Slow-cooked Korean

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:32 pm

Sc27 wrote:What methods will you use to practice speaking? Going for an Italki tutor? Or speak with your wife once in a while?


Well, last year I did a few iTalki sessions - not many though. I thought it was well worth it, but unfortunately our company moved into smaller offices and we lost the spare meeting rooms I was using for privacy. Now there isn't anywhere I can Skype easily.

So I do need a plan, and I've been saying this for 6 months now! How time flies...

The thing with practicing with my wife (or for anyone doing so with a SO) is that nobody except for language instructors quite realize how difficult it is to communicate with a learner. When I first began learning, my wife would try help but we'd end up both becoming very frustrated - her with me not remembering everything, me with her not being able to explain language rules.

One of my Skype tutors was studying a foreign language though University and her boyfriend was not Korean (but I think was learning some). At any rate English was their common language even though it was a 2nd language for both of them! I either asked or mentioned about her tutoring him in Korean and she replied: Oh no! I would never have the patience for that - I'd just end up angry at him!

So anyway I'm now about 500 hours worth of Korean learning into this journey. In recent months my wife *has* begun to speak to me in Korean regularly. She says short things like: "Are you going to do exercise after work?" and similar everyday comments/questions. It's working well because I understand what she is saying the majority of the time now.

I still reply in English though.

The way I see it is that it's taken me 500 hours to get to this point. Thats a really big ask were my wife to be involved with it and it would have been full of frustrations. So I'm looking at the speaking thing with the same point of view: it will take at least tens of hours, but probably 100+ hours to ramp up to a 'beginner' level.

So were I to do that, then probably just as my wife has found that some one-way communication is now possible, I'd be in a place to reply. I certainly wouldn't even be 'conversational', but I'd be at a place where she can mostly understand my replies rather than me struggling to find words and mispronouncing things so badly she can't understand my intention.

The question is: how am I going to get all those hours of slow and frustrating conversation practice?

Were I to be able to find a way to use iTalki to continue my sessions with tutors, even at $20 per session, it still adds up to $2000!!!
1 x

User avatar
leosmith
Brown Belt
Posts: 1353
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 pm
Location: Seattle
Languages: English (N)
Spanish (adv)
French (int)
German (int)
Japanese (int)
Korean (int)
Mandarin (int)
Portuguese (int)
Russian (int)
Swahili (int)
Tagalog (int)
Thai (int)
x 3157
Contact:

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby leosmith » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:45 pm

qeadz wrote:it will take at least tens of hours, but probably 100+ hours to ramp up to a 'beginner' level.

Based on what (I think) you've done so far in the language, I'd be very surprised if 100 hours didn't get you to B1.

qeadz wrote:Were I to be able to find a way to use iTalki to continue my sessions with tutors, even at $20 per session, it still adds up to $2000!!!

Looking through my Korean lesson details, my average price per one hour lesson is about $12.
1 x
https://languagecrush.com/reading - try our free multi-language reading tool

Sc27
White Belt
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:19 am
Languages: English (N), Korean (?, not a beginner for sure)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=5526
x 17

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sc27 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:24 am

qeadz wrote:
Well, last year I did a few iTalki sessions - not many though. I thought it was well worth it, but unfortunately our company moved into smaller offices and we lost the spare meeting rooms I was using for privacy. Now there isn't anywhere I can Skype easily.

So I do need a plan, and I've been saying this for 6 months now! How time flies...

The thing with practicing with my wife (or for anyone doing so with a SO) is that nobody except for language instructors quite realize how difficult it is to communicate with a learner. When I first began learning, my wife would try help but we'd end up both becoming very frustrated - her with me not remembering everything, me with her not being able to explain language rules.

One of my Skype tutors was studying a foreign language though University and her boyfriend was not Korean (but I think was learning some). At any rate English was their common language even though it was a 2nd language for both of them! I either asked or mentioned about her tutoring him in Korean and she replied: Oh no! I would never have the patience for that - I'd just end up angry at him!

So anyway I'm now about 500 hours worth of Korean learning into this journey. In recent months my wife *has* begun to speak to me in Korean regularly. She says short things like: "Are you going to do exercise after work?" and similar everyday comments/questions. It's working well because I understand what she is saying the majority of the time now.

I still reply in English though.

The way I see it is that it's taken me 500 hours to get to this point. Thats a really big ask were my wife to be involved with it and it would have been full of frustrations. So I'm looking at the speaking thing with the same point of view: it will take at least tens of hours, but probably 100+ hours to ramp up to a 'beginner' level.

So were I to do that, then probably just as my wife has found that some one-way communication is now possible, I'd be in a place to reply. I certainly wouldn't even be 'conversational', but I'd be at a place where she can mostly understand my replies rather than me struggling to find words and mispronouncing things so badly she can't understand my intention.

The question is: how am I going to get all those hours of slow and frustrating conversation practice?

Were I to be able to find a way to use iTalki to continue my sessions with tutors, even at $20 per session, it still adds up to $2000!!!

I think it's great that you're able to understand the small things your wife is saying to you. By this point, I really think you should start to respond back to her in Korean, since you've been focusing on reading, writing, and listening. Even if it's something small, like "Yeah, I'm gonna exercise for a couple of hours," it helps.

I mentioned Italki because other forum members use it for practicing conversation with a language tutor. While I think it's great, I agree with you in that the fees add up quickly. Unless I was preparing for the TOPIK exam or if I needed very specific grammar help, I personally wouldn't use it for conversation purposes because of that specific reason, and also with the potential of spending money in vain with someone who doesn't match well with me (assuming it was after the first free hour).

I was going to mention the mobile language exchange app Hellotalk, but I am not sure if you or your wife feel okay talking with random people online, who have the potential to be bad.
1 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4878

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:25 am

qeadz wrote:The way I see it is that it's taken me 500 hours to get to this point. Thats a really big ask were my wife to be involved with it and it would have been full of frustrations.

But as your log title says, one Korean or another has to be slow-cooked. So which Korean will that be? We'll soon find out! :D
1 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:44 pm

Part 2 of the review - writing! I am intentionally writing as if I am speaking it. This is because it opens up more grammar forms commonly associated with spoken Korean and verbs are conjugated a little differently.

This entry is a little more clunky in its writing than usual. This is because I decided to try retell an actual event (which means I'm bounded by things which actually happened - can't just put random things in) and I decided to rest on grammar and vocabulary which I do not have to look up (this was actually a big inhibitor - had I allowed use of a dictionary, this would read much smoother!).

As such this is a truer example of my capabilities than my other writings in which I do allow myself a bit of leeway in looking things up.

그저께 제 가족은 제 아내의 칙구의 집에 갔다왔어요.
우리가 새러운 차로 탔으니까 저는 운전하기를 실재로 좋아하는 것이었어요.
그 둘 가족 다 사이에 아들 두 명 있습니다.
점심 전에 공원에서 (숲 같은 공원!) 아들과 같이 산책했다가 작은 호수를 차자봤어요.
시간이 되서 아들의 구경 휘해서 기다릴 수 없었거든요.
그래서 그냥 아이노리터쪽으로 진행했습니다.
도착한 후에 제 아들과 친구는 같이 놀기 시작했습니다.
벌레 있었기 의에 우리 다 좋은 샌드위치를 즐겼습니다.
오후 늦게 되서 갈비 바비규를 위해서 친구의 집에 돌아갔습니다.
신기한 시간이었으냐? 당연하죠!

A couple of days ago my family went to my wife's friend's house.
I really enjoyed driving because we took our new car.
Between the two families there are two boys.
Before lunch we took a stroll together through a park (more like a forest) and found a small lake.
It was getting late so we couldn't wait for my son to look around.
So we just headed toward a childrens playground.
After arriving my son and his friend began to play together.
Aside from there being insects, we all enjoyed some good sandwiches.
As it was getting late in the afternoon, we went back to the friend's house to have a BBQ.
Was it an amazing time? Obviously!
1 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:17 pm

For correction of this review, I called in a favour with a friend. However I also posted it online for correction so I'll edit the post if any decent corrections come in.

Format: my original line first, corrected lines follow with what I consider the key corrections in red. You'll note there are a couple of small things I'm not worried about and as such not highlighting.

그저께 제 가족은 제 아내의 칙구의 집에 갔다왔어요.
그저께, 우리 가족은 아내의 친구집에 갔다 왔어요.

우리가 새러운 차로 탔으니까 저는 운전하기를 실재로 좋아하는 것이었어요.
차를 새로 사서, 운전하는게 너무 즐거웠어요.

그 둘 가족 다 사이에 아들 두 명 있습니다.
가족 모두 아들 두명 있습니다.

점심 전에 공원에서 (숲 같은 공원!) 아들과 같이 산책했다가 작은 호수를 차자봤어요
점심전에 공원에서 (숲 갚은 공원) 아들과 같이 산책하다가, 작은 호수를 찾았어요. ( found a small lake)

시간이 되서 아들의 구경 휘해서 기다릴 수 없었거든요.
(I don’t understand this part. I may need it in English. Or try it again and send it to me)

그래서 그냥 아이노리터쪽으로 진행했습니다.
그래서, 그냥 놀이터쪽으로 갔습니다.

도착한 후에 제 아들과 친구는 같이 놀기 시작했습니다.
도착한 후에, 우리 아들과 친구는 같이 놀기 시작했습니다. (Your sentence is correct but it sounds better with “우리 아들” (In English, we say ” my son, or my mom” but we say normally “our son and our mom” in Korean which is “우리”)

벌레 있었기 의에 우리 다 좋은 샌드위치를 즐겼습니다.
I don’t understand this part

오후 늦게 되서 갈비 바비규를 위해서 친구의 집에 돌아갔습니다.
오후 늦게 되서, 갈비 바비큐를 먹으러 친구 집으로 돌아 갔습니다.


신기한 시간이었으냐? 당연하죠!
좋은 시간이었어요? 당연하죠 !
0 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:09 pm

Yesterday I pulled up a bit of writing which was reviewed already and showed the unedited version to my wife for correction.

With printout in hand, she helpfully went through marking it up and found more problems than the online reviewer had found (I've suspected the online reviewer has been a bit lax in his/her reviews). However upon showing my wife the online corrected version, she said "no, he's correct. In fact maybe its better than mine because I changed some things to be said better whereas he kept very closely to your original words."

As usual, I questioned my wife on some of the changes and she couldn't explain any of them really. Just that it sounded better with them. One was the introduction of '는' in a place I really did not expect. All she could say is 'it makes it sound more like the future'. Which is really odd to me because I have never found anything which describes a context where this particle adds such a meaning.

But she is a native speaker so she does know best how things *should* be, especially for my simple texts. Furthermore, she is trying to describe a grammatical principle in a second language and so I appreciate that perhaps its hard to articulate the actual meaning.

At any rate the reason I am doing all of this is quite crazy:

I decided that I really wanted to try measure, in some way, the crux of my frustration from the last time I reviewed my Korean progress. And that was improper application of grammatical principles.

To this end I have worked through some 40-something texts I have written over the last 8 months (which is not all of them but Ill be darned if I'm going to do every single one).

For each text I have counted the number of grammatical errors I have made by looking at the suggested corrections. I have ignored spelling mistakes - simply counting the misapplication of grammatical principles.

I have a spreadsheet now. For every article I have a word count and a count of grammatical errors. From this I derive a somewhat meaningless stat of 'grammatical errors per word'.

I have graphed it in the hopes that it might show a decline in grammatical errors. It's been a bunch of work. I'll post it up next week sometime.
1 x

Sayonaroo
Green Belt
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:13 am
Languages: English(N), Japanese -fluent?, Korean - advanced?, Spanish (b1?)
Language Log: http://choronghi.wordpress.com
x 319
Contact:

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:25 am

Since you've never learned a foreign language to a high level I wanted to share my blog entry on Lang-8
https://choronghi.wordpress.com/2017/02 ... se-lang-8/

If anything I hope it enables you to stress out less about perfecting output... at least I don't believe you can expect immediate results
0 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:52 pm

Sayonaroo wrote:Since you've never learned a foreign language to a high level I wanted to share my blog entry on Lang-8
https://choronghi.wordpress.com/2017/02 ... se-lang-8/

If anything I hope it enables you to stress out less about perfecting output... at least I don't believe you can expect immediate results


You have some good points in your post. I try not to look up a lot of words when writing, but I do look up some. Mostly I've decided to have a focus on grammar when I review my written posts. I need to improve on many fronts, so its not to say I'm ignoring everything else but rather placing extra emphasis on grammatical corrections to my writing.

As is evidenced previously in this thread, I am a performance driven person to some degree. Being that I want to consider what is effective use of my time, then after trying something, measure to see whether it has had the intended effect. Then adjust accordingly. In fact this process is how I find myself writing Korean daily now!

But I'll be wrapping up this mid-year review and drawing a conclusion very shortly!
0 x

qeadz
Green Belt
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:37 pm
Languages: English (N), Korean (~A2)
x 400

Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:34 pm

Image

So as readers of this log know, I've incorporated regular writing into my routine. From about January this year and onward I have been doing a variety of writing styles:

1) Learning new grammar points and explicitly practicing them by making up random sentences to use them
2) Writing about daily events and topics
3) Translating English to Korean
4) Writing out set stories in Korean (I did a fairytale)

The reason for my focus on output was that in my last review (circa December or whenever it was last year) I came to the realization that I was still making many very fundamental mistakes in Korean grammar which other learners had managed to overcome. Until that point I had done an almost exclusively input focused approach to learning. I *did* look up grammar points fairly frequently but it was just enough to understand the text at hand - I did not practice it or read any further so long as I was able to continue working through input.

So after some consideration I decided that doing 33% output, 66% input rather than 90%+ input might fix this issue.

I have *felt* that this change has been a benefit, but I want to find some way of 'measuring' this if possible.

LIGHT BLUE LINE:

The above graph represents some 60+ individual submissions (of one or more sentences per submission). For each data point (ie: one set of sentences submitted to Lang8, LingQ or wherever for correction) I count up how many grammatical errors I made. I divide that by the number of words in the submission to reach a "grammatical errors per word" statistic.

This is plotted in light blue. It represents the original data.

GREEN LINE:

However the problem is that I don't really write the same amount of text each time. Sometimes it can be very low word count and other times I may write a whole bunch. So I can't really start to draw trend lines on the original data because one data point of "20 words" is not really as accurate as a datapoint which represents 100 words.

So you will note there is a plotted green line. I took the original data and put it into buckets of 80+ words. So instead of having 4 successive entries of 20 words each, I have one statistic which represents 80 words. Similarly if I had two successive entries of 70 words and 20 words, I'd combine them into one representing 90 words.

As you can tell the green line kind of smooths out the data already.

RED LINE:

Then a trend line which is a moving average of 3 has been fitted to the data points on the green line.

So it is all incredibly noisy - there were different correctors at different stages in my language learning. Some may have applied more corrections than others. But I wanted to see what the output would be!

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

Now that I've described what is going on in the graph, here are some further notes before I make observations:

* I had used Lang8 a *long* time ago (back in February last year) for a number of corrections. I have not included all of them but I took a few of them just to show my scores from right at the start of my language learning process.

* There is a big gap until July 2016 and a couple little gaps late in the year. I did no writing during these times that I recall or have record of.

* Prior to about August 2016 all my writing was really simple. Subject Object Verb for many sentences. So I did not attempt to employ any complex grammar and my sentences were typically very short.

* From late 2016 onward I began to employ a variety of grammar points when writing to break out of simple text and have continued to do so.

* From January 2017 onward I began to write very regularly, often longer entries than before (which is why the green data points occur more frequently - it only took 2 submissions to accrue 80 words).

* From January 2017 onward I began to explicitly practice grammar points using random sentences. I did not include any of these submissions on the graph.

So the data is very noisy as it depends on the corrector as to how much grammar might be adjusted. Additionally how I scored grammar mistakes is also somewhat arbitrary even though I did make up a set of rules to try ensure consistency. On some occasions it was really difficult to tell how much I got wrong when things were considerably reworded.

OBSERVATIONS:

There does appear to be a slight downward trend, but given how noisy the data is and how slight the trend is, I think its quite reasonable to conclude the graph itself is telling me nothing. Perhaps it would have to be more notable to confidently draw any conclusion.

Something of note is that the peaks (looking at the raw data blue line) are getting smaller with time which at least might indicate more *consistency* in my writing.

The graph shows nothing of the makeup of my mistakes, but I did note that last year I had a lot of obviously misplaced (or missing) subject, object and topic particles. My mistakes on this front have dropped off considerably, but the more obscure uses of 은/는 in a comparative function are cropping up much more.

So I think there has been progress, but I am still mulling over my conclusion on this:

Has daily output in Korean (in the form of writing) proven effective at addressing the grammar related problems I found last review? Is it something I should continue doing? If so, is there a modification to it which might improve the effectiveness of it?
2 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests