Slow-cooked Korean

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3099
Contact:

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby leosmith » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:27 pm

qeadz wrote:이거 누구예요?

s/b "이놈 누구예요?" for sure. Healer can't be wrong.
0 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:36 pm

I'm not really updating this log much these days. Now with all the new activities I'm trying to cram into my study, many things I was doing very regularly in the first half of the year are a bit less regular. Today I decided to do some free writing. As per usual there are at least a couple of things I don't quite know how to express properly and so it goes into the 'for correction' pile.

So heres the uncorrected text:

KR: 이달 말에 저는 한국에 갈 겁니다. 원래 이 주 동안 있는 계확 이었지만 이제 거의 삼 주 동안 방문할 겁니다. 그래서 그때는 아침마다 일찍 일어날 가능성이 있기 때문에 아침 먹기 전에 강남에서 돌아다녈 수 있습니다. 만약 특별히 일찍 일어났고 서을의 시네에서 돌아다녀신다면 많은 취한 사람들이 치맥 점에 보일 수 있습니다. 특히 강남과 주변에는…
스타박스도 보일 수 있고 바리스타들은 가게를 깨끗하게 만들기로 바쁩니다.
이 한국 방문에는 저는 더 한국어를 이해할 수 있으면 좋겠습니다.

EN: A the end of this month I'm going to Korea. Originally planned to be for 2 weeks, but now I will visit for almost 3 weeks. So because its likely that I'll wake up early each morning, I'll be able to walk around Gangnam before breakfast. If one gets up especially early and wanders around downtown Seoul, one can see many drunk people in 'chimek' places (Beer & fried chicken). Especially in Gangnam and surrounding area...
You'll also see Starbucks and the baristas busying themselves with cleaning the place. I hope to understand more spoken Korean on this visit.

---

Progress is slow. Even on the vocab front with Anki, I am pressing the 'hard' button an awful lot. I'm mostly adding 10 new words per day through Anki (occasionally only 5) - todays total cards up for review: 128! So perhaps I should settle on 8 per day and see if that daily review count can come down a tad (ideally about 100 - that seems to be a good number time-wise).

As of late grammar has taken a back seat. I was working steadily through HowToStudyKorean's grammar points, supplementing it with my reference book and TTMIK's site. I've just begun working through them again. Being on lesson 86 now and looking at how my current study schedule is shaping up, I might just set a target of being in the lesson 100 - 110 bracket by year end. A more leisurely pace, for sure, while I keep my focus on vocab and picking up my reading of Korean a bit more.
3 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:15 pm

Well off to Korea I go amidst rising tensions. If the news looks bad over the coming weeks and this thread doesn't get any updates then D:

In other news I've been more diligent in finding sentences which surprise me and trying to pull them apart. There really is a never-ending supply of even the simplest ones. Heres one fragment:

보이지 않을 수가 있다

Now when I heard the sentence containing this, it made sense. When I read the sentence it made sense. Sense meaning I believe I know what it is saying. HOWEVER on closer inspection its actually somewhat confusing to me. A more regular construction is along the lines of: ㄹ 수 있다 (can), ㄹ 수 없다 (cannot).

So for example: 갈 수 있다 (can + go), 갈 수 없다 (cannot + go).

The 'cannot' comes from the change of 있다 to 없다 in the latter example. However in the former, the grammar used is in the 'positive' (grammar for 'can') but the thing which ' can be done' is to not be seen.

So what is the difference then between:

보일 수 없다
보이지 않을 수 있다

Are they interchangable? Is there a nuance I am unaware of? Its possible that the difference is necessitated by the sentence structure so I'll have to go dig up the whole sentence.

In other news I took a silly online Korean vocab test. Silly because it did not have the ability to skip questions and was clearly not aimed at learners like myself. I found many of the questions harder to understand than the answers.

https://www.arealme.com/korean-vocabulary-size-test/ko/

I did not try to do a 'best guess' to questions I did not know the answer for. I answered (d) for everything I didn't know. It gives me 3210 as an estimated vocabulary. Has it any accuracy at all? Who knows.
0 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:32 pm

One last reply - since I've been using Anki, I feel compelled to be one of them annoying Anki users who periodically posts stats.

I've been doing this for a few months. Gotten through just over 1000 words in the deck so far. My lifetime stats by type:
Learning: 78.72%
Young: 88.71%
Mature: 93.54%

The stats feel a little lower than I think is appropriate. I *think* I should be aiming for 90% on the Young, and maybe 95% on the mature. So probably I'll need to adjust *something* to bring these more in line. I'll have to read again on what the Anki settings mean and figure out which would more likely fix this.

Why such a high correct % for Young? Well from what I understand, Anki counts every viewing of a card. So a wrong card will come up multiple times to help the user get it right and of course it affects the interval - and each of those viewings count. Thus I think one expects a pretty high percentage. That _and_ I believe the point of SRS is to be seeing words again just *before* you forget them, not afterward.
0 x

User avatar
Ezy Ryder
Orange Belt
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:22 am
Languages: PL (rusting Native)
EN (Advanced)
中文 (Lower Intermediate)
日本語 (Beginner, not studying)
台語 (Dabbling)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1164
x 214
Contact:

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Ezy Ryder » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:11 am

qeadz wrote:I've been doing this for a few months. Gotten through just over 1000 words in the deck so far.

Congratulations!
qeadz wrote:The stats feel a little lower than I think is appropriate.

Cards you review feel more difficult, because Anki makes you review the ones you're at least 20% likely to have forgotten. In other words, only the cards which it estimates to be the hardest for you to recall.
Try skimming through random cards in the card browser, you'll see how much better you will feel about your recall in the deck as a whole.
qeadz wrote:I *think* I should be aiming for 90% on the Young, and maybe 95% on the mature.

IIRC, Anki aims at making you remember ~90% of all the cards in the deck (minus the unknown ones, of course) as a whole, but since some cards are gonna be easier, and some harder, it attempts to accomplish this by making you review cards once you're no more than 80% likely to still remember them.
So, with the default settings at least, you wants to go for 80%. (I.e., don't fret about not being much above 80%)
qeadz wrote:Why such a high correct % for Young? Well from what I understand, Anki counts every viewing of a card. So a wrong card will come up multiple times to help the user get it right and of course it affects the interval - and each of those viewings count.

AFAIK, after failing a learnt card, it goes back to "Learning". So, the multiple reviews in quick succession after failing a card should contribute to the "Learning" percentage, and not the "Young" percentage.
qeadz wrote:That _and_ I believe the point of SRS is to be seeing words again just *before* you forget them, not afterwards.

We're only human, and Anki is only software. Neither is omniscient, so Anki can only estimate when you're x% likely to have forgotten something already, not "when it divines you're about to forget it" ;)
It's a bit like quantum mechanics, isn't it? Works with probabilities for things we're used to thinking of as definite, and is confusing when you first hear about it hh
0 x
阿波
: 1250 / 1000010k SRS Challenge :
: 3750 / 48084,808 漢字 (handwriting) :

User avatar
Evita
Orange Belt
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Latvia
Languages: I speak: Latvian, English, Russian, German
I study: Korean
I'm slowly forgetting: Spanish, Finnish, French
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1141
x 289

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Evita » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:21 pm

qeadz wrote:So what is the difference then between:

보일 수 없다
보이지 않을 수 있다

Are they interchangable?

No. You need to keep in mind the meaning of 수, which is a "way" for something to happen or for something to be possible. 보이다 means "to be seen" or "to show". So the first sentence means that there's no way it can be seen or shown. The second sentence means that there's a way or possibility for it not to be seen.

Basically it boils down to "it cannot be seen" vs. "it might not be seen".
3 x
: 6480 / 8000 Korean Vocabulary

My Korean Anki decks: Grammar Sentences | General Korean Sentences | Vocabulary | Hanja

User avatar
Jiwon
Orange Belt
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:41 pm
Location: Seoul
Languages: Korean (native)
English (secondary native)
German (C1)
Hindi (intermediate)

passable: Mandarin, Japanese
x 434

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Jiwon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:57 pm

After a long period of dormancy, I have finally returned to the forum, and I am shocked.

You are here in Korea right now?? :!: :?: :!: :?:

I hope you have a great time. And good luck communicating with your wife's relatives. :)
Three weeks is am ample amount of time to check how much you have improved over the months.

PS - I don't trust that vocabulary size test. It says My Korean vocabulary size is 13140 words, while my English is 29800 and my German 18500. There is no way I know more German words than Korean.
0 x
कहाँ -
मेरा अधिवास कहाँ?

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:56 pm

And I am back. What a trip. We went to Gangwha Island for a bit, down to Gyeongju for a bit. Much Korean food was eaten. My mother-in-law makes her own kimchi - of many varieties - which is really quite good. Neither of her daughters make their own kimchi though :)

Gyeongju was the capital of a unified Korea during the period of the Silla empire. I'm not a history buff at all, but I do quite enjoy visiting museums and seeing old buildings and artifacts. Wolji Pond is spectacular at night. The story behind it and artifacts found in it are equally interesting.

This isn't a travel log, but a language log so I won't bore you with my travel interests. However if you are looking for things to do in Korea, stopping by Gyeongju and taking a city/surroundings tour is something I recommend.

So about Korean. Hmmm. Lets see... last time I was there was about a year ago I think. So in the meanwhile I put in at least a couple hundred more hours of study. My study activities have also changed during this time. I must have a total of 550 to 600 hours of 'Korean' so far. (Maybe 300 hours worth of listening included in that number)

Where did this get me?

Well as readers of this log know, I have not really done any speaking during the last year. My only output has been writing, and I did it almost daily.

So the most reasonable measure is to primarily consider my comprehension of input while I was there. I listened as much as I could to family discussions, TV shows, announcements (on tours or buses), and tried reading any notice board I happened to see.

First the good things:

For brief interactions in stores my understanding of numbers was way up. On previous trips I might ask how much something is, or listen for the price but didn't really catch any of it. This time around it was much better - I don't think I had to ask anyone to repeat the price.

On TV there are programs wherein a camera crew follow foreigners around while they travel Korea. A panel of people then comment on the edited footage while the foreigners in the footage have their words translated to Korean as subtitles. I'm happy to say that for these kinds of programs which deal with simple vocabulary and language, I can at least read 95% of the subtitles. I struggle to understand what the panel are saying though.

There were many notice boards I was able to read and *some* announcements I was able to understand. This is certainly up from my last visit.

Now the not so good things:

Most of what my family were saying was still a complete mystery to me. I understood almost nothing that my father-in-law said. I could understand a *bit* of what my mother-in-law said - simple directives were comprehensible, simple discussion I could maybe follow by catching words or phrases, but a lot of *real* conversation was simply unintelligible to me.

My sister-in-law was perhaps the clearest and I understood the most, but once again any proper conversation was not possible to follow aside from a word here or a phrase there. My brother-in-law was tough to understand and even simple things he said were hit and miss as to whether I'd catch them or not.

To be frank, I'd say TV is easier to follow than they are! But that comes as no surprise - actors and actresses speak their well-written lines clearly so unless they're whispering or shouting, it's mostly lack of vocabulary (and grammar) which stands in my way.

Most talk-shows or news items are far beyond me though. I just cant process speech at that speed. Clearly I still need to cover more grammar and vocabulary too, but I can certainly say it is also way too fast for me.

Output

So, how did my output go?

Well I didn't do a whole lot of it. But largely I'm a solid A2 I'd say. Some of the things I was able to communicate via language (as opposed to signing with my hands):
"Is my wife still downstairs?"
"I'll come back later."
"I had a fantastic stay. Thank you very much for making it so."
"Is my son naughtier than his cousins were when they were 4?"

So the trip was dotted here and there with simple things including the above. It was clear that I needed a moment before beginning to say anything and as such nothing aside from simple pleasantries came easily off the tongue.

Conclusions

It is certain that I have improved since my last trip. I *am* understanding more. But for a good 250 (or more) hours of study, the step forward is decidedly small. Even with having dedicated half my language learning time to listening, my listening ability is still so incredibly weak. Even having spent the entire trip *listening* to my family, they were barely any more comprehensible than when I arrived.

My goal is specifically communication with my parents-in-law. Thats what I set out to accomplish. I feel quite let-down that I was unable to understand my father-in-law. When we were staying over in Gangwha Island I decided to ask him something in Korean while we were alone waiting for family. I asked "How long will it take to get back to Seoul from here?" knowing that traffic was going to be crazy as all of Korea were making use of the extended public holidays.

He tried to speak loudly and as clear as he could for me. He said a lot of words. All I was able to make out were "1 hour" "traffic jam" and "3 to 3.5 hours". Sure I made out what was probably the key message right there, but he said many more words than those - the rest of them I couldn't make out.
2 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:24 pm

Just another random thing I recall - my mother-in-law tried to be more prepared herself this time! She had a translation app installed on her phone which she tried to use a few times.

The first time I woke up early and my wife and son were still sleeping. My mother-in-law was awake and I guess she was concerned so she spoke into her phone. The Korean read (if translated correctly) "Is something the matter?" but I couldnt help but chuckle at the AI's attempt to render this in English: "What is wrong with you?"

Another time of note was when I was at the airport leaving Korea. My wife had wandered off somewhere and my mother-in-law decided to say something to me. Again she spoke into the phone and while I could read the words in Korean, I didn't know the *meaning* behind the sentence. I'm pretty sure it was something like "My heart is feeling very heavy right now" if rendered more correctly in English. However the AI translation was "I feel very awkward right now"! :lol:

So I told her, in Korean, "this translation is very strange." I'm pretty sure she understood me even though I mispronounced 'translation'. I said 반역 instead of 번역. And it would seem that Korean has just about every variation of 2 and 3-syllable groupings covered in their dictionary, so instead of not being a word at all, I essentially said "This treachery is very strange" :oops:

But she then put the phone away and tried just regular old-fashioned talking. I understood just fine. In true Korean fashion she apologized for not treating me well enough (when actually she really went out of her way to make me feel very welcome) and my only frustration is that my own command over spoken Korean is not sufficient to let her know I properly understood her that time.

I was still able to thank her for a very enjoyable visit and convey something of the future.
3 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:37 pm

Once again language learning strategy comes to the fore! Like most learners, I've had a few shifts in my strategy over the brief time I've been learning Korean. But I'll be honest:

I do not find this easy.

There are days when vocabulary I've known well (for a long time) just blurs.
There are some grammar points I've looked up many many times and used in writing many times which still slip my mind - being I hear or read it and I get it confused with another grammar point.
There are times when I listen to something familiar yet I'm really struggling to follow it.
I am hitting the 'hard' button on Anki an awful lot.

So because of this, it behooves me to listen to the advice of language learners who have either accomplished more than I have or are finding success to be easier than I am. Yet advice from one learner can often be in tension with advice from another learner.

I met a friend who, in his late teens, was given a crash course in Japanese and went to Japan for a while. He later went back there where he worked and married. He is always complimented on how fluent he is and well he is able to pronounce things. If we go to a Japanese restaurant, the staff enjoy talking to him because the conversation is evidently effortless and he has a good knowledge of the country too.

Doing my Anki flashcards he said he'd never seen anything like that. It lead into a small discussion wherein he expressed that he doesn't see value in learning words. At least not by themselves. His advice is to forget the words - focus on phrases. He doesn't seem to have done any targeted vocabulary study.

So clearly he had no problems building his vocabulary, or at least did not identify it as an issue while learning Japanese.

Now I'm not about to abandon Anki because of this - I feel the proper course of action is to elicit suggestions from other language learners, choose a strategy, trial it for sufficient time so as to show the effectiveness of the strategy. But contrary to what other language learners report from their experiences, I don't feel I have any strong point in Korean.

I am struggling through everything. Right now I am giving up some time to do Anki because I believe increasing my passive vocabulary will give me the most bang-for-buck in terms of where I spent my study time. At some future date I'll likely decide I need to focus elsewhere, at which point I will simply review old cards in Anki without adding new ones.

But thats not to say the other areas of study are going well. I'm having a hard time with every part of this language.
2 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests