Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

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Whodathunkitz
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Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:37 pm

Nov 2014 started learning my first foreign language (properly).

English native speaker.

Soon I realised I had to learn how to learn.

Did some research. last one being Iversen's 3b.

Hard to get learning resources for Cebuano (bisaya / binisaya).

Little knowledge of grammar terms.

For these reasons plus holiday in Spain I've had forays into Spanish and Esperanto for 4 or 5 months each and did little for 3 months or so.

Mostly Memrise initially. Now at about 5000 words 5 million points from memory. Done most Cebuano courses. Started writing my own. Some public. Some made from tatoeba. Writing courses benefited my knowledge.

Found one textbook primer. Been leant an English to Cebuano dictionary (wrong way round) with hard discussion on affixes.

Various semi pro/amateur cebuano PDFs on the net.

Librivox and bible mp3s. Very old, deep bisaya language. Use in car.

2 years ago I did some Spanish on Memrise prior to holiday.

Recently did duolingo Spanish in 5 days (testing out) and wlingua A1 in 9 days. Thinking method Spanish in car.

Previously done duolingo Esperanto in 3 weeks without testing out.

Recently attended Cebuano Xmas parties and understood a lot. Spontaneous automatic short speech, thinking in Cebuano (interjections?). No proper sentences or conjugation.

Listening not bad. Speaking dreadful. Pronounciation worse.

Very little idea of verbal affixes. I thought I knew it but every question to a cebuano leaves me more confused. They've never been taught it formally, not used at school. Until Facebook virtually nothing written recently.

I know a lot of deep words that many cebuano natives (younger, city) don't. I sometimes get asked for the cebuano word for something by native speakers. Say a word and sometimes only 1 person in the group knows it. Older or provincial people normally.

I have a better feeling for sentence structure now. Helped by whole sentences on Memrise courses. Learning by expressions worked well later. Maybe I needed individual words first?

Last week, Following some posts and reinforced by reading Iversen's posts later, I printed off Wikipedia cebuano articles. I highlighted unknown/interesting words and will check on them later. Less than 10 percent highlighted but I haven't done intensive study. Knowing a root in the word and getting meaning from context was ok. Intensive study following themes might let me understand verbal affixes and more.

Printed off Wikipedia article on grammar and I knew most of it. Will print off other Wikipedia articles on the Language and see what themes to explore in the Wikipedia articles.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Since initial post have seen L-R method (listening-reading?).

Am trying it now, second day.

Very few Cebuano resources so started with bible, Mark.

Unfortunately there's nothing that grips me in the language that I can use as a great, captivating resource for listening in L2 and reading in both L1 and L2.

Ideally I'd have a novel or history book but that isn't practical.

Bible has advantage that I know it a bit (I've seen nativity plays and Ben Hur...).

It's available in shedloads (many) of languages and has been around for yonks (a long time).

If I got to know (better to know and like) the new testament then it's possibly a useful way of learning other languages for free, especially the unusual ones.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:18 am

My goals are

1) conversational and Facebook cebuano/bisaya

2) Spanish to a level that allows me to decide whether to do a language degree mainly in Spanish and ideally do a test to skip some levels.

3) Establish practices that allow me to learn languages efficiently and enjoyably.

4) Be able to teach my son Cebuano and Spanish

5) From 3 have the tools and experiences to allow me to choose whether and what languages I want to learn later.

I can see this as a lifetime hobby.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:49 pm

Put on a 2 hour long Jesus film dubbed in Cebuano.

I've watched before several times. This time only 30 minutes of it before I had to out. I understood more this time.

Have been doing L-R listening reading of one chapter L1 read then L2 read and audio then L1 read, L2 audio. L1 is English (I'm native), L2 Cebuano.

All aspects of L-R seem to have helped. Knowing the story in English plus some study of Mark gospel... Chapters 1-6.

Noticed that the film is based on the gospel of Luke. So that's one to concentrate on after I finish Mark.

Having several versions of the same story with different writing styles might help, possibly might hinder.

Currently ill so not feeling like doing much. As light relief I did Memrise review of 'intro to cebuano using expressions' which has over 1000 items. I completed this course some months ago.

I did one review session of 50 items.

None wrong. Struggled on one odd sentence.

Very pleased.

But these sentences are easy compared to colloquial spoken. Memrise tested words via multiple choice and rearrange some words from a list with spare unused words.

No typing on this test or I have it switched off on phone.
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Whodathunkitz
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Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:39 pm

I just finished Mark gospel. I think 3 or 4 days (ill, but some more time than I'd normally have.

Read one chapter in English (not a word for word translation, different versions).

Then read same chapter in Cebuano as I listen (bible.is android app on phone).

Then read English while listening to Cebuano.

I estimate around 2.5 hours cebuano audio, done twice to give around 5 hours listening practice plus 2.5 hours reading. That's more audio than I expected and normally actively listen to.

I have it on in the car and shadow a bit but not when the commute is too hectic. By shadow I mean say a few words out after I hear them, as dramatically as possible.

I'm able to follow the story with big gaps but don't understand many of the words.

I think I can continue with this method. Bit dull but not too bad. I had a few moments of wanting to know more, but not a page turner. I cannot think of a better book / audio in Cebuano.

It suits my situation. If I'm needed by family I can just pause and get back to it later.

I also did / will do some Memrise reviews, some grammar or verb affixes reviews and just before sleeping aim to read some printed out Wikipedia in something I know and am interested in (history biography or geography/countries).

Next gospel is Luke. A 2 hour film in Cebuano is based on Luke so I'll try to watch some now plus some Memrise during the long slow landscape shots.

After Luke L-R I'll rewatch the film.

In fact I will probably play it often as there aren't many better ones and I can just leave it on as background and launch 'Father Jack'-like phrases to scare the family and visitors.

I like to do overly dramatic ones 'Ang anak sa Dios!'.

'Pagbantay!' 'Hunung!'. Keeps the family on their toes, lets 4 year old hear some of the language.

The over dramatisation seems to help me and child remember and makes us laugh. I'm hoping he might join in some time.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:01 am

Busy tonight.

30 mins listening to Cebuano bible (Mateo) in car in morning.

Daytime reading polyglot PDF. Halfway through, maybe more.

Evening 45 minutes cebuano grammar/Language vids including the infamous 'verbal affixes' where he says 'i don't know how to teach this, learn from natives'.

But just4kiks stuff is the only grammar video series I've found. He does it well and I appreciate what he does. He's up to 37 subscribers now.

Memrise 50 item review. Nothing failed, one sentence needed a few goes. Otherwise just the flexible word order.

Tiny bit of Luke on bible.is app without English bible. Just listening. Might do a bit more before sleep.

I want my last thing at night to be l2/cebuano.

The method I've started using this week seems to be having an effect already. Random cebuano words or groups of words popping into my head.

I understood more of the CD in the car. I understood my wife a little better and nga/mga sounds better in my head and when speaking to myself.

Just need to keep at it.

The polish woman who inspired me to use this mentioned that 20 to 40 hours audio was needed before switching to L2 reading and L2 listening and getting rid of L1 (English) text. This is for polish speakers who are used to complex case systems.


I'm up to 5 hours L2 audio.

I'll assume I'll need 40 as it's my first L2 and it's not Indo European. She had a rule of thumb when to leave L1 text behind. I'll check it out again when I have many more L2 active audio hours.

Back to learning bisaya.
Balik sa nagkaton og binisaya. - wrong
Nagbalik ko nagtuon og binisaya. - better (edited)
Last edited by Whodathunkitz on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:30 pm

L1 = English (native)
L2= Cebuano / Bisaya / Binisaya / Sugboanon - lots of words for the same language (continuum of dialects?).

Last night, last thing, 15 minutes of Listening L2 while reading L2 (Luke Chapter1)

This morning, I had an appointment so left for work after traffic had died down.

At home I did a review session on Memrise (50 items). None wrong, struggled a couple of times with word order and once where I was trying to add a negative when it wasn't needed.

Something like "He forgot" I was trying to turn into "He didn't remember" but I was using the "to forget" verb. Minor!

Again I'm very pleased with this review sessions of a Memrise course I haven't touched since maybe November, possibly end of October.

30 minutes of listening to a Gospel I've never read but have often listened to VERY passively in the car (Mathew / Mateo).

As traffic was light, I could concentrate more than i would ever normally do, once I was on the motorway (freeway, fast, multi-lane road). Still keeping safe.

I found I understood more than usual and that words floated into my mind some as meanings and others as vague spellings.

I repeated words and small groups of words to myself to get a feel and pronunciation (some verbally but mostly in my head!!) was better.

I could clearly split most words / detect word boundaries. Bit more difficult in Cebuano as some people split words differently, there isn't a standard written way. A word in the middle might be clear or almost lost when spoken and could be separate or joined onto one of the other words when written.

"Word" might be the wrong, er, word. Sound might be better. Especially true of nga/ng linker.

Not quite right, but example

Kini nga adto
Kining adto
Kini ngadto

Helps to think of it as a sound / expression of meaning rather than a hard "word".

Part of breaking down my previous assumptions based on English?
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:48 pm

First three chapters of Luke.

L1 read
L2 read and L2 listen
L1 read and L2 listen.

Maybe 70 minutes of cebuano in total. Plus 25 minutes of English reading.

Different narrator, maybe actors for luke. The one who pretends to be the old men sounds like he's about to pop his clogs (die) at any minute.

Chapter 3 is great if you want to hear 'nga' 50 times.

24 chapters in Luke, 38 pages. I've done 6 tonight. About 287 pages in new testament assuming the app has all of them. Pretty sure it doesn't have old testament. After John I might do the next stage on the first four gospels (127 pages) but will have to look up what the stage is meant to involve. I think it's read L1, listen L2 in one go for all four gospels, then repeat once more.

Then I can repeat the process on the other half of the new testament.

After that I'll have a few mp3 of old style stories from librivox with archaic Language, alternative bible versions, old novels with archaic language and often Spanish spelling and a dictionary to work with.

My wife has mentioned a friend might send books from University of San Carlos cebuano studies centre.

Otherwise, bisrock, bispop, YouTube. TV patrol bisaya, Mindanao bisaya tv and Duterte's weekly show when he was mayor of Davao. Otherwise hard to find clear audio.

I can spot word boundaries and know how to pronounce all but the longest (composite?) Words. I could probably say them with a few tries.

They look a bit like the mad long German words.

Realised that bible.is app launches into Jesus film in Cebuano at point of text (maybe only in Luke). Interesting but not something I'm going to use in as the film doesn't match the English or full cebuano text that well I('m guessing).

I'll watch the film but not in this way. Either background while playing with kiddo (and joining in with saying bits of dialogue in dramatic/funny voice) or watch it as a film (popcorn optional).

Remembered that there's a Memrise worship language course.

Mighty, powerful, angel, flash/bang/wallop and other specialist words which may help. I probably did the course before but without context it may not have stuck.

I try to finish the night with something cebuano, preferably audio. So I might listen L2 / read l2.

I end up muttering/have cebuano thoughts as I go to sleep.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:17 am

Last night 21 item review of worship words on Memrise course (whole course!). Few unknown words which are also in the bible, so worth doing again.

Have read some posts on htlal etc by a cebuano learner (and many more languages).

Encouraging to see someone much more accomplished at Language learning struggling with aspects that confuse me too.

Followed them (assuming 'he' from 'Bob' name) ending up at http://polydog.org/index.php?threads/mu ... 393/page-5. I couldn't seem to create an account on my phone in order to post.

I'm interested in finding out if he has extra resources.

It's funny seeing him find the same things on librivox etc and I've tried to note resources he's explicitly mentioned but he has also hinted at some others.

His English hints at British/Australian/Kiwi (New Zealand).

If British he might have some pointers for resources near me (England).

Like me he's settled on the bible for audio and text as part of his strategy. Unlike me he knows it and reads it in Greek and other languages. He also did a lot of goldlist, something I started but didn't keep to. Mainly stopped as I need to sit at a desk really and pay attention in a way that's harder for me and also as I switched more towards massive input, lately audio as modern cebuano isn't a literary language. 'Ay kalami' and 'gwapo ang bata' on Facebook doesn't count but Facebook cebuano is almost another language with its shortcuts etc

This morning 50 item review. Got condolence wrong (payasubo or pahasubo), otherwise just word order and the emphasis words like 'man' and 'ba' which are often used but not always. Ba is normally questions but not always.

I kept doing 'excuse me' based answers for condolence IE pasayloa.
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Whodathunkitz
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:40 pm
Languages: English (N), Cebuano (beginner, best L2), Spanish (beginner), Esperanto (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5133&start=30
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Re: Whodathunkitz log Cebuano Spanish Esperanto

Postby Whodathunkitz » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:59 am

http://polydog.org/index.php?threads/mu ... 393/page-5 seems to require a facebook login. Not keen, I like to keep things separate.
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