Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

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smallwhite
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:26 am

blaurebell wrote:Frankly, the initial period is always the most difficult period for me. I know most people find it the most enjoyable period because it's all new and fresh, but for me it's the time where things seem most uncomfortable...

Yes, you find your current stage more difficult than others do, and I noticed.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby blaurebell » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:27 pm

smallwhite wrote:So you do find your current stage more difficult than others do and I did notice.


Actually no, I mean it in the exact opposite way! Experienced learners get through that initial drudgery and strain during the honeymoon period with their new language. When they start to feel less enthusiastic they have already gone through the hard part and breeze along just fine, at least with Cat I languages. The difference for me is that I don't have a "honeymoon phase" for any language. I get through that initial period on discipline alone. I have my honeymoon as soon as I understand and can read and watch all sorts of interesting stuff. In a sense I'm a pragmatic learner, I learn languages not because it's particularly fun for me to figure out their structure or to experience that feeling when things start to make sense. That might be mildly entertaining, but certainly not enough to keep me going. I learn them because I want to do stuff with them, speak to certain people, read certain books, watch certain movies, travel the country, do a photography project, that sort of thing. Languages only become fun for me when I can understand them already. I'd never be the kind of person who gets wanderlust for 20 languages and then abandons every one of them after the initial enthusiasm wears off. I can see why some people like that, but it definitely isn't for me. That's doing only the bit that I don't particularly enjoy! Best sign that you yourself ride the wave of your enthusiasm is that you've only done 138h of Russian and moved on to some other language. As I said, people dabble, but it needs real grit and good reasons to get anywhere with it. I doubt "It has more speakers than Greek" is a good enough reason.

Now, is Russian more difficult for me because I don't have a honeymoon phase? Nope, I don't think so. I don't think anybody can find things new and fresh for 6 months or more. With Russian that initial drudgery takes a lot longer than most people find acceptable and longer than most people can stay motivated on enthusiasm alone. So, for Russian the honeymoon phase can't possibly get you over that initial part where things are hard, even if you're incredibly enthusiastic and motivated. Russian always needs discipline and a lot of it. If anything Russian is easier for me than for other people, because I don't have the end of the honeymoon period throwing it all into question. It starts hard and becomes easier with time. The longer I keep going the more fun I have with it, not the other way round. And I'm quite likely more disciplined than most people too, which is in part my personality, in part my illness. Resisting cake on a daily basis is much harder than sticking with Russian. So, no, you're not picking up on anything there. I'm complaining about Russian right now, because I've already spent more than half a year with it on my second attempt and haven't yet broken through the comprehension barrier. 9 months and I still understand way more Italian without ever having learned it beyond A2. It's annoying, it's frustrating, I want it to end and finally watch some good movies instead of spending my time with endless dictionary lookups for several hours a day. I can't though because I don't understand those yet :cry: I'd be having fun if those dictionary lookups were to include only 10-15 words per page like I was with French after like 300 pages. However, after 500 pages I'm still at 30-50 words, with the occasional page of 60+ :? Other people would be frustrated with yet more grammar and yet more anki. There is no way around the drudgery with Russian.

What's so special about complaining after months of drudgery? Fortheo complained a few days ago about hardly any progress after 8 months and Xmmm just complained about being disappointed with only reaching B1+ comprehension after 2 years and having been stuck there for an entire year. Neofight replied that he passed B1 after 2.5 years, so Xmmm is actually right on track. And Neofight says he's been complaining for 4.5 years already, which suggests that it doesn't get much easier with time :? So, really, I don't know why you see my complaining as being any different from anyone else's complaining. We all use different methods - I mainly read, Xmmm watches a lot of stuff and reads transcripts, Fortheo does mainly grammar right now. And we're all complaining. Must be because Russian is hard.

And well, part of it is probably also a bit of the Russian mentality that's rubbing off: Endless complaining is very Russian indeed. My mum is a first class complainer and I frequently throw in sentences like "And now we talk about something nice instead"! I think learning Japanese doesn't really invite as much complaining although it's more difficult. When you get frustrated with learning Kanji you can just watch some anime with some wild story line and inappropriate humour after some sub2srs or watch some extremely funny Japanese motivational videos that don't really have to make much sense. You can also reread one of your favourite mangas in parallel text with the translation. It's all part of the game. Try the same with Russian and in most cases you won't find any subtitles for the movies, neither Russian nor any other language and for some reason even the comedies are so dark that they are actually depressing. I watched one recently and they were mainly shouting at each other for 2 hours. Also, none of the really interesting content apart from extremely hairy classical literature is even translated into other non-slavic languages, so forget about parallel content. So, what do you do? You just complain a little more and do some more grammar / anki / intensive reading / other kind of torture so that maybe one day you might have some actual fun with the language.

But then, I will stop complaining for now, and better get on with some stuff or the drudgery will never end.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:32 pm

blaurebell wrote:What's so special about complaining after months of drudgery?

Nothing! It's great because you're telling me a lot about Russian! I was just wondering why:
smallwhite wrote:
blaurebell wrote:... the Russian case system is definitely much more confusing than... Vocabulary might be a little harder with Russian too...

You seem to find Russian much, much harder than everyone else on the internet and on this forum, and you're just at reading. Could it be your method? Or the books?

You gradually found one reason, your using books harder than other people's, and I'll bear that in mind. The rest of your messages about how hard Russian is, how the language is harder than Cat IV Greek and the journey tougher than Cat V Japanese, I read with interest as I'm considering learning it. Not many people write so much so detailedly about the difficulty of Russian.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:11 pm

Have you seen these charts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_declension

Nouns, adjectives, pronouns and numerals are declined in three genders and six cases. This is more than enough to make my head spin.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby Arnaud » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:06 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Have you seen these charts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_declension

Nouns, adjectives, pronouns and numerals are declined in three genders and six cases. This is more than enough to make my head spin.

No more impressive than the french conjugations table 8-)
I mean nobody learns these kind of tables by heart, you learn them little by little, one tense or case at a time, then you train with exercices, etc...
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:35 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Have you seen these charts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_declension

Nouns, adjectives, pronouns and numerals are declined in three genders and six cases. This is more than enough to make my head spin.

Cat II German makes my head spin already with just 3 x 4 :(
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby blaurebell » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:04 am

Russian

I’m now 96% into the book and will probably finish it today. I wanted to try to finish it yesterday, but in the end I was just talking to my brother for a long while, so that didn’t happen. My brother actually reads a lot of Russian stuff in translation, so he gave me quite a few book recommendations, which I have put on the list. No idea whether I can get my hands on them - getting Russian books over here is really expensive and if it’s not available as an epub it’s basically impossible to find. But well, I’m not quite there yet anyway, about 4500 pages of translations left before I try my hand at some of the difficult stuff he was suggesting.

Spanish

I’m 78% into GdUdE B and the lessons are getting longer. I’m through all the subjunctive exercises and I would say that they helped quite a bit. It’s much clearer to me now when I have to use a subjunctive and when not, but well, I still find past tense subjunctives rather uncomfortable and wouldn’t use them on the fly while speaking. I definitely need more practice. I have also been reading my Piglia book which feels definitely uncomfortable too. It refers to lots of history I’m not familiar with and my reading comprehension has always been a bit more wobbly with Spanish. That alone means that I’m taking a bit longer with the book than I would have liked and that I’m actually not finding it overly enjoyable. The book itself is really interesting though! I can’t wait to finally finish with my Russian binge-reading challenge so that I can spend a bit of time with Spanish in LWT.

Also, remember the camera I wanted to get as a reward for when I finish FSI? For this one I actually need different parts that are all more or less expensive: a bigger film processing tank with specific spools, film holders, a new lens that has enough coverage for large format and the camera itself, which has to be either imported from the US or bought over there directly. We’re actually planning to travel to Memphis next year, so I might try to buy it there, but well, my health isn’t too predictable, so I’ll have to see how that works out. In any case, so as to split up the expense I have started getting the parts together now after a friend of mine pointed me to a really good deal for the film processing tank. I simply jumped on it because it was half the price. I was feeling a little guilty for jumping on it before having finished FSI, but then I realised that FSI has 4 volumes and I already finished one of them! What a coincidence that I need 4 different parts and that there are 4 volumes! So, I can split up the expense, and give myself a little more incentive to keep advancing. I haven’t really done any FSI lately because I’ve been reading too much in Russian. I didn’t want to add another source of strain, but I’ll continue it once I’m through with my Russian reading challenge.

French

I haven’t done any French for about a week, which irritates me. After the Piglia book I’ll definitely go back to reading in French. I did however watch the Suite française movie, which was quite alright - not in French though. Also, here comes a really strange coincidence: Totally independently of my own interest my brother also discovered Némirovsky recently and sent me two of her books. One of them I already had, so I was a bit confused, but then realised that my brother must have sent it. The other book I didn’t even notice, because I had ordered so many Némirovsky books, that it just didn’t stand out. I thought that I had ordered it myself! I actually already read it and enjoyed it a lot. He recommended a couple more books by her, that I haven’t yet read, so I might just continue on my Némirovsky reading spree.

Italian

I’m still watching TNG in Italian. It’s still fun and I pretty much don’t have any problems understanding it at all. Something funny: There are a few sentences of French in one of the episodes from the first season that stood out for me this time. I have seen TNG about 4-5 times already and I never understood these sentences before. Funny that exactly the French sentences stand out to me, when I’m watching it in Italian.

General

I have been keeping track of my hours and somehow they were going down and down although my health is reasonably alright and I’m pretty motivated. Then I realised what the problem was: I’m procrastinating again. Since most of the stuff I did the last few months were pretty low intensity - watching stuff, reading stuff in languages I enjoy, no more than 1-2h of straining activity, I simply wasn’t procrastinating much. Well, now that I’m on my Russian binge-reading challenge, finally, I’m actually subconsciously trying to avoid it, because it is still a strain. So, the forum and Facebook suddenly started to take up much more time. Normally I have enough restraint to simply do stuff and don’t waste so much time on checking Facebook every 5 minutes, but that obviously doesn’t work when I’m trying to avoid stuff. So, I actually installed a browser extension that only allows me 20min of Forum and Facebook until 6pm. This way I at least procrastinate with TL TV or radio rather than things that aren’t really productive. I will keep the extension activated until I’m through with my Russian reading challenge and then I should have less reasons to procrastinate again.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby Arnaud » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:10 am

blaurebell wrote: My brother actually reads a lot of Russian stuff in translation, so he gave me quite a few book recommendations, which I have put on the list. No idea whether I can get my hands on them - getting Russian books over here is really expensive and if it’s not available as an epub it’s basically impossible to find. But well, I’m not quite there yet anyway, about 4500 pages of translations left before I try my hand at some of the difficult stuff he was suggesting.

- There are tons of lists everywhere, but nonetheless I'd be interested to see yours.

- For paper books, I use two options: ozon.ru et momox (on the amazon market place)
Ozon.ru is very reliable, you just have to double the price to take into account the shipping costs to europe (they are indicated in your basket, anyway) and be patient if you use the cheap shipping costs: from 15 to 30 days of waiting (there is also the option of making a big order shipped by DHL in a few days, but I never used it). Your bank will take a fee for the convertion rouble/euro (usually one euro, if your order is not big)
- On momox, you can find super cheap 2nd hand books: 1 or 2 euros for 500pages books in pristine condition: add 3 euros for the shipping costs, and that's it. The problem is to find the books in the amazon search engine: the cyrillic doesn't work and you have to try different kind of transliterations sometimes. Momox is good for classics and sci-fi/detective pulps, less good for contemporary literature.
The problem with russian paper books is that some cheap editions are printed on newspapers paper: grey, thin, almost transparent paper that becomes yellow and brittle in a few months: it's better to avoid these editions that are not agreable to read (better to read on an electroninc device). So before buying, always read the comments: usually people indicate the quality of the paper, of the printing, etc: it's very common to read that in the comments of ozon.
- For epubs, you can go on litres.ru (usually 2 or 3 euros by book+ 1 euro you bank will take for the rouble/euro conversion): I used it once and it worked well, nothing complicated. Otherwise, the "free" sources of russian epubs (or fb2 that is the common russian format) are very impressive and complete, you can find almost anything...
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby blaurebell » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:05 am

@Arnaud: Thanks for all the good suggestions! Once I get my LWT to 85% known vs unknown I might try to get my hands on some paper books then! I only knew of a couple of shops in Germany that import books and they tend to be really unreliable. My mum used them once or twice and always ended up sending stuff back because they sent the wrong book or things like that.
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Re: Lilly's log - French, Russian, Spanish and Italian

Postby blaurebell » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:44 am

Russian

I have finished my second book in Russian: Девид Эддингс - Владычица магии (the second book of David Eddings' Belgariad Saga). The book is about 300 pages long and I almost doubled my known word form count with it. Right now my database looks like this: 13,313 known word forms, 25,540 total word forms, 52.1% known vs unknown ratio. This makes for 4757 words learned in 210h, which isn't half bad. With Anki I needed about 50h to learn 1200 words and this doesn't include the time I actually spent creating the cards. And with LWT I'm also seeing lots of real life grammar and I'm reading actual books meant for native speakers. So, in the end LWT turns out more efficient for me. The known vs unknown ratio is also finally moving. It was 47% throughout the first book and stayed there fore the whole book, but with the second book there is finally some movement in the right direction. This means that the number of new words is slowly going down now. My goal is 85% known vs unknown and that will still take a while. For the second book I needed 82.26h and 16.45min per page. This is still slower than my first book in French, for which I needed only 9min per page. I'm catching up though and maybe the next book will get me to a more reasonable reading speed, where I can enjoy reading a little more. Total pages read: 573!

The next book I will be reading is the third book of the Belgariad saga: Девид Эддингс - В поисках камня. This one only has 250 pages, so it should be a bit quicker in general. These books always start with a prologue that is somewhat more old-fashioned in style, so the 28% unknown words on the first page probably shouldn't discourage me. It's only 6 pages long and then it should go down to more reasonable measures. Still, isn't it frustrating to still find pages of 28% unknown words after more than 500 pages? Oh Russian, why do you have to be so difficult?

General

Health went to hell again. I wonder whether there is a connection to Russian learning, since my health always tanks when I'm doing more Russian. Maybe it causes me some sort of stress? But then, it might just be a coincidence and it's just stress from a gazillion other sources. We're in the middle of paperwork and lots of mad planning for travel, so that might be more of a source of worry. In any case, I won't be pushing anymore or trying to do so many hours a day. If it's 1h it's fine, if it's 5h also fine. I'm making good progress anyway.

It really annoys me that I've been ill for 10 years and it's never getting any better. How annoying to always have to take it easy and behave like an invalid. Also 10 years of super strict diet and my health still tanks unpredictably. I'm so sick of it! Whenever this happens I wonder whether I should really just give up all my grand plans and accept the bitter reality: I'm too ill to reach my goals. But then, could I live with not even trying? I don't think so. I won't let myself get discouraged!
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: 20 / 100 Дэвид Эддингс - В поисках камня
: 14325 / 35000 LWT Known

: 17 / 55 FSI Spanish Basic
: 100 / 116 GdUdE B
: 8 / 72 Duolingo reverse Spanish -> German


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