and tossed away after not too long. I read one textbook or grammar or website after another (maybe this is key). French is extremely similar to English to me so there's only the occasional difference to learn and memorise, and after reading 10 textbooks/grammars/websites, there's little left that I still don't remember. I seldom do exercises or tests so I don't know what I'm forgetting and life's beautiful. I don't practising making my own sentences. Sometimes I try to translate the example sentences from English to French, but that's mainly under "thinking through the examples" and not for memorisation. Basically, I read grammars to find out how things are expressed. (So, more for output than for input). All that is for both grammars in general and this grammar in particular.

I drill conjugation (a lot) but that's a separate activity. Sometimes I do exercises (eg. Schaum's) but that's more for oral fluency.

The earlier parts of the book had word lists and I did try (a bit) to remember them. Lists like "masculine nouns that end with -x" and not really grammar rules. I wasn't memorising them for the grammar, anyway.

I was sort of responding to your "ways to review advanced grammar without having to try very hard" by saying "I just read harder and harder grammars and over time, grammar felt easier and easier". And I basically just read them.

Pretty similar to what I'm trying to do now, after the polyglot meetup...

• notes or no notes?
• if notes, bullet summary
• if notes, if important, if harder, in depth notes and examples
• if important and difficult to learn then figure out a mnemonic or FSI-type drills
• if important and learned, then a recall card into Anki but only from my notes
• Anki card gives a rule and I write out or vocalise examples

[Ani]

I was sort of responding to your "ways to review advanced grammar without having to try very hard" by saying "I just read harder and harder grammars and over time, grammar felt easier and easier". And I basically just read them.

Ah this is awesome! The whole post really, thank you. I really never would have thought to work with a grammar that way even though it seems wildly obvious now that you say it. I've been so bogged down doing exercises and drills, I have been letting the books control me and not the other way around.

Have you always been so analytical, or is it a skill you acquired after years of explaining things to toddlers?

Ha! The tendency for analysis is probably innate but Mortimer Adler's How To Read a Book was life changing. It is an enduring classic for anyone who wants to learn better from books. He covers the sort of analysis I was explaining in his book. If you haven't read it, it is worth checking out sometime.

[Systematiker]

Have you always been so analytical, or is it a skill you acquired after years of explaining things to toddlers?

Ha! The tendency for analysis is probably innate but Mortimer Adler's How To Read a Book was life changing. It is an enduring classic for anyone who wants to learn better from books. He covers the sort of analysis I was explaining in his book. If you haven't read it, it is worth checking out sometime.

I second this recommendation. I've used it to teach, and would recommend it to anyone interested in engaging more with reading.

[Fortheo]

My pile à lire is pretty gross right now. Tons of "dipped my toes" in books as Brun Ugle said in her log the other day, and I am not really committed to finishing anything right this minute. I am reading the translated Hawking's Une brève histoire du temps, Darwin's Sur l'Origine des Especes (with LWT on the computer), and my first Marc Levy Toutes ces choses qu'on ne s'est pas dites. How about you?

I'm in the same boat as you in regards to reading. I finally got around to starting Central Park, but I think I've burned out on Musso books because I read like 80 pages and never picked it up again. All of his characters are starting to feel similar to me, and it's starting to feel like he's simply trying to show off his knowledge of the United States and United States geography lol.

I probably have six other incomplete books on my tablet that will likely remain incomplete. The most consistency I have these days is with comics or manga translated in French.

If you find any French books that are generally upbeat or feel good books, please let me know.

If I find something worth sharing I'll be sure to let you know

[smallwhite]

Mortimer Adler's How To Read a Book was life changing.

I second this recommendation.

Thank you, Ani and Systematiker, for the book recommendation. Ani's quick analysis was eye-opening enough for me already. I spent 2 hours thinking about it and about how I read grammars.

I still remember which teacher it was at school who taught us to "divide and conquer" tasks, and I've followed her advice to this day. Except it's not always easy to see through everyday tasks to be able to divide them into small enough sub-tasks. I really thought (and still believe, actually) Ani got her superpowers from dealing with children, because I know that children ask all sorts of questions about things that we adults take for granted:

Mummy: Be a good girl now and eat your spinach.
Kiddie: What does "be" mean?

Mummy: What are you doing here? Go back to your room.
Kiddie: What does "what" mean?

Smallwhite: What does "use a grammar" mean?
Ani: Just go back to your room.

I was sort of responding to your "ways to review advanced grammar without having to try very hard" by saying "I just read harder and harder grammars and over time, grammar felt easier and easier". And I basically just read them.

Ah this is awesome! The whole post really, thank you. I really never would have thought to work with a grammar that way even though it seems wildly obvious now that you say it. I've been so bogged down doing exercises and drills, I have been letting the books control me and not the other way around.

Nice to know you've found it useful

[Ani]

If you find any French books that are generally upbeat or feel good books, please let me know.

If I find something worth sharing I'll be sure to let you know

I will definitely let you know! (My 2 year old saw your avatar and said "Dat Burger!"... Clearly he watches too much grown up TV )

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So, Russian Glossika. I think it is going to be very useful. I am at a very good place for it --It is probably a good resource while going from A0.5-A2, if I can be allowed to add a half to my A0 status It does have some quirks. One of which is that it isn't actually 3000 different sentences. Quite a few are identical and even more are identical to a different sentence with an answer tacked on. Examples: Sentences 23 and 49 AND 137 are all Quel âge as-tu?. 84 and 104 are both As-tu faim?. Es-tu enseignant (♀enseignante)? is repeated a couple times and then repeated again with "Oui, je le suis" tacked on to another example. "Oui je le suis" being helpfully translated as Да. Many other sentences are repeated with the response translated as Нет as well.
I will definitely continue my text book, especially keeping up on the phonetic section & reviewing because Glossika's explanation of phonetics is really lacking. They just seem to add "j"s to everything. Need to pronounce the Russian "e"? thats "je". Soft consonant? Pop a little "j" after it and you're good to go. They also don't make a distinction between unstressed "o" sounds before, after, or twice removed from the stress. Things like that. .. And of course need to study the grammar.
I did also try the Alphabet Game for Russian on the Glossika site. Given my opinion of their phonetic transcription, I don't think it is very useful for learning the alphabet but the game does remind me of n-back training. They give you a set of transcription rules and with each level you get another set to add in and work with. I got to level 18 in the first session before I felt my working memory overload and start to slip. Good training if you want to improve your IQ

[Ani]

Smallwhite: What does "use a grammar" mean?
Ani: Just go back to your room.

Oh never! You just apparently have skills and efficiency you assume would be evident to everyone, but a lot of us (just me) are rather thick when it comes to this subject of language learning. It should have been rather obvious, "Just read the book, and if you need to, read some more books". Actually it is so counter intuitive to the way I have been studying that I am sitting over here wondering if it could really work. Of course, I can't ask you that. I need to do it myself to see how it really affects my studies.

I know you often say that English is so much like French that there isn't a lot of grammar to learn. I get that. It is very grammatically similar, but being a native speaker of English and a math/science person to boot, I have no idea how English works I have no idea why you can phrase something one way if you start the sentence one way, but must use something another way if you've started the sentence differently. I speak and write on feel. Since I have no natural feel of French, it's back to grammar for me!

Good to know, thanks! Maybe it is just this course. For example, sentences 23 and 49 out of the GMS booklet are both Quel âge as-tu?, and many sentences that are answers to the previous question are varried in the French, but just translated to Да or Нет in the Russian. Ah well.

This is rather realistic though, I remember being told over and over by my English teacher that in English you can't just answer "No" and be done with it. Monosyllabic replies aren't necessarily seen as awkward in other languages though, like German or Russian.

I understand that there are going to be different uses in the language. I didn't want to get into my entire analysis of Glossika on sfuqua's log but I did post more of my comments here, a post up. It isn't so much that there is any issue with a monosyllabic response but that monosyllabic responses don't really add to the sentence count imo. It is a feature of the language that further reduces the sentence count beyond the outright duplication, yk? I've only looked at 350 sentences and already found some that duplicate 3x, and a number are repeated two times + plus the version with да or нет... Not super encouraging on the total count.

And of course in English you CAN give a monosyllabic response and be done with it, it just isn't polite in every circumstance. I'm not always concerned with being polite :-p Simple yes or no answers are sill sometimes correct -- of someone is checking information on a form for example. "Your last name is Arnold?"
"yes"
"Your sill live at xx address?"
"Yes"
And I am sure I could think of tons of other examples

[smallwhite]

Smallwhite: What does "use a grammar" mean?
Ani: Just go back to your room.

Oh never! You just apparently have...

I was just trying to be funny. You wrote me a wonderful reply.

I know you often say that English is so much like French that there isn't a lot of grammar to learn. I get that. It is very grammatically similar, but being a native speaker of English and a math/science person to boot, I have no idea how English works ... Since I have no natural feel of French, it's back to grammar for me!

I had no idea how English works either when I first started to learn French. I had learned English through (natural or artificial) immersion and not through grammar. Jargon like "adjective" was never mentioned. I was no different from you at the starting point except you knew way more cognates than me

I know you often say that English is so much like French that there isn't a lot of grammar to learn. I get that.

Out of (say) 10 uses for the French present tense, 8 of them are exactly the same as in English. Some people drop notes on all 10 uses and drill all 10 uses. Some people do so only for the 2 that are different. I see the glass as 80% full, that's all. I learn Chinese dialects, too, where I'd be in the same position as you learning French, and that glass is 80% full as well. Cognate languages are gifts from heaven

[blaurebell]

And of course in English you CAN give a monosyllabic response and be done with it, it just isn't polite in every circumstance. I'm not always concerned with being polite :-p

That's exactly what I meant, just from a British English perspective They are simply obsessed with politeness. In Russian and German it's not considered impolite. That said, it's of course annoying for the sentence count of Glossika, I totally get what you mean! I'm also not sure how much mileage you'll get out of Glossika with a language that is so different from the ones that were originally meant to be taught with the Glossika method. Since the sentences are the same for all the languages they tend to be only systematic for certain languages where the grammatical structures match English / certain Asian languages and with some languages you end up with very odd grammatical constructs that are theoretically possible but not necessarily commonly used. The Spanish Glossika is full of such unnatural ways of speaking that result from too literal translations. So, the Spanish Glossika definitely shouldn't be memorised and parroted without thinking. I'm sure the same is true for other Glossika packages. With Russian I can imagine that certain grammatical constructs like cases and verb aspect will be somewhat neglected because they are things that simply don't appear in the original target/source languages. That said, at least the start of Russian Glossika seemed fairly natural to me, maybe it's still useful once you remove all the redundancies. I simply can't judge the more complex sentences though which is why I haven't used Glossika much yet.