Slow-cooked Korean

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Oscard587
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Wed May 17, 2017 3:14 pm

smallwhite wrote:"유무X" expresses "having X or not having X", "having X or otherwise".


I don't think we use "유무X". I mean, "형적" itself cannot be used as alone in Korean.
so it's not the form add some word after the "유무" it's not an adjective or has a role like that,
if someone use it like 유무+(some word) then it will be weird to us.
nobody express the idea of 'having x or not having x' in that way in Korean.
word order changes if we want to use express that idea,
'중고차 사고 유무'

also "유무" could be used in this way
무기의 유무에 관계없이 우리는~ : whether we have a weapon or not ~

well, similar style of word formation is "대내외적", it's the form made by 대내적+대외적.

it's easy, just we don't write repeated letters when we write combined word.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby smallwhite » Wed May 17, 2017 3:23 pm

Oscard587 wrote:
smallwhite wrote:"유무X" expresses "having X or not having X", "having X or otherwise".


I don't think we use "유무X". I mean, "형적" itself cannot be used as alone in Korean.
so it's not the form add some word after the "유무" it's not an adjective or has a role like that,
if someone use it like 유무+(some word) then it will be weird to us.

I'm sorry I don't understand. "유무형적 / 유무X" was copied straight from the original sentence. What does the orignal sentence mean, then?
...현재까지 양측의 유무형적 갈등은 지속되고 있다.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Wed May 17, 2017 3:41 pm

I think it just means what you said with the "tangible and intangible" based on the context. I would think the Korean Oscard587 told us that because it's a strange way to use yuu/mu. I've also seen yuu/mu used in the ways he/she listed but not in the way it's used in this particular sentence. Maybe he/she's just mentioning it to advise to the korean learner to not use the word in that way.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Wed May 17, 2017 3:59 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Oscard587 wrote:
smallwhite wrote:"유무X" expresses "having X or not having X", "having X or otherwise".


I don't think we use "유무X". I mean, "형적" itself cannot be used as alone in Korean.
so it's not the form add some word after the "유무" it's not an adjective or has a role like that,
if someone use it like 유무+(some word) then it will be weird to us.
nobody express the idea of 'having x or not having x' in that way in Korean.
word order changes if we want to use express that idea,
'중고차 사고 유무'

I'm sorry I don't understand. "유무X" was copied straight from the original sentence. What does the orignal sentence mean, then?
...현재까지 양측의 유무형적 갈등은 지속되고 있다.


umm before that I think I should add some explanation about it.
I wanted to show how it could be used in Korean however when I wrote my first post today, I was doing something different so it wasn't clear enough..

it's not 유무X. in this sentence it should be used as '유무형적'.
cause this word parsed as 유무형적 -> 유형적+무형적 -> (유형+적) + (무형+적)

I'm not sure about Korean grammar but it feels like ~적 has a role as adjective or something like that. you can make words in that way too.
e.g ) 과학적 = 과학(Science)+적 -> Scientific / 상업적 = 상업(Commerce)+적 -> Commercial

In my opinion, original sentence could be..
'so far, tangible and intangible conflict of both sides has continued.'

doubt about my choice of words and grammatical errors in English. but at least it's still better than google translation.
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Just because I accept the inevitability of my fate, does not mean I am in any hurry to embrace it!

Mais l'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.

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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby smallwhite » Wed May 17, 2017 4:19 pm

Oscard587 wrote:
it's not 유무X. in this sentence it should be used as '유무형적'.
cause this word parsed as 유무형적 -> 유형적+무형적 -> (유형+적) + (무형+적)

Thank you for your explanation. That was what I thought I was saying. Looks like my algebra is worse than my Korean and I shouldn't have used X!
smallwhite wrote:
= 유형적 and 무형적
= with-form 적 and without-form 적
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:37 pm

Sayonaroo wrote:I think it just means what you said with the "tangible and intangible" based on the context. I would think the Korean Oscard587 told us that because it's a strange way to use yuu/mu. I've also seen yuu/mu used in the ways he/she listed but not in the way it's used in this particular sentence. Maybe he/she's just mentioning it to advise to the korean learner to not use the word in that way.


uh it seems this is right, I didn't understood what's going on and just want to tell don't use 유무 in that way.
now I got what it is.

the point is, 유무 looks same in both usage but actually they are different.
also.. meaning could be different, but similar.

I'll write in direct translation

'중고차 사고 유무' - used car / accident / exist or not exist
'유무형적' - 유형적 + 무형적 = tangible + intangible

First sentence, in my own example, 유무 plays a role as a one word in the sentence.
Second one is the word that formed in the way I explained above.
Think about 'Exist' and 'Coexist' , 'worker' and 'coworker'
co- added the meaning 'together' to original word and makes a new word. is it right?

this is could be a trap for English speakers.
I don't know well about English words but it seems English words usually constructed in simple way.
so they might parse the word '유무형적' as '유무'+'형적'

but as I wrote before, this word wasn't formed in simple way,
it's like... add two words (유형적+무형적) which could be used alone and after add both, cut off the useless part of combined word.
meanwhile, co- is the prefix that couldn't be used alone.
as a result of cut off, it makes 유무 of 유무형적 looks like as if it is prefix of a word.
however, 유무 is not the prefix in this case. Lexical morphology worked in different way in this case.

I'm not sure about Chinese or Japanese, I don't know how they use the word 유무 (有無) in their language.
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Just because I accept the inevitability of my fate, does not mean I am in any hurry to embrace it!

Mais l'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.

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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:41 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Oscard587 wrote:
it's not 유무X. in this sentence it should be used as '유무형적'.
cause this word parsed as 유무형적 -> 유형적+무형적 -> (유형+적) + (무형+적)

Thank you for your explanation. That was what I thought I was saying. Looks like my algebra is worse than my Korean and I shouldn't have used X!
smallwhite wrote:
= 유형적 and 무형적
= with-form 적 and without-form 적


Well there was too many English equivalent in your post.
if we use an algebra then it might be (유+무)X ? well, X needed anyway :)
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Just because I accept the inevitability of my fate, does not mean I am in any hurry to embrace it!

Mais l'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam.

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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Wed May 17, 2017 5:38 pm

Wow thanks @Oscard587 and @smallwhite!

"tangible and intangible" for me starts to make sense in that sentence. This article was originally pulled from Korean wikipedia - I wouldn't know whether or not it was written by a native speaker. However news articles I pull from Korean news sites regularly have similar kinds of issues for me.

It would seem those who know Chinese or Japanese really well have a significant leg up. A friend of mine who learnt Japanese as an adult and speaks it proficiently usually has much better luck deciphering things than I do. Perhaps one day I'll be proficient enough in Korean to be able to use a monolingual dictionary and that may help in some cases.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby smallwhite » Thu May 18, 2017 1:30 pm

qeadz wrote:It would seem those who know Chinese or Japanese really well have a significant leg up...

... but we decide to torture ourselves so here's you learning Asian languages and me European languages.

Oscard587 wrote:this is could be a trap for English speakers.
I don't know well about English words but it seems English words usually constructed in simple way.
...
it's like... add two words (유형적+무형적) which could be used alone and after add both, cut off the useless part of combined word.
...

qeadz wrote:It would seem those who know Chinese or Japanese really well have a significant leg up. A friend of mine who learnt Japanese as an adult and speaks it proficiently usually has much better luck deciphering things than I do.

English "s/he" = "he or she"
resembles "유무형" = "유형무형" or "유형 or 무형"
Or "pre- and post-war", "bi- and tricycles".
Or "rooms 2 and 3" = "room 2 and room 3".

Those who know Chinese or Japanese ("Chi- or Japanese" :D ) are probably more used to words stuck together without spaces.
"pre-post-war", "bi-tri-cycles", "MonTueWednesThursday" :?
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Thu May 18, 2017 1:59 pm

English "s/he" = "he or she"
resembles "유무형" = "유형무형" or "유형 or 무형"
Or "pre- and post-war", "bi- and tricycles".
Or "rooms 2 and 3" = "room 2 and room 3".

Those who know Chinese or Japanese ("Chi- or Japanese" :D ) are probably more used to words stuck together without spaces.
"pre-post-war", "bi-tri-cycles", "MonTueWednesThursday" :?


This kind of word production seems more frequent in Korean than English :D
When I think about these, I found that this 'rule' is not much useful for production, I mean when Korean learner try to make a word by using this rule. Some input needed to understand this then it's enough. the opportunity to use 유무형적 in spoken Korean.. I think I never used in my life in spoken language, not sure about written language, maybe only one or two in my whole life..? :D

Actually, if someone learn Ancient Chinese letters in Korean style then they will feel more comfortable. Recommended to people who wanna use Korean language in advanced level :D
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