A Words Enthusiast

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Monox D. I-Fly
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Monox D. I-Fly » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:47 pm

SGP wrote:
Monox D. I-Fly wrote:Ummm... I referred to Javanese, not Indonesian...
If you are referring to Javanese, one of two cases must apply:
- You are bilingual at least.
- I got your log's "I am an Indonesian and because its sentence structure is similar to English..." statement a bit wrong.

Welll, Javanese is located in Indonesia, so all Javanese is Indonesian. And yes, most Indonesians are at least bilingual. They distinguish between their mother language (Indonesian) and their native language (their regional language, in my case it's Javanese).
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:54 pm

Monox D. I-Fly wrote:Welll, Javanese is located in Indonesia, so all Javanese is Indonesian. And yes, most Indonesians are at least bilingual. They distinguish between their mother language (Indonesian) and their native language (their regional language, in my case it's Javanese).
No doubt that Java is a part of Indonesia ;). And that distinction between the mother language [*] and the native language isn't found in every single country. Although it can apply in some parts of India, and in several African countries.

[*] Monox and I don't use that word in this context as a synonym for "my mother's tongue" (i.e. native language). It is about the language that is the mother instead :).

Can you tell Axon anything about the secrets (or semi-secrets) of Java Coffee?
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Monox D. I-Fly
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Monox D. I-Fly » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:44 pm

SGP wrote:Can you tell Axon anything about the secrets (or semi-secrets) of Java Coffee?

Unfortunately, no. I only went after coffee since 2011, and even that consist of mostly instant coffee. I did, however, eat the fruit (not the seed) during my journey climbing down Mount Ungaran... And it didn't taste so good...
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Axon
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Axon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:15 pm

I've been starting out really slow with my new languages, for example Tamil, simply listening to parallel sentences on my train rides. The sounds are growing on me. After hearing some ~400 English-Tamil-Tamil sentence pairs I have figured out a handful of simple words. I don't yet know anything about the language except that it has a contrast between retroflex, dental, and alveolar nasals and liquids. I can barely hear the difference between some of these. There's very little Tamil learning content on YouTube but a wealth of movies either filmed in or dubbed into Tamil. Does anyone happen to know if the Tamil on 50Languages/book2 is spoken or formal?

I watched the Fluent Forever pronunciation videos on MSA, which have been really helpful. Other than that I still haven't actually started listening to any content, though I do practice some of the sounds sometimes.

As for Thai, these days it actually seems less interesting than Tamil, probably because the nearby Thai restaurant is closed for the new year. I watched a couple of Stuart Jay Raj videos about pronunciation and have a little bit better mental model of the tones.

I watched a lot of Dogen's videos and I think I'll shell out for his (extremely comprehensive and very cheap) Japanese phonetics course. Another question: what's the deal with the Cortina Japanese recordings? To my amateur ear it sounds like a totally different pitch accent from other materials I have.

I suppose with these several new languages I'm taking a very Lazy Fist approach, wanting to get the phonology into my head before anything else. I have nobody to speak most of these with and I'm not anxious to find them. How different I am now from the Axon of 2014, learning Romanian in his dorm room with no audio resources and looking for Polish international students to practice phrases with.

But speaking of speaking, this week I was mistaken for a native of Chinese (!) twice (!!) by two different street food vendors. I was buying the same thing both times, interestingly enough, a type of slow-roasted potato that is cut in half and slathered with delicious sauce. I've also been continuing to read and do vocabulary flashcards, and sometimes I have breakthrough moments of surprising ability. By that I mean I start a complicated idea and can get through the whole thing without pausing or correcting myself, whereas a few months ago I would falter after one or two clauses. Naturally, there are also moments where I stumble and stutter on the simplest things.

And still reading in Spanish most days. 41% through my book and most pages now have fewer than three lookups.
Recent lookups:
pulido - refined, polished
del tirón - all at once, in one go
bobo - silly
el meollo del asunto - the heart of the matter
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Axon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:31 pm

Not much interesting to say for the last few days.

Tamil is beginning to lose its shine, though I've probably done another five or six hours of listening in the last ten days. It doesn't sound as alien anymore, certainly, and I can repeat short phrases without having any idea what they mean. Listening only to mostly parallel sentences for 10-15 hours has really helped me tune my ear to the sound system. I flipped through a minimal pairs Anki deck and have had no problems so far distinguishing anything. Of course that doesn't mean I would actually say it right, so I'd like to start shadowing at some point. Probably February when I have a little more time.

I really, really, like the idea of knowing Thai and other languages of mainland Southeast Asia such as Burmese and Khmer. But where learning Tamil is a puzzle because I have no idea what Dravidian languages are like, I know that Thai is another isolating tonal language with grammar in the same ballpark as Cantonese, Mandarin, Vietnamese, Indonesian, etc. So although I have dutifully listened to Thai parallel sentences the last few days, I have nothing to spark my interest. Perhaps if I learned the script and worked with some of the aakanee recordings? Why do I have the feeling of wanting to collect, to go beyond the already quite considerable challenges of the languages I mentioned?

And often when I spend time on Thai I think "you could just improve your Vietnamese instead" and so I listen to more Vietnamese and find myself slowly moving more and more vocabulary from "recognizable" to "internalized." I'm probably going to visit Vietnam in mid-February for a handful of days (let me reiterate that Vietnam constantly seems right there to me even though it is several hours' train away) and I feel pretty sure that I'll do all right. I'll do a lot better once I learn the 250 word list I curated from my two favorite textbooks.

German, Russian, and Spanish all get attention. I can't really shadow Spanish at speed for more than a few sentences, even though I can understand all but a handful of words in a video about the history of the Olympics. Maybe with more warmup? I was inspired by MamaPata's log in French and had the brief delusion that I should do some writing in Russian. Я знаю, что один -- лушее чем ноль, но мне кажется, что у меня никогда нет времены. Хм. Это не как труднй, что я подумал. Good to know that I'm not wasting my time on Russian Progress.

I can reliably understand the meaning behind light Chinese travel articles, but just as reliably there are upwards of 30 new words in each one. These words are piling up in Pleco flashcards and I keep telling myself that I'll transfer them to paper at some point. Also, I bought a handwriting practice book for seven-year-olds and it's perfect for my level. It still has Pinyin and I recognize something like 60-70% of the characters anyway. The section I'm on is all classic poems and idioms that I've never heard of. Do all my second grade students really know this stuff? (Yes.)
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Axon wrote:German, Russian, and Spanish all get attention.

Damit habe ich nicht gerechnet. Also wegen Deutsch. Ich dachte, es wäre bei dir eine "rusty" Sprache geworden, oder täusche ich mich? Jedenfalls... es gibt hier jemanden, der mehr als nur gerne immer wieder ein paar Tipps geben würde.

Und übrigens: heute habe ich den Vollmond tagsüber erblickt. Siehst du so etwas auch manchmal dort, wo du lebst?
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Sizen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:31 pm

Axon wrote:I watched a lot of Dogen's videos and I think I'll shell out for his (extremely comprehensive and very cheap) Japanese phonetics course. Another question: what's the deal with the Cortina Japanese recordings? To my amateur ear it sounds like a totally different pitch accent from other materials I have.

On the late side, but here I am anyway.

This sure is some weird stuff. The speaker in the recordings still distinguishes between くゎ and か. I thought this difference went away much earlier, but after doing some research, apparently, the differentiation had disappeared by the early 19th century in most of Japan, but surprisingly, apparently stuck around in Kyoto (and likely the surrounding area) until the early 20th century.

As for the pitch accent, every word seems to have a strange rising intonation, almost like a question. This rising is so strong that it seems, to my ear, to even replace the accent in the occasional word that should normally have a down step, like 午後 gogo and 前 mae (which are even shown as having a down step in the Japanese-English dictionary at the back of the book, so it's not just the old pronunciation). Strangely enough, the conversation is better, but it still has some of that rising intonation in places.

Though, to be fair, I'm no expert in pitch accent. I only started looking into it last year after many years of neglecting it, so I've still got a ways to go and don't always hear everything.
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby Axon » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 am

Sizen wrote:
This sure is some weird stuff. The speaker in the recordings still distinguishes between くゎ and か. I thought this difference went away much earlier, but after doing some research, apparently, the differentiation had disappeared by the early 19th century in most of Japan, but surprisingly, apparently stuck around in Kyoto (and likely the surrounding area) until the early 20th century.

As for the pitch accent, every word seems to have a strange rising intonation, almost like a question. This rising is so strong that it seems, to my ear, to even replace the accent in the occasional word that should normally have a down step, like 午後 gogo and 前 mae (which are even shown as having a down step in the Japanese-English dictionary at the back of the book, so it's not just the old pronunciation). Strangely enough, the conversation is better, but it still has some of that rising intonation in places.

Though, to be fair, I'm no expert in pitch accent. I only started looking into it last year after many years of neglecting it, so I've still got a ways to go and don't always hear everything.


Thanks very much! I figure if my total-newcomer ear hears something a little off, and your more advanced ear can actually pinpoint some odd parts, I'd better stay away from the course.

SGP wrote:Damit habe ich nicht gerechnet. Also wegen Deutsch. Ich dachte, es wäre bei dir eine "rusty" Sprache geworden, oder täusche ich mich? Jedenfalls... es gibt hier jemanden, der mehr als nur gerne immer wieder ein paar Tipps geben würde.

Und übrigens: heute habe ich den Vollmond tagsüber erblickt. Siehst du so etwas auch manchmal dort, wo du lebst?


Autsch! Ich bin mir nicht sicher, warum du den Eindruck hast, dass Deutsch bei mir eine "rusty" Sprache geworden ist. Vielleicht von meiner Grammatik? :D :D :(

Diese drei Bezeichnungen sind eigentlich schon ein Jahr alt, also mit einem Jahr Übung sind die eingerostigste Sprachen nicht genauso röstig als vorher. Der Eingerostigkeit-Unterschied zwischen z.B. Deutsch und Russisch ist immer noch sehr groß, aber mit Spanisch habe ich mehr Fortschritt gemacht. Meine Schwierigkeiten in Spanisch sind meistens mit Konjugationen, aber mit Deutsch ist es etwas anders. Ich glaube immer noch, dass ich Deutsch kann, also wann ich fange an zu schreiben, versuche ich so wenig Fehler wie möglich zu machen.

Im Endeffekt schreibe ich sehr langsam und warscheinlich nicht gerade so elegant, als ich hoffe. Heißt das rusty? Ich zögere, das zu sagen, weil aus irgendeinem Grund ich fühle mich als ob es ein Fehler ist, mein Deutsch rusty werden zu lassen.

Hier im Südwesten Chinas gibt es auch Vollmond am Tag! Die Richtung des Halbschattens ist ein bisschen umgekehrt im Vergleich zu der, was ich sehe in den USA. Hier nimmt der Mond ab und zu von unten nach oben!
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:44 am

Axon wrote:Autsch! Ich bin mir nicht sicher, warum du den Eindruck hast, dass Deutsch bei mir eine "rusty" Sprache geworden ist. Vielleicht von meiner Grammatik? :D :D :(
Nein, ganz sicher nicht deshalb! Sondern weil ich dachte, von dir selbst gelesen zu haben, dass du so etwas gesagt hättest. Aber ich habe extra "... oder täusche ich mich?" hinzugefügt. Kopf hoch ;).

Außerdem... nur so zur Info: ich habe das vorherige Post auch geschrieben, ohne deine Sprachliste erneut durchzulesen. Denn in dieser steht ja, dass bestimmte Sprachen als "rostig" bezeichnet werden, aber Deutsch ist gar nicht unter ihnen...

Zwei "großes Lächeln"-Smileys, aber auch noch ein dritter, der etwas anderes bedeutet? Falls mein vorheriges Post dich auch nur irgendwie gekränkt hätte, tut mir leid, colega. Bin in einzelnen Fällen ein Elefant im Porzellanladen (das ist so eine Redewendung), ohne es zu bemerken... Aber nun zur deutschen Sprache selbst.

Ich glaube immer noch, dass ich Deutsch kann, also wann ich fange an zu schreiben, versuche ich so wenig Fehler wie möglich zu machen.
Und ich würde dir hier auch ganz sicher nicht widersprechen. Als ich bereits früher mal gemerkt hatte, welche Deutschenkenntnisse (bei dir) vorhanden sind, hatte ich mich aus einem ganz bestimmten Grund ein wenig gewundert. Und zwar, weil "der durchschnittliche Englisch-Muttersprachler, der German gelernt hat", oft um einiges weniger weit wäre, als z.B. du es bist.

Und übrigens... in deinem aktuellen Post ist mir nur eine einzige Sache aufgefallen, zu der ich überhaupt wirklich etwas sagen würde. (Außer du würdest "SGP's Korrektur-Newsletter" bestellt haben, so wie - naja, so ziemlich - es ein, zwei andere Personen hier im Forum getan haben). Bei diesem Punkt geht es lediglich um "röstig". Wegen dem Umlaut erinnert das irgendwie an (das Verb) "rösten". Das eigentliche Adjektiv wird mit einem gewöhnlichen O geschrieben. Aber die Umlaut-Regeln sind ohnehin nicht das Allerleichteste. Selbst natives of Deutsch machen hier immer wieder mal Fehler.

Im Endeffekt schreibe ich sehr langsam und warscheinlich nicht gerade so elegant, als ich hoffe. Heißt das rusty? Ich zögere, das zu sagen, weil aus irgendeinem Grund ich fühle mich als ob es ein Fehler ist, mein Deutsch rusty werden zu lassen.
Sowas heißt bei Weitem nicht automatisch rusty. Wenn ich Spanisch schreibe (was ich momentan auch gar nicht tue), dann finde ich bei mir selbst etwas vergleichbares vor. Trotzdem würde ich es nicht als wirklich rostig bezeichnen, weil auch mit einer Lupe keine roten Flecken auf dem Metall erkennbar sind.

Hier im Südwesten Chinas gibt es auch Vollmond am Tag! Die Richtung des Halbschattens ist ein bisschen umgekehrt im Vergleich zu der, was ich sehe in den USA. Hier nimmt der Mond ab und zu von unten nach oben!
Habe eben darüber nachgedacht, ob es auf bestimmte Länder begrenzt ist, dass die Sonne und der Mond gleichzeitig zu sehen sein können. Und die Sache mit der nördlichen und südlichen Hemisphäre...finde ich immer wieder beeindruckend, welche Gemeinsamkeiten und Unterschiede es gibt! Da gibt es ja noch einen anderen Punkt... das mit dem Wasser, d.h. ob es sich nach links oder nach rechts dreht, wenn es aus dem Waschbecken abfließt. Weißt du, was ich meine?
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Re: A Words Enthusiast

Postby aravinda » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:54 am

Axon wrote:... Does anyone happen to know if the Tamil on 50Languages/book2 is spoken or formal?
A couple of decades ago, I studied a little (spoken) Tamil to take a very basic government exam (interview). It was mainly for the purpose of attending to monolingual Tamil patients. Another decade later I studied spoken Tamil while attending classes. Despite being relatively easy (because of my language/cultural background) and having enough native speakers around to speak with, I never progressed beyond the beginner stage due to various reasons. So take what I say with a grain of salt. Awaiting a definitive answer from a more knowledgeable person, I just looked at the words for family members given in unit 2. I don’t recall learning or hearing some of these words. Also, as with other languages spoken in the region, in speaking in nonformal settings, people would almost always use the specific words for younger/elder brother/sister not generic brother/sister (in contrast to English, French etc). For example, people would normally say தம்பி (younger brother) or அண்ணன் (elder brother) but not சகோதரன் (brother). So I find it strange the unit doesn’t give those terms. I suspect the course uses a more formal register of the language. However, as I’m not familiar with Tamil spoken in other countries, there’s a slight (unlikely) chance this maybe purely due to a dialectal difference.
I think, if you can find it, Assimil Le tamoul sans peine would suit your purpose better. I haven’t used it myself but as far as I can see, the course looks very well done.
Edit: Le tamoule tamoul
Last edited by aravinda on Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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