Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

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kraemder
Green Belt
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Languages: English (N)
Japanese (JLPT N2)
German (read several books)
Spanish (read a couple books)
Korean (studying for about a year semi seriously)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1204
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby kraemder » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:48 am

I’m intrigued by your focused memorization techniques. I think I read something similar about how you can learn more words overall if you try to overreach a bit and don’t mind not retaining 100% of what you study (this drives a lot of people crazy... everyone’s a perfectionist). I think it makes sense and reminds me of when I just read lots and lots of stuff in german. Totally looked up more words than one could possibly expect to learn at once but it was still effective.
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Xelian
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Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:00 am

Thanks so much for the explanation and quotes jeff_lindqvist!

It is nearly what I'm doing, but I'm taking it a step further and trying to retain ALL of the words in the set, and in really large amounts. Fanatic isn't wrong! In fact, he's on to something grand. From my experience, the most retention occurs during the first exposure to the set. It also reminds me of Steve Kaufmann's LinQ concept of reading lots of text and just noticing repeating words rather than trying to remember every new word you see. (I use this method whenever I'm reading in another language now).

I also feel like it is almost useless to try and focus hard on concepts to try and get them 100% right. I've been guilty of this for my entire language learning experience, I'll read grammar books that are too easy for me, and I'll try to memorize specific peculiarities of a language that I never understood. This never gives me much gain in the end. It is better for your brain to focus on new material, the old stuff will come back again and again if it is truly important for you to know (and I have to be constantly reminded of that)!
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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:02 am

kraemder wrote:I’m intrigued by your focused memorization techniques. I think I read something similar about how you can learn more words overall if you try to overreach a bit and don’t mind not retaining 100% of what you study (this drives a lot of people crazy... everyone’s a perfectionist). I think it makes sense and reminds me of when I just read lots and lots of stuff in german. Totally looked up more words than one could possibly expect to learn at once but it was still effective.


Thanks for the message!

In my experience, overreaching is working quite well for me now. When I was a beginner in Japanese, not so much (I was also younger and more of a perfectionist then). But now, it is very effective! Sometimes the brain remembers random words that we think aren't so memorable..
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: 84 / 1000 Japanese Pages Read

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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:17 pm

After some speed-memorizing testing, I've come out with a few findings which I'm very excited to share... To start, I'll give some statistics. I didn't complete the second or the third set yet, but am working on them, and have enough data to share my findings:

Data:

Set 1: 61 (N3 words)
First attempt: 20 (33%) - 20 words learned
Later attempt: 30 (49%) - 10 words learned
Morning: 47 (77%) - 7 words learned
Afternoon (with lots of quizlet drilling): 61 (100%)
Total time: Unknown

Set 2: 100 (N3 words)
Remembered words first attempt: 30 (30%) - 30 words learned
Remembered words second attempt: 49 (49%) - 19 words learned
Remembered words third attempt: 61 (61%) - 12 words learned
Remembered words fourth attempt: 73 (73%) - 12 words learned
Remembered words fifth attempt: 82 (82%) - 9
Total time: 3 hours 30 minutes

Set 3: 340 (N3, from books, assorted words)
Remembered words first attempt: 98 (29%) - 98 words learned
Remembered words second attempt: 142 (42%) - 44 words learned
Total time: 2 hours 40 minutes

Averages:
Average first try retention (updated for sets 1,2,3): 31%
Average second try retention (updated for sets 1,2,3): 47%
Average third try (next day) retention (updated for sets 1,2): 69%
Average fourth try retention (updated for sets 2): 73%
Average fifth try retention (updated for sets 2): 82%

Notes:
-From testing, the more words attempted, the more words will be retained in the memory.
-Words in the beginning and ending of each set of words seem more easily recalled.
-The greatest amount of words retained will be after the first try, and for me it is currently around 30% of the set.
-The following sessions appear to increase the amount of words retained, but the number of extra words retained are reduced by about 10 per session, depending on the amount of time away from the set. For example, when learning 100 words, the first try is 30 words, the next try is 49 words (only 19 new words retained), and the next is 61 (only 12 new words learned). This may be due to the mind rejecting words because of the perceived difficulty of the words, the indistinguishability of the words from already known words, or due to the mind rejecting greater retention of the same set over time.

So, not a 100% solid method just yet, and my data isn't as scientific as it could be, but it's at least tracking my abilities and progress! I'm going to be pursuing other sets that I create, and I'd like to eventually learn all of my vocabulary this way or in an even more efficient manner if I find one. I do find that although you can learn a lot of words at first from big sets, it's a bit more strenuous than smaller sets. To review them it is a lot more effort than say, even 100 words. 200 words may be a better size for a set, since it's still going to let you learn a larger than usual amount, but yet not as annoying to do as a 340 word set.

Also as a side note, I'm starting two language classes tomorrow. 4th year Japanese and 2nd year Swedish. Wish me luck! I'll be posting my progress about every week or so.
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Elenia
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Elenia » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:17 am

Hey Xelian. Just wondering if you've tried putting the unlearned words into a different set? I'm imagining that, if after you've done four rounds on three same set, you would take the remaining unlearned words and put them into a new set. A new set of surrounding words might just suddenly make them 'click' for you. If so, then you know that you're brain is becoming resistant to the repetition, if not, you can put those words aside for special attention later.

Also, what are you doing with the words once learnt? Are you keeping your lists so that you can review them in future? Do you plan on making an effort to use them actively, or do you want them ready in your passive vocabulary?

Good luck with the first day back at school!
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Xelian
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Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:14 pm

Elenia wrote:Hey Xelian. Just wondering if you've tried putting the unlearned words into a different set? I'm imagining that, if after you've done four rounds on three same set, you would take the remaining unlearned words and put them into a new set. A new set of surrounding words might just suddenly make them 'click' for you. If so, then you know that you're brain is becoming resistant to the repetition, if not, you can put those words aside for special attention later.

Also, what are you doing with the words once learnt? Are you keeping your lists so that you can review them in future? Do you plan on making an effort to use them actively, or do you want them ready in your passive vocabulary?

Good luck with the first day back at school!


Hej Elenia!

I have actually been thinking about this a bit. I would definitely use the unlearned words in a separate set, but for the sake of my testing I went ahead and used new words for every set (so the results would be more accurate) however, since I'm not truly trying to prove any method and really just want to have a high vocabulary retention, it would be much more efficient if I did put them into another set. What I often do is just take out known words and focus on the tough ones. BUT your method sounds like it could show further findings about word repetition, so I'll try that, thanks!

Now that I'm back in school, I won't have as much time to experiment and test things out, so I'll be doing things similarly to what I did above, but taking words that I didn't learn in previous sets (or simply, come across them again) and put them into "new" sets.

As far as what else I do with the words, not too sure yet. I know that A LOT of people like to make sentences with the words to remember them easier, and sometimes I do use a word I just learned in say, a diary entry on Lang-8 or in my journal. However, I usually don't go out of my way to use them, especially nouns, because I already know the typical position which nouns take in Japanese. With verbs, it is usually helpful to try them out in a few different verb forms, so that you don't stumble when trying to conjugate them later. I have been keeping my lists and audio recordings of the lists, in case I need review, or maybe someone else I know could benefit from the recorded words.

My plan for now is, I will probably just take the 285 words I learned from this experiment and just let the rest go for now, because I have many more words I need to focus on for my new class this quarter, and I'll likely run into the old words again soon, especially the more common ones. I also decided not to take the JLPT (Japanese language proficiency test) this year, so I don't think I'll be needing to learn the old words immediately. Too much stress!!!

Thanks for the response!
-Xelian
Last edited by Xelian on Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:43 pm

Hello everyone!

School started and I have a whole new set of classes this quarter...

I'm taking 4th year Japanese (to finish off my Japanese major) 2nd year Swedish, and a Scandinavian studies class (for my Swedish minor).

It is relieving. No more oral exams in Japanese class! I am taking the translation route, meaning I am reading short stories and excerpts from books which are completely in Japanese. The genre is Modern Japanese Literature, so I expect the stories not to be too dull, though any story from any age can be dull if you don't like it. Our first piece is 雛の花 by 浅田次郎. We have gotten through the first page so far.

Since I have a counter in my signature for "book pages read", I will be using that to measure my progress, though I will also add to that other books I might be reading pages of. In other words, progress will seem slow, because my goal is 1000 pages for that particular counter.

For Swedish, we are having a good time just chatting. There are 3 students including myself in the class, so we're each getting a lot of attention. Actually, this is probably the smallest class I've ever had! But anyway, we have daily homework that is briefly mentioned at the end of class, which I just realized I forgot to turn in today (darn it). I actually don't think there is much emphasis on homework (if any) as participation and attempts to speak Swedish!

So, this makes it pretty difficult to set up a structured weekly update like I had last year, since the structure of these classes are very loose... However, I think I'll try anyway. I'll be doing speed-memorizing with any and all words that I can, but I haven't decided how to track my progress yet.

Japanese:
0/11 quizzes
0/1 final exam


Swedish:
0/4 written tests
0/5 essays
0/1 presentation

That's all I have for now!

PS: Here's a thing I did to practice Japanese, I always envy people who can easily do vlogs in different languages so I try to do them too (even though my speaking skills aren't where I want them)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUF8cJyCNc&t=53s
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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
x 237

Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:08 am

I've been a little disorganized, so I'm late for my update!!! This is what's been done this past week:

Japanese:
1/11 quizzes
0/1 final exam

I got a 19/22 on my first translation quiz! Not bad! I'm happy with it~!

Swedish:
0/4 written tests
1/5 essays
0/1 presentation

I got a 39.5/40 on my first essay. I wonder what I did wrong! Haha... (I'll find out tomorrow)

I'm planning to supplement my Japanese grammar with Tobira and speed memorize whenever possible, but the motivation to do this has proven a little difficult. I memorized a set of 76 Japanese words from the text we're translating and got 53% correct on my first try, interestingly. It might be because I had been working with the words in context!

Anyway, I have some other homework to do, so I'll update again later!
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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
x 237

Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:16 pm

Hi everyone! The school quarter is already flashing before my eyes and we're nearly at week 5!!! Amazing.

Japanese:
3/11 quizzes
0/1 final exam

I got a 19/22 on my first translation quiz, but on my second I think I got a 16.5/22... Oops :(
I'll get the third quiz back soon, but most of the weight of the course is participation and volume of text translated...
Speaking of that, I'm having some trouble. I'll be talking with my teacher tomorrow to help get some shortcuts on translating because it takes FOREVER to translate just one page at this point... I guess I'm still a beginner, but, it's a little discouraging. This is what I've been wanting to do for a good 6 or 7 years of my life!!!
I speed memorized another set of words, about 160 at a retention of 35% or so on the first try... I'm planning to just take all the words I'm still not remembering and compile them into a new set (we'll see if I have time)

Swedish:
1/4 written tests
1/5 essays
0/1 presentation

My teacher has left for a conference and my two classmates and I are working on what I assume is THE presentation for the quarter. It's going okay. We have until Monday to do a run through of our presentations, our writings, and talk for 5 minutes, but the actual presentation won't be due for a few days after that (when my teacher returns).

I've been struggling a little with myself on homework issues, I am so thankful for a small break from going to Swedish class, it's giving me a little time to work on homework in the morning!!! When that ends though, I'll have to figure out a way not to explode.
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Xelian
Orange Belt
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:19 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)

Studying actively:
日本語 (B2)

Studying off and on:
한국어 (A2)
svenska (B1)
中文 (A1)
Tiếng Việt
Deutsch (beginner)

On the back burner:
Español (A2)
ASL (A1)
العَرَبِيَّة

Maybe some other time:
Български (A1)

Interested in:
Arabic (Egyptian, Yemeni), Hindi, Turkish, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Urdu, Russian, Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Farsi
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17163
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Re: Japanese, Swedish, and Polyglotism Language Log

Postby Xelian » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:37 pm

So I talked to my Japanese teacher about how I feel like I'm going too slowly with my Japanese homework and not getting the grades I was hoping for. She basically indirectly told me to stop being anxious in class, re-read my grammar textbook, and stop trying to memorize vocabulary. None of this is going to help with my homework efficiency, but whatever. As for that, she told me to just look up all unknown words before I write the translation, something I figured out on my own. The problem I run into is when I can't differentiate between a word and a grammar, like when there is a long string of kana, with a bunch of words that for some reason the author is writing in kana (my teacher says it's to add style to the text, but I think it is to infer a different meaning to the word...).

I don't know what to do now. I made a video, but most of it was cut out, I talk about my struggles with Japanese though and why I don't want to re-read my grammar textbook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamXvBvtrL8&t=4s (along with some other stuff I'm endlessly worried about)

I think I will just try using a different resource when studying grammar, I'm going to be using Imabi.net because I think it is lit, and I'll try to just look up different grammatical things on google that I don't understand and see what comes up.

It is true that my grammar is lacking, however, I think that in time, hearing enough Japanese, I'll be able to know whether or not it sounds correct. Maybe it takes longer than I think though. I just know that the way I picked up English grammar is by listening and reading a lot.

Anyway, anyone have any ideas to speed up translating or learning Japoanese grammar? Lol
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