Whodathunkitz log French, Tagalog, Dutch, Cebuano, Spanish, Esperanto

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Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:26 pm

Cebuano

65 out of 130 pages of language / grammar guide read in 2 days.

Hardest bit done - verb conjugation. I understand it better now but not great yet. Best explanation yet though.

Rest of guide I know lots of and final 20 or so pages are summaries possibly written by others (different points of view / explanations are good).

Another 150 Memrise sentences. Only 3 problematic. One I got wrong. Two needed lots of attempts.

Verb conjugation is tricky for me. I find vocab learning easy.
0 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:53 am

Cebuano

First ever Skype lesson - first ever lesson!

Good:
pronunciation (this was a worry until recently)
clear / understandable
accurate
speed

Needs Work:
conjugating verbs
other affixes
sentences
prepositions
various

Next steps:
work towards long sentences
prepositions
various
verbs that look like nouns(?)

Subjects:
learning - how, what, why
how children develop

Goals:
To speak colloquial Cebuano at home and on holiday in July. Ruled out formal Bisaya.

Method (tutor):
Not quite sure yet - next session.

Method (overall / comprehensive):

Memrise / quizlet / ankidroid are good fill ins (no need to concentrate, even do while watching TV). I haven't updated the memrise app so that I can still use it without wifi (phone data).

L-R - some ability to concentrate, but can pause it.

Grammar / language guide takes real effort and quiet.

Tutor - need to dedicate time - hard with work and other commitments.

1) finish guide (70 pages)
2) Memrise / quizlet / ankidroid etc Cebuano expressions
3) I have magbinisaya kita primer 1. Skim/read it. A5 160+ pages especially grammar review page 111
4) repeat 2 a bit
5) MODERN-ish bible gospels (need to check order but I think Mark, Luke, Matthew). Perhaps just a few pages. This WRITTEN bible is 1970s translation and closer to modern usage. Previous version I used for listening-reading befuddled native Cebuano speakers.
6) l-r old Bible app. Language seems archaic but I have the audio/text linked. Best bet for listening / pronounciation practice.
Now more developed an idea...
i) Read English (1) - R1
ii) Listen Ceb-Old (2a) + Read Ceb-Old (2a) - L2a+R2a
iii) Listen Ceb-Old (2a) + Read English (1) - L2a+R1
iv) Read Ceb-New (2b) + Speak Ceb-New (2b) out loud - S2b
v) Write - anything in Cebuano - notes, words, anything - W2
vi) Speak out notes - S2
vii) Write Ceb-New - copy by hand, highlight interesting (for later lookups) - W2b

7) other media (Wikipedia, Duterte tv from when he was mayor)
8) Look at written notes and spot patterns, look up info
9) repeat / complete all above while having Skype sessions from a tutor.
3 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:07 pm

Cebuano

Tired today. Early Skype session plus remaining Memrise course. 1000 items reviewed in 3 or 4 days

Probably only 2% wrong plus a few needing a few tries due to flexible word order / imprecise question etc.

No grammar book work.
0 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:34 am

Spanish

Nada!


Cebuano

Probably 1500-1700 sentences done in total in just over a week on Memrise.

70 pages of guide done. 50 pages remains.

4 skype tutor sessions done so far. I'm not sure how to get the best out of them. I'm not the usual customer I'm guessing as I know quite a lot already but also have some big gaps. Today's (and previous) lessons was mostly me talking with being corrected and at the end some exercises on simple sentence construction which rapidly went to compound sentences and being asked how to construct some specific examples and some more info on verb conjugations and contradictions of my guide / previous understanding.

Reduced Skype sessions to 2 per week, I might reduce down to one depending on what I have to do. I get skype recordings of the sessions but I haven't looked/listened at/to them yet.

Homework of constructing some sentences - but I might collect some tricky Memrise / Tatoeba sentences where the grammar confuses me. Some of them are plain wrong or people trying to be clever I think.

Priority: Guide, then L-R intensive.
1 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:46 am

Went to the Philippine Embassy in London. Just waiting around outside mostly.

No-one speaking Cebuano! Arghh!


Dictionary - possibly useful - but not clear how many words it has. Useful bit are the examples at the bottom of an entry. Many seem to use the bible (contemporary or old version of language) plus LDS / Mormons - https://www.lds.org/languages/ceb?lang=ceb

https://glosbe.com/ceb/en/tunga

https://glosbe.com/ceb/en/kapuol
Example sentences with "kapuol",

* Limitahi ang paggamit sa teknolohiya kon gibati nimo ang kapuol, kasubo, kasuko, kabalaka, o kaluya, ug kon mobati ka’g bisan unsang emosyon nga magdala kanimo sa pagkatintal.

* Limit the use of technology when you are feeling bored, lonely, angry, anxious, stressed, or tired, or when you feel any other emotion that makes you vulnerable or susceptible.
0 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:49 pm

I've decided I need to underline/capitalise/emphasise the ANG (focus of the phrase). Otherwise I'll never know which affix to use and whether I'm ACTOR or OBJECT focus. And all too often, it's missed out as well... perhaps location/movement?

Kinahanglan ba siya mageskwela? - Does he have to go to school?
Oo, kinahanglan siya mageskwela. - Yes, he has to go to school.

Kinahanglan ba ako magpabunyag? - Do I need to be baptized?
Oo, kinahanglan ka magpabunyag. - Yes, you need to be baptized.

Kinahanglan ‘ko ikaw. - I need thee.
Kinahanglan nimo ang atong Manluluwas. - You need our Savior.

Nagkinahanglan siya sa imong tabang. - She needs your help.
Gikinahanglan nato ang Simbahan. - We need the Church.

Not best example as Kinahanglan isn't used as a verb so much. I'll find better examples.
0 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:06 pm

Spanish - nothing

Cebuano

Up to page 90 of 130 in guide, going to skip bits for now as it's vocab (I should know much of it) and dialogue (best practiced with my wife).

Skipped 91-103

So grammar refresh restarts at page 104.

Found several new memrise courses including verb roots, and will work on specific (hard) parts of them in my free time. 2200 words/sentences.

Some are well structured for me to cherry pick what I need:-
https://www.memrise.com/course/1499925/ ... finitives/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1462228/ ... cebuano-2/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1570046/ ... cebuano-3/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1593621/ ... cebuano-4/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1417914/ ... pressions/

https://www.memrise.com/course/1865200/ ... no-review/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1782852/ ... desh-list/
https://www.memrise.com/course/1607886/ ... a-phrases/

Currently 6264 words learned (all courses), 2700 need review (cebuano only, plus some are under Tagalog etc), 6,964,035 points on memrise (mostly Cebuano but maybe 1500 Spanish and Esperanto).



Found some new youtube videos on Cebuano grammar.

Al Hide - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR_efM ... YP_GldQ5Gg

Judy diyAddict - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvrByWKYoI0 (not watched - seems to be lots of English and not much detail / stuff I know already).

It's making me think there might be others that I can locate from the comments.

Wander through youtube:-

Bizarre Bisaya ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qex-OiQ85Vw

Keeping languages separate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPveTB9Iik (langfocus - How to Speak Multiple Languages Without Mixing Them Up)

Phonology
Imagine someone is speaking through you (actual person, Sarkozy for french, hard for Aphants)
100% commitment to the language - completely in - firm decision - don't switch
Imagine a scene for that language (not very useful for Aphants!)
Keep using languages - fresh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzwR3ddJ368 (How To Improve Your Listening Comprehension)
Listen every day
Videos + subtitles - especially ones aimed at learners - rewatch 2nd time without subtitles, avoid auto captions
Practice different levels - graded levels + native materials (relax, and sounds/word boundaries/patterns)
Speak with native speakers ($5-10 per lesson) - especially in an uncontrolled context (free speech?).

Polyglots (Gathering) learning differences - Lýdia Machová - Ten things polyglots do differently [EN] - PG 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROh_-RG3OVg
+ next - Steve kaufman
"Language mentor" / translator / new language every 2 years
Many different techniques (but don't mention time spent learning). Incredibly fast learning.
What is common:-
Nothing special about polyglots
Approach
Often didn't learn languages until adults
Belief in achieve
Develop own methods.
By themselves (key difference) - not spoon fed !!!!!!!!!!! Languages are learnt and NOT taught
Create own materials (flashcards, audio, books)
LOTS MORE TIME / INPUT - COMPELLING input - history audiobooks - authentic. Massive input.
Concentrate on listening (key/hard skill). Podcasts, tv.
Once you start speaking - understanding takes off and leads to great feeling of being free in the language
Not afraid of making mistakes!!! Relax, enjoy.
"Mastered art of simplification" - use 500 word vocab to get the job done
Polyglots learn in small chunks, maybe 1.5 hours a day regularly in chunks and ENJOY
Polyglots ENJOY language learning. Find ways to ENJOY the PROCESS. Engage with the language.
Follow interests you are interested in
Non-fiction easier than fiction.
Learn grammar through apps??
Mix it up, play.
NOTICE stuff - mix of repetition and NOVELTY.
Being reminded / revisit is good. Exposure to lots / patterns. Grammar after exposure. Don't feel guilty about forgetting.
Many polyglots seem to be anti-SRS.
Master common verbs.
Listening and reading most powerful?
Get to reading / listening to podcast in the language.
Process is the goal (enjoying). Interested in communicating.


Don't get tutor to correct during, send the corrections later.

Language Mentoring - http://www.languagementoring.com/
take own control, don't rely on teachers/courses
goldlist
bidirectional translations


Ideas:-
Fun
Quantity
Frequency (lots)
System (priorities / skills at differnet times)
Achieve high level / fluency before moving on - don't dabble (80% on new, 20% on maintenance)
2 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:36 am

Spanish - nada except music in car (not really listened to).

Esperanto - had to fight off the urge to restart! Where did that come from?!


Cebuano

I think I'm 2 weeks into my restart after a year's pause.

1 hour lesson about markers (ang, og, sa and related pronouns). I 'knew' most of this - but it needs practice. It isn't automatic, but I understand when I THINK it through.
Homework is to review skype recordings (all lessons) and do sentences covering markers and pronouns for the 3 classes of sentences.

130 page guide:-
Pages 1-90 read
Skipped 91-98 for now - vocab (I should know much of it)
Pages 99-104 - dialogues of different situations (practiced with my wife twice, she wants to do it later today too). Some mistakes in dialogues and old fashioned language, but good SPEAKING practice for me.
pages 105-130 is refresh of grammar. Still to do.

I shared the peace corps guide with my wife which has lots of dialogues in it and I'm hopeful we can have a go at this. Also bible is a further option (reading) - possibly as part of listening-reading outlined previously. The speaking bit can be to my wife / video / audio for native-speaker to comment on.

Some memrise - but course is not ideal as similar phrases with different variations, in a language which is very different to English and has flexible word order. The differences mean that small words, contractions and other variations of Cebuano / Bisaya can be present some of the time and the same English (nearly?) is used as a prompt to a different variation of Cebuano. When am I meant to use 'Kuhaa', 'Kuhai' and 'Pagkuha' (sp) for imperative? Not clear from the prompts. All are options. Addition of 'ra', 'man' for emphasis is pretty random. But I'm still grateful that the courses exist!

I need to practice my SPEAKING and LISTENING. I just thought of a game to do that - wife speaks Cebuano from a 6 page set of dialogues and I track down the reply from the other speaker.

With minority languages you have to be inventive - which can be a plus as you play with ideas and the language.
2 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):

elco2
White Belt
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:48 am
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (intermediate/advanced), Spanish (Intermediate), Biblical Greek (Advanced), French, Portuguese, Tagalog, Biblical Hebrew (low intermediate) Bisaya dialects, Romanian (Beginner), Russian (beginner), Mandarin (beginner)
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... ?TID=35337
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby elco2 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:29 pm

Whodathunkitz wrote:Went to the Philippine Embassy in London. Just waiting around outside mostly.,
* Limitahi ang paggamit sa teknolohiya kon gibati nimo ang kapuol, kasubo, kasuko, kabalaka, o kaluya, ug kon mobati ka’g bisan unsang emosyon nga magdala kanimo sa pagkatintal.

* Limit the use of technology when you are feeling bored, lonely, angry, anxious, stressed, or tired, or when you feel any other emotion that makes you vulnerable or susceptible.


Hmm I think you just taught me a new word. I asked around, and this word is known, but I hear "this is so kapoy" to convey the same idea. If these are the only kind of words you are having trouble with, it may be time to call off structured vocab learning and spend more time using it instead.
1 x

Whodathunkitz
Green Belt
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (basic spoken daily, best L2), Spanish (beginner, but can read), Esperanto (beginner and not maintained). Sometimes dabble with Dutch, Serbian, Slovak, Czech, German and Arabic.
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
x 315

Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm

elco2 wrote:
Hmm I think you just taught me a new word. I asked around, and this word is known, but I hear "this is so kapoy" to convey the same idea. If these are the only kind of words you are having trouble with, it may be time to call off structured vocab learning and spend more time using it instead.


My wife says her Cebuano has changed a lot over the years. More English, 'gay language' (tahi for poo - reverse ish for aitch).

I've just restarted Cebuano 2 weeks ago after a year of Spanish. But I do speak it at home every day.

I can communicate using root words and sometimes use the right affixes. I don't use the right pronouns, I tend to use ako/ ka/Siya in all cases.

I feel I may be on the cusp (edge) of a breakthrough.

Cebuano is my best (spoken, by far) language but I can read Spanish better.

I did about 2000 words (mostly cloze sentences) over the last 2 weeks on Memrise as a refresh/test.

Vocab isn't my focus now.

I think I have a way forward using l-r of bible(s) plus speaking and a tutor. I think that will maximize my learning without too much reliance on others.

The aim is to use it as much as possible at home (even with child), prior to 3 week holiday in Cebu/Davao in July.

That might be enough to tip me into being able to use it at home, mum always in Cebuano with kiddy understanding and using some.

Edit after chat with my wife... Typical usage
"Kapuol baya ana!" - "bored with that" - especially relating to same food again.
1 x
2018 Cebuano SuperChallenge 1 May 2018-Dec 2019
: 150 / 600 SC days:
: 6 / 1250 Read (aim daily 2000 words):
: 299 / 9000 Video (aim daily 15 minutes):


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