I read old books - Pfifltrigg Pi

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StringerBell
Blue Belt
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Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
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Latin: beginner
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby StringerBell » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:08 am

I'm curious to hear what you think of the Assimil course for Italian, and how well it does or doesn't prepare you for the intermediate classes. Are you also planning to do some grammar study before those classes? If so, do you have a plan in place for that already?

You might not have time or interest, but there's a free beginner class via edX.org for Italian Language and Culture. https://www.edx.org/course/italian-lang ... e-beginner
I did one of their advanced Italian courses awhile ago and it was really good. I don't know if you've ever used edX.org, but you sign up for free and you can basically do as much or as little of the lessons and activities as you want, there's no commitment or pressure to do it all. Could be worth a peek.
0 x
Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 7 / 10
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:41 am

I might get the Hugo's course if only to have as a reference and poke at that as well. In addition, if I remember correctly, the beginners and intermediate courses use the same book, so I might see if I can get that at my university bookstore and look at it as well. Quite frankly, if the other language courses here are anything to judge by, "intermediate" will be pretty basic, but we shall see. I fully expect, however, to have to do most of the heavy lifting on my own. But that's fine, given I do that sort of thing for fun anyways. :D
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:44 pm

Aujourd'hui, il y avait la dernière séance de notre échange linguistique. En fait, je suis un peu triste : je suis devenu très affectueux de ma partenaire. Cependant, on va rester en contacte, et, après que le semestre se termine, nous allons lire ensemble en nos deux langues. J'ai appris aussi qu'il y a plus que trois années elle a étudié l'allemand. Je me sens un peu déçu que je ne le savais pas quand j'ai décidé d'apprendre l'italien en place de l'allemand. Eh bien, ce n'est pas sa faute, et je ne suis pas sûr que ça aurait changé ma décision.

Dans l'après-midi, il y avait mon cours du latin. C'était un peu bizarre : il semblait que la professeure, à la fois, a insulté et complimenté mon accent : je ne suis pas sûr exactement qu'est-ce que c'était une plaisanterie et qu'est-ce que c'était sérieux. En addition, je commence à devenir énervé avec la professeure. Elle a un vrai tallent pour gâcher du temps.
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
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Location: Amerique du Nord
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Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:06 pm

Hier, beaucoup est passé pour moi. Je ne vais pas en parler, parce que ce n'est pas relevant à ce que je dirai, mais une des conséquences est que je me suis rendu compte qu'il me faut beaucoup améliorer mes études linguistiques et donner beaucoup davantage d'effort et davantage d'engagement. En fait, mes niveaux en français et en latin sont vraiment dégoutants comparés à les niveaux que je devrais être atteint. En addition, je ne fais presque rien avec l’ukrainien, et ça, aussi n'est pas acceptable. Ergo, dès qu'aujourd'hui, j'étudie plus systématiquement, plus intensivement et je vais gâcher moins du temps. En addition, je crois que je vais mettre à jour icitte chaque journée, ou, au moins, avec beaucoup plus de fréquence (?) pour me garder responsable.

Français:
Aujourd'hui, il y avait mon cours du français. On a terminé officiellement le roman, Une pièce montée, qu'on lisait. Comme j'ai déjà dit, je l'ai déjà terminé, et c'était vraiment formidable. Demain, je vais regarder le film, et on va discuter ça mercredi. J'ai entendu dire que le film n'est pas assez bon, mais on va voir. En addition, j'ai lu les vingt-deux premières pages de La princesse des Clèves, par Mme. de la Fayette, qu'on lit pour mon cours de la littérature française. On va en parler demain.

Latina:
Hodie cursus meus linguae Latinae erat. Cursu, versionem simplificatam In Verres Ciceronis legimus. Michi placet In Verres, quia salus est et bonus ad loquendum. Debemus traductionem facere et partem agere ut consultus die Mercurii. Sessio cursus bona erat hodie: professora multum tempus non adsumpsit.

Quoque, michi valde placet ut ego tanta verba scribere possem. Linguam Latinam valde amo.

Englissh:
No, that's not a typo, just a way "English" was spelled in the days of Chaucer. Speaking of Chaucer, I picked back up where I left off with memorizing The Canterbury Tales. I've almost got the section about the Monk down, but it still takes a bit of practice. At this rate it will take me quite some time to finish memorizing the prologue, but it doesn't really matter: I'm doing it for fun and bragging rights, more than anything else. (And I sometimes think that if I start with something easy like this, in several years I'll be capable of memorizing all of Homer, like a real bard, but that's another story and I need to, you know, actually learn Greek to do that..) Anyhow, I also need to get an edition which has the rest of the surviving text, as mine only contains the first fragment.

Українска мова:
I don't know enough Ukrainian to write in it, so I shall not. Anyhow, I did my first pass-through of section 3 of competency two of my Peace Corps Ukrainian book. (The audio which I downloaded with it does not seem to correspond to the book, but rather be intended for use separately, so I'll do that after. I'm still trying to figure out how to best use the book, tbh, but I'm learning something, so that's better than nothing. I'm also getting much more than I payed for, since I did not pay anything, so I really should not complain.

Furthermore, I bought some Ukrainian Cyrillic keyboard stickers, and they at last arrived a few days ago, so I could put them on my keyboard. I am quite happy with them, even if the fact that my keyboard is not all the same colour means that four of them don't really show up. I shall probably get some more in a different colour for those keys this summer, as they were quite inexpensive. They are obviously stickers, and the fact that they are smaller than the keys themselves makes them even more obvious: oh well, they are more than good enough, and I can still flex on any mono-orthographic Latin alphabet users in the area whenever I pull out my computer, and that is the important part.

In addition, someone at my church gave me a Ukrainian-English bilingual prayerbook, so I have begone memorizing things from that. Learning by heart a text which you already know by heart in (multiple) different languages is quite an interesting experience, to be honest. I can not really explain it, but you should try it.

Lastly, Ukrainian has already taught me an important lesson - I do not like learning languages. I honestly do not even really like languages. What I like is literature, history and culture, and to access those requires languages. That said, the slog through my first non-Romance language (my year and a half love affair with Irish aside) feels really daunting, and actually being able to use Ukrainian with my fellow parishioners and/or read Ukrainian literature seems so far away, along an arduous road which down which I really do not want to travel. However, I am very tenativly planing a trip to Киев and Чернігів planned for next summer, so I should probably get in good shape linguistically for that.

TL:DR
I'm a changed man who is going to take my languages more seriously even though I do not really like to, or something. We'll see. Excuse my rambling.
Last edited by PfifltriggPi on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
6 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:34 am

Français:

Mon amie était malade aujourd'hui, donc mon course de la littérature française était moins intéressante. On a parle un peu d'Henri II, qui fut le roy a l'époque quand Mme de la Fayette a mis ses livres, et on a discuté un peu la partie du livre qu'on a lue pour aujourd'hui. En addition, j'ai regardé l'adaptation en film d'Une pièce monté. Je n'ai pas les mots pour décrire comment elle était terrible. J'ai hurlé en haute voix multiple fois en le regardant, et, en fait, il ma fallu l’arrêter reposer de le regarder pour quelques minutes avant que (?) continuer. On a changé tout, et je l'ai trouvé dégoûtant.

Latina:
Hodie non multa latine feci. Hæc dicta, colloquium habeo cum alliis personis per Discord latine. Bene loqui non possum, nec bene intellegere, set valde amœna erat, et necesse est michi exercere. Credo nos alterum colloquium habituros esse die Jovis. Michi placet multe latine loqui.

Українська мова:
I did the forth section of part two today. The vocab was a bit more useful today, one discussed how to ask permission to enter, and apologize for being late, something which happens to me often, on account of the trains. In addition, I am continuing to attempt to memorize from my prayer book.
Last edited by PfifltriggPi on Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

Ezra
Yellow Belt
Posts: 92
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby Ezra » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:48 am

Michi should be written as "mihi"! :)
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1000 pages in Latin: 439 / 1000
1000 pages in Hebrew: 779 / 1000
5000 pages in Italian: 509 / 5000

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
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Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:16 pm

Ezra wrote:Michi should be written as "mihi"! :)


Not if you use Medieval or Renaissance Latin! :)
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:48 pm

Français:
Dans mon cours du français, on a discuté le film d'Une pièce montée. J'étais content d'entendre que presque tout le monde l'a détestée. C'était vraiment horrible. En addition, on a chanté un peu, et ça c'était l'fun. Finalement, je continue à lire La Princesse de Clèves.

Українська:
I finished the second section of the Peace Corps book, and transcribed all the dialogue using the scriptorium method. Now my hand hurts.

I'm still impatiently waiting for my Italian book to arrive.
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
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Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Mon May 13, 2019 11:34 pm

Je suis revenu!

J'étais absent pour mes examens finals à l'université. Astheure, je suis encore chez mois, et je retourne au travail demain. J'aurais, donc beaucoup plus de temps pour lire et étudier. Voyons voir comment je l'utilise.

Italiano :
My book came shortly before exams started, but I didn't time to more than poke at it until today. I've done through lesson four, and so far it's been fine. I am beginning to see the differences orthographically and phonetically with French, and my reading ability is improving quite quickly. I can understand spoken/sung ok, allowing, as always, for my hearing problems. Speaking is still an impossibility, however, in part due to my having a French accent so thick it can be cut with a knife. Italian is quite nice, though. I look forward to reading extensively in it.

Українска мова:
I re-read and reviewed all the sections of my Peace Corps book I'd already done, and was quite pleased to discover I could sight-read most of it. Again, I can understand much better than I can produce. I'm still working on memorizing the Pater noster, and my ability to fluidly read Cyrillic is improving slowly but surely.
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка

PfifltriggPi
Orange Belt
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Amerique du Nord
Languages: Uses daily: Français (heritage) English
Reads: Castellano, Català, Italiano, Lingua Latina
Studying: Українська мова, Ελληνικά
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4860
x 311

Re: Languages Without Borders - Pfifltrigg Pi

Postby PfifltriggPi » Sat May 18, 2019 1:48 pm

I'm just putting this here so I can find it again later when I want it.

Iversen wrote:Well, I studied French at the university of Århus in the 70s, and we had a teacher who was an expert in the old forms of the Romance languages and probably one of the leading experts in the field at the time (Poul Skårup). And of course he did the courses in Ancient French and Ancient Occitan, which not only meant that we had a teacher who knew everything worth knowing about those languages (he could even speak Ancient French!), but also a teacher who himself was an active researcher - and I have always liked to see languages from the standpoint of a linguist. These were however only meant as reading courses with no intention of teaching us how to write let alone speak those old languages, but still a good foundation. In Italian and the languages of the Iberian peninsula there is not quite as much need of courses in the old forms because they are closer to the modern forms.

With one exception all my paper books about the two languages date back to those courses, and they may not be available any more. The exception is the "Initiation à l'ancien français" by Sylvie-Tacchela from 2006 (Hachette), which still may be available - and a good starting point for a homelearner. The main items among the rest are the following ones:

Ancien Français:
Dictionary: "Larousse Ancien Français" by A.J.Greimas, which is more than enough to suit my needs (if I had been a scholar I would have tried to add the one by monsieur Godefroy).
Grammars: "Précis historique de la language française" by Knud Togeby, Akademisk forlag (in Denmark) and "Petite Syntaxe de l'Ancien français" by Lucien Foulet, Champion 1930 (bought second-hand), supplemented by morphological tables compiled by my teacher
Main text collection: "Anthologie de la litérature française du moyen âge" by Groult, Emond, Muraille

Old Occitan:
Dictionary: "Petit dictionnaire provençal-français" by Lévy, 1909 (bought second-hand and once the property of the eminent Danish scholar Sandfeld)
Grammar: "Grammaire provençale" by Jules Payot, 1932 (also second-hand - and once again once it belonged to an eminent old Danish scholar, but this time his name was Blinkenberg)
Textcollection etc.: "Introduction à l'étude de l'Ancien Provençal" by Hamlin, Ricketts, Hathaway

The complete and unabridged dictionary by Godefroy is on the internet, and I have actually used it to check the validity of some of my guesses, but most of the language materials you find on the internet are at best second-rate. The exception is of course the text collections, where it is possible to find a fair number of good sources.

And now to the burning question: how to start of restart your studies in a dead language. I think the main key to succes is to study bilingual texts intensively and in conjunction with intensive, but fastidious study of grammars, and once you are far enough, to read a lot without caring to much about petty details. The secondary key is always to think: could I end up writing/speaking this language? If you have that attitude you are more likely to focus on the main structures and leave totally insignificant translation problems aside.
1 x
Please correct my errors in any tongue.

"Зброя - слово." - Леся Українка


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