Tristano's log 2017: Wanderland in the Netherlusts

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Ogrim
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby Ogrim » Fri May 12, 2017 1:50 pm

Hi Tristano. I've had sort of a break from the forum for the last few weeks, but reading your last posting I just have to chip in with my two cents:

I've read your logs ever since you started writing here on LLorg. I did study some Dutch many years ago, but it is not on my list now. Still I like reading about languages I don't learn, and I like learning about other members' experiences and endeavours, so I have very much enjoyed following your ups and downs and ups with Dutch and your plans for Russian/Hebrew/German etc. I don't learn Hebrew either, but I am very interested in hearing about your experiences with embarking on a Semitic language.

Although we are here to talk about language learning, a log does not only have to be about that. Your posts last year about your attempts at Russian cuisine were great!

I do not post very regularly in my log, because I don't care about keeping track of my studies, recording how many minutes and hours I have spent reading/listening etc. I write when I feel I have something interesting to say, or because I want to share a story, a cultural experience (a book, a piece of music, a movie) or a trip I've made. Sometimes I write in my target languages because at least for some languages it is the only place I ever write them, but then at least I make an English translation or summary. I don't worry much about how many readers I have or how many "hearts" I get - I am not here to compete with anyone, I do it for my own pleasure. Now, if people do read and appreciate what I write, then so much the better.

So in short, if you decide to stop your log because it is time consuming, I fully understand that, but be assured from the replies you've already got here that many of us do read your log with interest and I for one would be sorry if you stopped posting.
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iguanamon
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby iguanamon » Fri May 12, 2017 2:19 pm

Ogrim wrote:I do not post very regularly in my log, because I don't care about keeping track of my studies, recording how many minutes and hours I have spent reading/listening etc. I write when I feel I have something interesting to say, or because I want to share a story, a cultural experience (a book, a piece of music, a movie) or a trip I've made. ... I don't worry much about how many readers I have or how many "hearts" I get - I am not here to compete with anyone, I do it for my own pleasure. Now, if people do read and appreciate what I write, then so much the better.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Ogrim. I think one of the traps some members fall into here is treating a log like an actual paper log- primarily using it to record time spent, books read, etc. Of course, this is useful to the logger but could just as easily be done on paper in a notebook at home. If you want to gain readers, look at logs like Ogrim's, James29, Expugnator and Radioclare. What I find interesting is the journey people are making and what's going on along the way. Reading about the culture, interesting feature of a language, struggles or just a good story is what grabs my attention. I love reading Radioclare's synopses of the Croatian novela, Larin Izibor, even though I have no intention of ever learning Croatian, for example.

Try to write as if you were writing to your best friend or a family member. Make it personal to a certain extent but not so personal that you reveal too much about your private life in a forum. It's a balance that's achievable. You have an interesting story to tell as an Italian who has emigrated to the Netherlands and learned Dutch. I'm sure you must come across something interesting everyday with Dutch. You can talk about your struggles with wanderlust and why you have them, how you deal with it and how you manage to learn while dealing with it. There are many aspects of your learning that will and do interest people here. The best logs are a conversation between the logger and the readers. I don't always achieve this myself, but I try.

In a way, you were a catalyst for making this forum possible. For quite some time you had been urging a move from HTLAL because of the lack of involvement of the administrator. It had an effect and I took it into account when we finally decided enough was enough and made the move. You are a valuable part of this forum.
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby reineke » Fri May 12, 2017 8:22 pm

Tristano, I am not sure it is in your interest to spend time blogging here in some sterile and safe fashion about life and stuff. You have a point about Pimpler updates. They are dead boring. It is a lot more interesting reading about you not learning languages. You have proven to yourself that you can do it but you do need to decide where you are going before you can write a travelogue.
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby Expugnator » Sat May 13, 2017 11:01 pm

I also follow closely your log! Ever since you were undecided about which Romance language to learn. Don't judge the popularity of one's log by the number of replies. Logs are still mainly seen as personal diaries, and any reply is rather punctual (sometimes even provoked). My log goes long weeks with no reply or even few likes but I know I have not only followers but also friends to support one another, and I notice you have realized this now as well.
I'm currently wanderlusting​ strongly for Hebrew. Besides, you're a native Italian and you have an interesting expatriate story, so all those reasons besides friendship and affinity will likely make me remain as a reader. Keep sharing and growing the overall friendship!
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Tristano
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby Tristano » Tue May 23, 2017 3:05 pm

Hi guys,
I spent the last days rereading your messages. Thank you very much for the support and your opinions.
A lot of material for thinking, a lot of good (or not so good) ideas and a lot of thinking about my identity on this forum.
Some of the questions are:
- what is this log?
- why do I log?
- who am I outside this forum?
- what to do next?

Well, this is not a Hebrew log. That is what the title says, and it is misleading. What this actually is, like Reineke says, it's me not learning languages. Until when by mistake it happens that I finally learn one, but not enough to say that I master it. And that is just fine. I log because honestly said, nobody outside this forum cares much about the fact that [I'm a/ I would like to be a] polyglot. It is a solitary journey that changed my life forever and I enjoy it, like I enjoy complaining about how much time a certain language requires to be learned. I'm a hopeless wanderluster that feels guilty to use his time improductively. And the point is: it is so part of my personality to wanderlust and follow multiple passions. Other hobbies of mine are:

- cooking. I can't tell how many different world kitchen I'm into it, how many different techniques I want to learn. I'm crazy for Italian, French, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Mexican, Indian... and I constantly make new discoveries. I buy books about cooking and cookbooks compulsively. I'm even worse than with languages.

- sport. I'm doing bodybuilding to get out of the "I'm a very thin guy" thing, but I would like to do powerlifting because I would like to be insanely strong. And I would like to run a marathon but for now I can't run because of an injury (and before the injury I never ran more than 8 km very slowly). Too many goals!

- playing music. My speciality is piano but I also learned some saxophone and flirted with accordion, irish flutes and ukulele. Of course I'm good only with piano (good = decent). And I try to sing without remarkable results.

- photography. Well this is on hold. I need a better camera but it is too expensive for now.

... and every year I add new things to my wish list!

Then I noticed that I'm just living my life in English (99% of my books are in English, 99% of the videos I watch are in English, 99% of the articles... well you get the idea) and it is not even my native language! Then I remembered that I bought two books of Jamie Oliver in Spanish and I didn't even use them, and you know why? Because the names of the ingredients for some obscure reason don't resemble their names in italian at all so I should translate every recipe! Then I read an article of Judith Meyer talking about optmizing language learning for the tasks that are relevant to you. And in the meanwhile I started to flirt with Romanian, discovered that the Romanian cuisine is quite interesting (but what about the French cuisine and the two books of Jamie in Spanish) and if 2 + 2 = 4, then...

well, you got the idea.
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby tommus » Wed May 24, 2017 12:15 am

Tristano wrote:... and every year I add new things to my wish list!

I think you are a "scanner". I am a scanner. A scanner is a personality type that finds lots and lots of things to be so interesting, they can't be resisted.

Many people on this forum are scanners, even if they don't know it. We discussed this before, either on LLorg and/or HTLAL. The Internet has lots of info about scanners. The definitive writer on the subject is Barbara Sher who coined the word "scanner" and wrote the book.

Are You a Scanner? By Barbara Sher
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed May 24, 2017 12:43 am

I don't think labelling yourself helps, or saying that's just me and that's my personality. I believe personality is both reactionary and malleable with perhaps some underlying traits.

Like our brains and our physical form, we all have certain inherent qualities and other than can be adapted through practise. For example a tall person can be naturally better equipped to play basketball, as certain people can be just apparently much better at certain things such as mathematics. But through consistent effort we can shape our own physical form and mental form to be better equipped at various activities no matter what our 'gifts' or 'hurdles'.

'Scanners', in my opinion are the kinds of personalities that are simply captivated by more things that they want to become better at and be involved in and don't focus on one thing/less things to accomplish this. They want it all! This could be lack of focus? Nothing stopping a 'scanner' from moulding their personality to focus on one thing (or less things) to further advance in that/those chosen field(s). You can mould your personality is my point. I would be hesitant to label yourself as a certain kind of personality and thus giving up responsability for being able to change your ways. If you are happy 'scanning' that's fine, but if you want to advance, it's time to focus and accept that you can't have it all at once, and thus be patient. Less is more.

Choose what is most important to you in one field and stick at it. Choose what is most important to you across all fields (sport, languages, cooking etc).

My thoughts on proceeding-
Which language you really want to/need to advance in. Choose it, make it your focus, don't stop until you reach your goal. If you want to mess about with other languages a little, do so, but have one language as your main focus.

Choose one sport as well.

Do this with all your interests.

Then decide which of all the interests is most important? Advancing in your chosen langauge, becoming a power lifter, cooking. And make sure you always do that most important activity every day for the given amount of time you have decided to allot to it in order to advance to your objective. Physical fitness is important. Is it more important to you than advancing in your language? If it is, then your main chosen sport should come first and your 2nd most important thing second - perhaps that would be your chosen language you do what you can each day. Or vice versa- language first and foremost being most important and advancing a little slower in your sport as your second priority, and so on.

Evaluate your goals, prioritise and stay focused on those goals. Few scanners if any existed in prehistoric times because there weren't so many options. Now there are, so scanners are not people that suddenly came into existence, they are people that either choose to do many different activities or people who struggle to stay focused sufficiently long enough in order to advance. If you want to get better, prioritise and focus!
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tommus
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby tommus » Wed May 24, 2017 3:03 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:'Scanners', in my opinion are the kinds of personalities that are simply captivated by more things that they want to become better at and be involved in and don't focus on one thing/less things to accomplish this. They want it all!

Well, sort of. But we scanners don't really "want it all". It is just that there are so many things in this world that are very interesting. I expect there are many things that don't interest scanners. In my case, I have very little interest in music, movies, fiction, gardening, art, etc. But computer programming (so many interesting computer languages, applications, etc. with virtually unlimited free resources). Language learning: again, so many interesting options, plus the allure of travelling to many places. Science: unlimited opportunities for learning.

PeterMollenburg wrote:This could be lack of focus? Nothing stopping a 'scanner' from moulding their personality to focus on one thing (or less things) to further advance in that/those chosen field(s).

Many scanners can really focus on specific things for short periods because they find things so interesting. But as you say, the longer-term focus is weak because of the attraction of other things. I see people who are extremely narrowly-focused on one thing at the exclusion of all else. And they are often happy as a clam. I could see myself doing that and enjoying it, as long as I am on a desert island with no other distractions.

PeterMollenburg wrote:You can mould your personality is my point. I would be hesitant to label yourself as a certain kind of personality and thus giving up responsability for being able to change your ways.

Not as easy as you might think. Scanning is a bit like an addiction. Very hard to give it up.

PeterMollenburg wrote:If you are happy 'scanning' that's fine, but if you want to advance, it's time to focus and accept that you can't have it all at once, and thus be patient. Less is more.

True. I often contemplate focusing on just one or two things. That would probably be the complementary interests of learning one language supported by focused computer programming. But I seriously doubt it has any chance of happening. Scanners are often also hoarders. Can't throw anything away because all your "stuff" is interesting. So scanners find it very difficult to "throw away" any or all of the things they are interested in.

I think true scanners can relate to all this, but non-scanners: maybe not so much.
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Tristano
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby Tristano » Wed May 24, 2017 8:15 am

Thanks @Tommus and @PeterMollenburg.
I can relate to the scanner thing. With only one catch: I'm not starving in the candy shop. I'm eating one candy per type and with some type maybe 5 of them. I actually reach something in a bunch of the things I try and with what really interests me I tend to be above average and there is where I lose interest. Take languages, I speak 5 languages more or less fluently, and then there is Hebrew where I can exchange pleasantries, ask some simple indications and understand something from a phone conversation. That is way above what people in average can do and way below what committed polyglots can do. But yes, during the time I dabbled in Chinese, Persian, Japanese, Icelandic, Portuguese, Romanian, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Lithuanian, Russian, Polish, Toki Pona, Latin, Esperanto, Arabic and who knows how many others. As a general rule my biggest use of languages is on a passive level with writing being the least important skill, but for Dutch and English all the skills are equally important to me. Other polyglots learn much more languages at a better level than me, but that's fine. I have a very committed lifestyle, full time job, girlfriend, daughter, sport, languages, music, cooking etc. I'm actually doing pretty fine if I think about it. And the good part: learning languages doesn't work in isolation. It stimulates my brain and makes me become a better software developer and a better pianist. It makes me curious about many different culture and as such it makes me a better citizen and a better boyfriend and father. It improves my memory and makes me delay senile dementia - I will be a better grandpa. Also not learning a language does the trick ;) The biggest problem: the world makes me feel guilty about not specialize and accomplish. "You're in Netherlands, you should do only Dutch". "Cooking and sporting is not important, you should concentrate on your work". "You should keep only one hobby". And so forth. That's causing the war in my head.
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Re: Tristano's log 2017: Hebrew (A.K.A. The undecided language learner)

Postby zenmonkey » Wed May 24, 2017 10:10 am

Just quipping in as another person that enjoys your log and feels much like a kindred spirit (in fact, huge overlaps...). The tension between what is out there and possible and todays current focus is probably a good thing - it may be the only filter of activities don't bring value to you.

As to the log, I'm using my own as a mixed tool - some posts are technical notes, some are travelogue, some are cultural notes and a few are short activity tracking. I'm very inconsistent about my audience - I'm not so sure I want to write for others sometimes and I'm sure that comes across. And I tend to keep my posts short because of the time/effort factor.
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