Slow-cooked Korean

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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Fri May 26, 2017 6:09 pm

Yesterday I was the the gym and usually I listen to Korean while working out, but I had neglected to do my daily writing in Korean. So I settled onto one of the cycle machines (for stability while exercising) and wrote my Korean on the phone.

I think I did a fair job of it - usually I am on a PC and I allow myself to look up some things, but this time it was without the trips to Naver.

어늘은 제 아들은 한 번 더 수영 수업을 갖고 있어요.
Today my son has another swimming lesson.
그래서 저는 헬스장에서 운동하고 있어요.
So I'm doing exercise at the gym.
그러지만 감기 걸리니까 운동하기를 쉽게 하랴 해요.
However since I have a cold, I'm going to take it easy.
민약 옆에 보면 많은 여자들이 춤을 추고 있어요.
Were I to look to the side, there are women dancing.
제 아내는 저한테 그녀들과 함게 춤을 추야 해라고 했어요!
My wife told me I should go dance with them!
운동과 아들의 수영 수업이 끝나서 일본 음식을 먹을까요!
After my exercise and son's swimming lessons finish, (we're) going to eat Japanese food.

Immediately when I actually try translate I can tell where some issues are. Which is why it pays (I think) to write in the target language, and then translate what was written. However I was on my phone and I didn't so that got submitted for correction as-is.

Now I wont paste in the corrections but I'm thinking the corrector maybe misunderstood what I was saying. Or perhaps they didnt. The corrections don't look like the meaning has changed significantly but the corrector added this like a personal message under the correction:

너무 힘들어 하지 말고, 그녀의 손을 또는 다른 곳을 혼내주면 서로의 관계가 편해질거에요...애증의관계인데..옳지 못하지만, 힘들어 하지 마세요.

Now someone who is better with Korean can help me out but my translation of it is:

"Don't do it too hard but if you give a scolding (perhaps smack or hit might be a more apt translation) to her hand or somewhere else, your relationship will improve... its a relationship of affection... it wont be right but dont do it too hard."

Now I'm not offended by such a comment, however inappropriate it may be, since I've read way worse on Youtube comments and Reddit... BUT if the corrector is essentially 'taking the piss' then should I question the quality of corrections they have been giving me?

EDIT: I take the corrections seriously because I am paying for them - on LingQ I buy points which are then gifted to the correctors. So I expect the corrections to reflect a native speakers phrasing and intent.

Also something which was brought up (possibly by Sol?) in another Korean language log was this mixing of 요 and ㅂ니다 endings. In this correction the corrector changed the endings of the 1st, 3rd and last sentences to use the latter but left the rest using the former.

I have added a remark to the correction asking for an explanation. I see this mixing all the time and it *seems* to be something fundamental which I should be getting correct.
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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Fri May 26, 2017 7:33 pm

Well I got my reply on the mixing of ㅂ니다 and 요:

"~요, hear like moral pretty girls saying than ~어. ~다구...and, ㅂ니다 is likely that a gentle man says...and, conjugated using both 요, ㅂ니다 will very natural and relexed.speaking.."

hmm... I guess the jury is still out on this one. More input required!
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Oscard587
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Oscard587 » Sat May 27, 2017 4:13 am

qeadz wrote:Well I got my reply on the mixing of ㅂ니다 and 요:

"~요, hear like moral pretty girls saying than ~어. ~다구...and, ㅂ니다 is likely that a gentle man says...and, conjugated using both 요, ㅂ니다 will very natural and relexed.speaking.."

hmm... I guess the jury is still out on this one. More input required!


it seems common Korean folks (include me) didn't recognize what's behind in their logic and way of thought in Korean language.
so usually their help just ended up with give some usages, like that...

Now I got some clear explanation so, I'll try to explain about 'formal or informal' matter of Korean, or about those 'endings'.
Actually, this is a key to understand Korean society, Korean way of thinking, more and more...
I tried it before, However, some unique Korean linguistic terms involved to this, so I couldn't make explanation clearly in English.
I'll try to write it on your log later after I finish my final exam, maybe in June?
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Evita
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Evita » Sun May 28, 2017 8:44 am

qeadz wrote:Pre-made or Custom 'deck'?
Recently I discovered that there were a not-insignificant portion of the 'top 1000' words in Korean which I have absolutely no recollection of. Even seeing the English translation didn't help - I'm pretty sure I have not encountered the word anywhere. So @AndyMeg is correct that the sources for the frequency lists makes a substantial difference.
I don't want to be learning words I don't expect to encounter in the material I read. Eventually I want to know those words too, but I'm a big believer in feedback mechanisms. So I want to read it, hear it, write about it, review it - get that word showing up in a number of places.
To this end I think making my own custom list is the way to go - adding words I come across in the material I read.

Have you checked out my list? It is here. It's basically an export from my Anki vocabulary deck. The first ~2500 words have been manually ordered by me based on textbooks, frequency lists, and also how often I have encountered them in Korean media.

If you decide to use Anki for SRS, you can take my deck and either go through it in order or suspend all the cards and then unsuspend the cards you want to learn one by one.
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Sayonaroo
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Mon May 29, 2017 5:18 am

Not sure if you thought of this but maybe compiling your list in anki may be ideal. As in add cards to it but not doing the deck.

I kinda inadvertently did it because I would add these words I looked up in talk variety shows. Sometimes when I looked it up, the word's meaning was clear and memorable from the way it was used. However it was only in that moment when i read or heard the word being used right after reading the definition. So when the card came to me in the anki deck (just the word by itself) I drew a complete blank and I couldn't bother myself to put full sentences on the front because I knew I would never actually read it ( it is way too much work) and I knew I would ignore the unknown word most likely (because I tend to be lazy like that).


From the beginning of the inception of my Korean deck I knew I would half ass it because I do not care about Korean as Much as I care about Japanese and on a subconscious level from learning Japanese to a high level I think I knew that drilling stuff on anki is a waste of time. By halfassing I would take the anki reviews as an opportunity to be exposed to the word rather than actually testing myself so I would make hard instead of unknown etc etc because if I actually did that it would get painful and time consuming ( it'd be nothing more than brute force memorization for some of these words and at the time it just felt impossible to rmemeber the meanings). Then one magical one day I realized I can now actually remember/learn and engage with a lot of the cards coming up in deck. I reached this point from Learning enough words from and spending enough time with watching Korean talk variety shows to the point I developed a significant intuition for Korean. In my experience Once you have spent enough time and know enough words you develop a high propensity for remembering stuff in that language. So I started "actually" doing the deck and converted cards to cloze deletion format as I encountered them.

This was the blog entry where I wrote about this topic.
https://choronghi.wordpress.com/2016/08 ... abilities/
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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Tue May 30, 2017 8:18 pm

For a moment this morning I thought I was perma-banned. I was contemplating life without this log until I noticed that there were no other users online for this forum and then I figured something had gone awry unrelated to my posting!

Anyway @Sayonaroo: I'm not entirely following your post. Could you restate what the advice is?

@Evita: A very quick look and it seems I could take off the first few hundred as already-known words! Still, your list may be very similar (or at least drawn from similar materials) to whatever I would come up with. It may make a good starting point. Thank you.

Something Sayonaroo mentioned in the previous post is another point to consider: Some people advocate flashcards without the testing - simply see the word and its definition at the same time and treat it as a brief exposure to the word. Others (and probably the majority of language learners I imagine) advocate trying to remember the word first before 'flipping the card over'.

Furthermore is it the case that one simply wants to flip through the same set of flashcards each sitting, seeing each one once... or does one want to have problematic flashcards come up multiple times within the same sitting? I guess going with any existing flashcard app would mean this policy has already been set by the app's creator.

I've labored the point long enough so I'll wind up this segway on vocab so my language log can continue in a more general fashion.

But I think the idea is pretty much set: by middle of next year I want to add 3000 words to my existing 'known' vocabulary so that I can exceed 5k. I expect that will bring me to feeling a lower B1 in terms of vocab. So basically I'm hoping to more than double the rate at which I have been acquiring words so far and I believe this can be achieved with a minor adjustment to my study regime by including some targeted vocabulary review.
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Sayonaroo
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby Sayonaroo » Tue May 30, 2017 11:13 pm

Furthermore is it the case that one simply wants to flip through the same set of flashcards each sitting, seeing each one once... or does one want to have problematic flashcards come up multiple times within the same sitting? I guess going with any existing flashcard app would mean this policy has already been set by the app's creator.
<<
Well if you use anki you can modify the settings (it has a lot of settings that you can tweak for your use). By "problematic flashcards come up multiple times within the same sitting" do you mean failing a card and then being tested on it again like 30 seconds later after you finishing reviewing the other cards? If so you can modify the steps in anki. By default it is 1 10 which means if you fail a card, anki will test you on that card 1 minute later and 10 minute later. I personally changed this to one step and made that 1440 so it asks me the next day. I used to waste so much time because I didn't know you could modify the steps.
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AndyMeg
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby AndyMeg » Wed May 31, 2017 1:30 pm

In case it helps you:

I'm giving Anki another opportunity but I'm using it differently. I downloaded Evita's vocabulary deck and what I'm doing is to go through 500 words each day, divided in short bursts no longer than 10 minutes each. I just see the word and try to remember or guess its meaning (just for a few seconds), then I see the correct answer and I ALWAYS select "Easy" because this way I won't get burdened with lots of reviews later on. After I see all the 5000 words of the deck, I plan to re-start it and do the same again.

So far this has been working great.
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qeadz
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby qeadz » Wed May 31, 2017 5:26 pm

AndyMeg wrote:In case it helps you:

I'm giving Anki another opportunity but I'm using it differently. I downloaded Evita's vocabulary deck and what I'm doing is to go through 500 words each day, divided in short bursts no longer than 10 minutes each. I just see the word and try to remember or guess its meaning (just for a few seconds), then I see the correct answer and I ALWAYS select "Easy" because this way I won't get burdened with lots of reviews later on. After I see all the 5000 words of the deck, I plan to re-start it and do the same again.

So far this has been working great.


I've been going through Evita's deck too now (thanks for sharing it Evita!). I mean Evita has done some manual work on the first 2500 so thats the part which interests me because its more likely to then be in line with the kind of content I'll be consuming.

The plan is (currently) to work through it and take out known words until I have the top 2000 unknown. That will form the base of my deck and then I'll add words from content I work through too (I'm assuming Anki makes it easy to add words to a deck without losing the status for existing words!)

I'm most likely to squeeze my vocab reviews in while standing in line for a coffee or that sort of thing. For that reason the review will have to be done on my phone which means word lists are out and MemRise/Anki are in. Of the two it seems Anki is recommended by a number of folk so I'll give that a whirl.
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Re: Slow-cooked Korean

Postby AndyMeg » Wed May 31, 2017 7:38 pm

qeadz wrote:I've been going through Evita's deck too now (thanks for sharing it Evita!). I mean Evita has done some manual work on the first 2500 so thats the part which interests me because its more likely to then be in line with the kind of content I'll be consuming.


I actually want to explore the whole deck first before deciding on how many words I would like to "get exposed to" from it. So the plan of the 5000 words may change at any time.

I also asked Evita about her deck and how she chooses the words. I'm waiting for her answer because that'll help me decide on how to use it.
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