Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

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Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:26 pm

Wednesday 1st February 2017

80 minutes cebuano Matthew gospel in car.

Deep dive Matthew chapter 1 verses 18 to 25 (remainder).

154 words (again!). 16 unknowns, one complete mystery 'nganli' typo? Name? Of that (related)?

I think 'named'.

Got meanings of 15 of them, some approximate.

Translated to English. Bit odd around verse 21. Needs checking.

Pleased overall.

My wife checked the first 18 verses if Mateo 1 and very good, one oddity - original bible text had Tagalog word pagkabihag meaning captured/enslaved but cebuano is pagdakop.
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SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:29 pm

Cebuano Resources

Commons / Public

https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/11776
Downloaded / uploaded as PDFs to Google Play Books
Part Four: Vocabulary and Indexes [PDF] (10.48Mb) - Affixes listed
Part Three: Morphology [PDF] (11.73Mb) - Affixes mostly here - described
Part Two: Introduction, Phonemics, Morphophonemics and Syntax [PDF] (6.822Mb)
Part One: Texts and Translations [PDF] (3.090Mb) - index too

Web links (Verb affixes) - printed out
http://www.languagelinks.org/onlinepapers/fil_cbstd2.html
http://www.binisaya.com/content/aspectu ... uano-verbs

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=9319

http://www.languagelinks.org/onlinepapers/fil_sdic3.html
http://www.languagelinks.org/onlinepape ... sdic2.html
http://www.languagelinks.org/onlinepapers/fil_sdic.html

http://www.languagelinks.org/onlinepapers/fil_chro.html

Not much on affixes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebuano_grammar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebuano_language

At first glance these Proto-Austronesian affixes seem remarkably close to Cebuano
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Aus ... ge#Affixes
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SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:04 am

Thursday 2nd February 2017 (edited)

Load of research / cross reference on affixes (mostly verbal). Colour coded some tables. Worked through different sources. Probably 2 hours.

Problem is resources contradict, even within themselves.

Example from memory

Nakatulog ang bata

Stated meaning 'the baby had slept'

Closer meaning 'the baby has fallen asleep (recently?) [Accidentally/unintentionally/without me knowing]'

Similar to 'i just left the baby a minute and when I came back he was asleep'.

Even this I can't be sure, checked different sources and with (tired) native.

Anyway 80 minutes of background listening to Matthew chapters 2 to 12 in car.

Two hours of affixes.

Some speaking of cebuano. Pretty natural, not much conscious effort.

200+ words of Matthew chapter 2 verses 1-10 (same as I listen to often in car).

Noted affixes and wrote out separately for checking later.

Highlighted unknowns, only 6 out of 200+! Edit: 11

So 6 percent unknown words! If below either 2 or 1 percent I should just be able to read without looking up or getting lost!

These 11 (edited from 6) words are low frequency by my reckoning.

Leader
supervised
'Manang tibuok' meaning entire, a contraction of 'man ang tibuok' but different in meaning to the usual contraction of 'may tibuok'. Perhaps emphasis, relating to whole population of a city or idiom.
And some more I can't remember!

Previous unknowns were probably low frequency as well.

Engaged
Righteous
Bring shame on another
Married (weird form. I knew root but not connected word)... Maybe marriage service/event?
Due to marry
Found herself pregnant
Without sin (euphemism for virgin?)
Etc.

Very happy.

Edit : got number of unknown words wrong. I thought it was 6 but actually 11. Also realised for previous log entries the percentage is wrong as I'm counting unknown words once whereas totals include duplicates.

But for this exercise I don't think any of the words have multiple instances in this passage.

Therefore 5 or 6 percent is probably accurate, but in future I'll view this number just as an indication or guide.


Friday 3rd February 2017.

3 hours of affixes and translating of 200 cebuano word passage of Matthew chapter 2 verses 1 to 10.

Only one or two parts are doubtful. I haven't checked the English translation. Don't feel I need to but probably should.

I think tomorrow I should deep study 'giuhaw sa pagmahal' episode 1 by watching repeatedly, identity new words and make plot notes. Then post it on Binisaya possibly in English and cebuano, hoping for feedback/corrections.
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:49 pm

giuhaw sa pagmahal' episode 1 watched 2 times. Grief, this will be full hard work.

I'll check out some other cebuano material.

I'm not a soap opera fan.

Any suggestions?
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

elco2
White Belt
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:48 am
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (intermediate/advanced), Spanish (Intermediate), Biblical Greek (Advanced), French, Portuguese, Tagalog, Biblical Hebrew (low intermediate) Bisaya dialects, Romanian (Beginner), Russian (beginner), Mandarin (beginner)
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... ?TID=35337
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby elco2 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:53 am

Is the grief from the speakers or the story itself?

It was like listening to a brick wall the first time I heard it.That's where this sound bite came from on one of my logs http://polydog.org/index.php?attachments/cebu_sample1-mp3.58/

As far as the "naka-" prefix goes (and others), I think the shades of meaning depend in the context, which would explain the contradictions.
1 x

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:51 am

elco2 wrote:Is the grief from the speakers or the story itself?

It was like listening to a brick wall the first time I heard it.That's where this sound bite came from on one of my logs http://polydog.org/index.php?attachments/cebu_sample1-mp3.58/

As far as the "naka-" prefix goes (and others), I think the shades of meaning depend in the context, which would explain the contradictions.



Is that the mum of the brother and sister at the start?

That's hard to understand. Very fast and quite high pitched.

The bible has generally been narrated by men, speaking slowly with occasional fast female dialogue.

It's yes to both of your questions.

I'm not a soap opera fan, when my mother in law was here I had all 300 episodes on as background in the house.

I wasn't finding them addictive (unlike others....).

I don't find the sound quality great and the speed of talking is so fast.

I recognise that if I can follow this kind of native input / use of language then I have probably conquered listening comprehension. Especially if songs are also mastered.

So it has its uses.

Instead I listened to 15 minutes of a political show with one male and one female talking with bits in English adding context.

Much slower, more interesting, funny.

Not for everyone and I'll not mention the show because of the forum no politics rule.

But I did subscribe to it as well as giuhaw.

I'll start with the politics.

Giuhaw is too overwhelming. Truly a wall of sound!
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 124

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:05 am

Elsewhere on this site but hard to link to on a phone.

optimize for (1) understanding, (2) fun and (3) volume of newness. It isn't sufficient that it's fun and easy to understand - ideally you want to do it a way that brings a maximum of new content. It becomes a challenge of balancing that out - often volume isn't that much fun for someone. I am able to do systematic frequency lists (I find advancing through them 'fun') but often verbs and adjectives are poorly contextualized in this manner. Fun, lots of volume but not enough contextualizing.


Memrise is fun but little contextualising. Sentences courses are better.

Understanding and fun should lead to volume as long as I have time.

It's been hard finding something I enjoy in a minority language (not by number of speakers but by resources).

As the Bible is history of a kind (but not the kind I would consume in my L1), it May be the best choice. Plenty of volume (25 hours new testament audio, more text).

Politics show may also be good for understanding and fun.

I'm not greatly drawn to the short stories I've seen.

Could be drawn to historical drama/books.

Pre Spanish through to ww2.

Wikipedia pages in cebuano on ww2 etc were good.
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 124

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:39 pm

Saturday 4 February 2017

Actual learning.

2 verses of Mateo 2 deep dive. Ie write out by hard. Identity unknown words, look up and translate to English. Haven't checked numbers of unknowns in words.

Some listening to politics talk show.

Looking at learning methods and resources for cebuano now and Spanish in April.

Sent myself a few links. Audio books etc

Emo on this site with spanish suggestions especially Avatar series which I have seen bits of and liked.


Sunday 5 February 2017

A little looking at resources. Downloaded samples from Amazon of Asimov books in spanish onto my Kindle app (I hope).

I happened upon a law student / musician on YouTube who was saying some of the Philippines law code in bisaya and singing.

From there I found someone doing covers of pop songs in bisaya with clearer subtitles than usual IE not weird scripts, spinning etc.

Spent 30 plus minutes badly singing to a John legend song which was a bit fast but normally I would attempt many songs one after the other whereas I repeated this one many times.

It got better but I stumble over gihigugma and ihatag - words with H close but not at the start of the word.

I am hoping to learn the song in the hour I have left before visiting a cebuano friend. Considering launching into it at an opportune or plain funny moment.

Song didn't finish but did some Matthew.

Forgot to mention that 2 cebuano speakers I visited used more cebuano with me as either being nice or easier for my wife and the other 2 to stick with cebuano and not code switch to English.

They just kind of did it. Maybe better accent, speaking or my use of cebuano tipped them into using cebuano mostly.
Last edited by Whodathunkitz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 124

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:23 am

Monday 6th January 2017

Mixed bag.

I'm not happy with my current work rate. Partly due to my free time tending to be when I'm already tired.

1 hour walking listening to Matthew 1 to 8.

Trying out different learning methods, reading about more.

Watched a politics show 25 minutes long several times in the background.

Bible: Wrote out unknown words. Looked many of them up and deconstructed the constituent parts and tried to better understand affixes.

I'm using a cebuano dictionary app now that uses Wolff's work. It translates common spelling to Wolff's.

I have one week before 'test' although the visit may be cancelled.

Spoke cebuano with my wife quite a lot yesterday when kiddo was at school and we went for a quiet meal. Very nice.

She uses it more with me and kiddo now and he understands more.

Reading up on hints from Aussie professor (name) on L2 learning. Some solid points well made.

I liked L-R as I did it. I particularly liked the work rate that was possible even when tired.

But some gaps still.

Vocab (wide reading) vs fluency (narrow but automatic use).

Concentrate on fluency and therefore repetitions of Matthew as I have the audio in my car. Specifically verses 2 to 12.

Aim is to get to a level that I can maintain through conversation, songs and YouTube by April.

Then start learning Spanish in April.

With aim of skipping basic course and start harder in October. I might need formal exam or level check in June.

Basic course meant for complete beginners. I think I'd be bored. Also adds a lot more time to qualification.
Last edited by Whodathunkitz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 124

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:44 pm

Tuesday 7th February 2017

Cebuano

30 minutes of Matthew Chapter 2 (repeated) in car - background

30 minutes of Matthew 2 to 12 car audio.

Different version of Matthew on web. Used imtranslator Chrome extension to look up unknown words. This saves them and I had a trial go at exporting to excel and getting unique unknown words. Then I did up to chapter 7. I will do 8 to 12 and then turn into spreadsheet, add missing translations and possibly turn into Memrise.

Printed out 120 word survival guide in English. Asked wife to translate to cebuano.

Memorised first two sentences in Mateo 2.

Spanish

Printed out 120 word survival guide.
0 x
SC We 21 Jun 17 to Su 31 Dec 17 (daily target words/minutes)
: 58 / 193 SC days:
: 161 / 1250 ES Read (6500):
: 370 / 9000 ES Video (47):

: 4 / 4 Cebuano L-R 4 Gospels:
Next year Cebuano SC


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