AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

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tiia
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby tiia » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:56 pm

Es gibt übrigens auch Audiodeskriptionen mit männlichen Sprechern.

Ich hab gerade letzte Woche einen (deutschen) Film mit AD gesehen (und mit männlichem Sprecher). Wir hatten sie eingeschaltet damit ich mal einen Eindruck davon bekomme. Eigentlich war zwar der Plan sie kurz nach Anfang des Films zu deaktivieren, aber irgendwie waren wir dann wohl zu faul dazu.
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AlOlaf
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby AlOlaf » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:06 pm

tiia wrote:Es gibt übrigens auch Audiodeskriptionen mit männlichen Sprechern.

Ich hab gerade letzte Woche einen (deutschen) Film mit AD gesehen (und mit männlichem Sprecher).

Das wusste ich nicht. Wie heißt der Film? Habt ihr ihn auf DVD gesehen?
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tiia
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby tiia » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:55 am

AlOlaf wrote:
tiia wrote:Es gibt übrigens auch Audiodeskriptionen mit männlichen Sprechern.

Ich hab gerade letzte Woche einen (deutschen) Film mit AD gesehen (und mit männlichem Sprecher).

Das wusste ich nicht. Wie heißt der Film? Habt ihr ihn auf DVD gesehen?

Ja, von DVD. Der Film heißt „Mara und der Feuerbringer“, die Beschreibung als Fantasy-Familienfilm ist recht passend.
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AlOlaf
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby AlOlaf » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:18 am

For et par måneder siden opgav jeg at lære dansk, men min lidenskab for sproget er kommet tilbage igen. Jeg har for nylig set mange interessante videoer på dr.dk, men den her overgår alt.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:23 am

AlOlaf wrote:All this talk about "Matador" has made me think about my goals for Danish. I've spent the last five months or so playing around with Norwegian without achieving much of anything. My lack of focus is reaching alarming proportions.

I miss the days when the only language I wanted to learn was German. For years I threw myself 100% into my studies and never doubted that it was exactly what I wanted to do. Never having learned a foreign language before, I didn't know if I'd be able to reach fluency in German, but I didn't care. I was determined to put everything I had into it no matter what, and if I didn't succeed, so what? I loved it. It was pure, stupid passion.

Then the unexpected happened. I passed a test, and some Germans told me I was fluent. First I exulted. Then I thought "What do I do now?" My mindset changed. I convinced myself I needed a purpose to justify the time and effort required to continue progressing in the language, a purpose I couldn't find. Curious. I had never at any time had any real reason to learn German. Why should it suddenly become a factor?

I became restless. The next thing I knew, I was fooling around with Danish. Gradually, I realized I was developing the same kind of obsession for Danish that I'd once had for German. Danish just seemed so elusive and weird, and it seemed like hardly anybody was seriously trying to learn it. In fact, I couldn't find where anybody had really mastered it, at least anybody who wasn't a native speaker of another Scandinavian language. I thought I could be the one to go where no one had gone before.

Danish pronunciation proved to be every bit as difficult as advertised, but I located some resources explaining exactly how to produce the sounds. With this knowledge, I reasoned, along with relentless practice and lots of Italki lessons, my eventual success was all but assured.

But I gave up. I did what I said I wasn't going to do back when I first started my Danish log on the old HTLAL over four and a half years ago. Despite my best efforts, my progress in pronunciation became imperceptible to me over time, and I guess it just wore me down until I finally caved in. What's worse, I tried to justify my capitulation by saying I was taking a break to see if it would be beneficial.

I've spent the last several months trying to learn to speak Norwegian, accompanied by a voice in the back of my head screaming "Are you insane?"

The voice has been getting louder. I tell myself it makes sense for me to learn Norwegian because some of my ancestors came from Norway. The voice says "Following that line of reasoning, you should be studying Swiss German, too. Never mind you're already on course to achieve half-assed proficiency in two languages instead of having decent skills in one. Throw another one in there. You'll probably quit before you get anywhere with it, anyway."

As if that wasn't enough, the Norwegian movies I ordered are full of wild regional variations in the spoken language. "Which one are you going to copy?" asks the voice. "What are you trying to speak Norwegian for, anyway? They understood your crappy Danish in Norway last year, didn't they? Don't you think they'd understand even better if you could speak it to C-level? Come to think of it, that might come in handy in Denmark, too! Naah, never mind. You'll never do it. You're a quitter."

Unmerciful voice. What I need now is that "I don't care if it's impossible, I'm gonna give it my best shot anyway" mentality, the one I used to have when I was learning German. I had it with Danish for a minute, but I let it get away from me. I hope it's not too late to get it back.


Hi AlOlaf,
I admire the honesty of this post. It makes me want to really push you to succeed. Mind you if you didn't, sounds like you've already done a fantastic job with German. Well done! Whatever your path is - Danish, Norwegian, Swiss German, good luck. I'm with you in spirit!
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AlOlaf
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby AlOlaf » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:15 pm

Thank you, PeterMollenburg, your support is genuinely heartening. I've followed your log since HTLAL times and am one of many who admire your determination and work ethic. I know virtually nothing about French, but judging from the feedback you've received, you've managed to acquire an exceptional French pronunciation. Having tried unsuccessfully to achieve something comparable in my target languages, I appreciate the magnitude of your accomplishment. Well done yourself! Good luck and Godspeed.
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:28 am

AlOlaf wrote:Thank you, PeterMollenburg, your support is genuinely heartening. I've followed your log since HTLAL times and am one of many who admire your determination and work ethic. I know virtually nothing about French, but judging from the feedback you've received, you've managed to acquire an exceptional French pronunciation. Having tried unsuccessfully to achieve something comparable in my target languages, I appreciate the magnitude of your accomplishment. Well done yourself! Good luck and Godspeed.


Thanks for your kind words AlOaf. And it’s nice to know you’ve tagged along and followed my log(s) too.

I have to say though, that Danish pronunciation appears to be extremely tough to imitate like a near native, and not because I know, because I don’t, but because so many people, like you, who do know, say it is so. Although I’m intrigued by Danish somewhat (because it’s European, because of the tough pronunciation), I ought to avoid it at all costs, since decent French pronunciation has cost me masses of time (although worth it), and learning Danish isn’t really near the top of my wish list (but its nice to dream). I’m not really saying much here, guess I just wanted to share... anyway, I hope your Norwegian is coming along nicely.
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AlOlaf
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby AlOlaf » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:32 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:... anyway, I hope your Norwegian is coming along nicely.

Um, well, Norwegian is sorta on hold right now. It seems my recent language-learning freakout, which I would have expected to be over by now, has instead packed on muscle and sprouted heads. The raging, irrational behemoth overpowered me while I was trying to think sensible thoughts and convinced me that I could still master Danish if only I tried harder. So now I'm working on an insanely tedious and time-consuming project aimed at achieving a near-native Danish pronunciation.

It's about repetition. Danish has about 20 different vowel sounds, and pronouncing them correctly is like trying to get writhing, slippery little fish out of a barrel with one's feet. The Danish vowel sounds seem to lie somewhere in between English (and German) vowel sounds, very close, yet just a hair off, and that's what makes them so hard for someone like me to hear and pronounce. I got the idea that maybe if I isolated and repeated them enough, I'd be able to get them right.

To this end, I transcribed the audio of a three-minute Danish documentary about runestones and downloaded the mp3 file from YouTube. This I converted to an Audacity file, which I slowed down 40% and cut up into 732 small segments. Because I took pains to isolate the vowel sounds, the segments often consist of just a single word or syllable. Next I made an individual recording out of each segment by adding a pause for repetition and repeatedly copying and pasting the resulting segment/pause until the recording reached the length of one minute. I converted the resulting 732 one-minute-long Audacity files to mp3s, synced them to my iPhone and burned 12 audio CDs, averaging an hour in length each.

Optimally, I can use the Audacity files to hear how my own pronunciation compares to the native. If I can't muster the concentration to do that, I can listen and repeat with my phone while I'm lounging. And if I'm driving, I can listen and repeat then, too.

Should I show signs of making progress, I've already optimistically made recordings of the same material, only in complete sentences, and increasing in 10% increments up to normal speed. End goal: automatic, correct pronunciation. If it works, I'll be able to read a three-minute transcript while sounding Danish. This could take years.

I hope your French studies are going well.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:43 am

AlOlaf wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:... anyway, I hope your Norwegian is coming along nicely.

Um, well, Norwegian is sorta on hold right now. It seems my recent language-learning freakout, which I would have expected to be over by now, has instead packed on muscle and sprouted heads. The raging, irrational behemoth overpowered me while I was trying to think sensible thoughts and convinced me that I could still master Danish if only I tried harder. So now I'm working on an insanely tedious and time-consuming project aimed at achieving a near-native Danish pronunciation.

It's about repetition. Danish has about 20 different vowel sounds, and pronouncing them correctly is like trying to get writhing, slippery little fish out of a barrel with one's feet. The Danish vowel sounds seem to lie somewhere in between English (and German) vowel sounds, very close, yet just a hair off, and that's what makes them so hard for someone like me to hear and pronounce. I got the idea that maybe if I isolated and repeated them enough, I'd be able to get them right.

To this end, I transcribed the audio of a three-minute Danish documentary about runestones and downloaded the mp3 file from YouTube. This I converted to an Audacity file, which I slowed down 40% and cut up into 732 small segments. Because I took pains to isolate the vowel sounds, the segments often consist of just a single word or syllable. Next I made an individual recording out of each segment by adding a pause for repetition and repeatedly copying and pasting the resulting segment/pause until the recording reached the length of one minute. I converted the resulting 732 one-minute-long Audacity files to mp3s, synced them to my iPhone and burned 12 audio CDs, averaging an hour in length each.

Optimally, I can use the Audacity files to hear how my own pronunciation compares to the native. If I can't muster the concentration to do that, I can listen and repeat with my phone while I'm lounging. And if I'm driving, I can listen and repeat then, too.

Should I show signs of making progress, I've already optimistically made recordings of the same material, only in complete sentences, and increasing in 10% increments up to normal speed. End goal: automatic, correct pronunciation. If it works, I'll be able to read a three-minute transcript while sounding Danish. This could take years.

I hope your French studies are going well.


My French is currently going well, thanks :) AlOlaf,

As for your Danish. Well to relate to my French experience, I think your plan is sound. I spent a lot of time slowing things down. If it wasn't the actual speech that was slower (although it was, but not by my workings, as it was beginner's course material, which by default is usually slower, and it was, compared to everyday speech), but what I did was pronounce the sounds very slowly and carefully. I did this predominantly with the nasal vowels, as I really wanted to sound authentically French, and found these sounds to be the trickiest to pinpoint, differentiate and produce. I didn't use audacity or a similar tool but I did slow down my own speech and focus on single syllables as you are doing, but with somewhat less vigor perhaps. I also focused on tongue and mouth position and took some quick reference notes. Given the nature of Danish and how many unique vowel sounds there are, it makes sense that you have to go further with such activities (as you are). As I progressed through course material I would imitate everything and speak every written word aloud, always acting as an acute monitor and corrector of my own utterances.

With time, I could speak a lot faster and still be devoid of most pronunciation issues. And, bigger chunks of speech became the focus, as since as you likely realize, sounds in isolation can change in faster speech or in succession with other sounds, and sentence intonation and tonic stress can vary from one's native language. Still, to this day though, even though I have been noted as having pretty decent pronunciation, I still find imperfections in my speech for which I always need to be on the lookout for. Recently in New Caledonia, I came to the conclusion that my speech didn't seem French enough, that is was lacking a bit in nasal quality. So, I conclude that pronunciation is like the learning of vocabulary - an ongoing task for as long as you are actively willing to improve your language, and even when you're content with your level, size of vocab, that pronunciation should be focused on always. I hypothesize that we do it (check our pronunciation) in our own native language(s) but have become so accustomed to it that it's completely automated, and may have been so since childhood sometime. Perhaps through years of living in the home country of one's TL, that process would eventually become automatic for the TL as well (and maybe even with enough learning outside the TL country as well). So my advice here, as that once you are comfortable moving into much more complex Danish utterances with pronunciation skills you are content with, always be on guard with your pronunciation - in other words, don't get lazy. Yes, you can certainly become comfortable and potentially completely at ease, but don't be sloppy is my point.

I have discussed the FSI's charts discussing hours of study to reach language A, B or C for an English native speaker in numerous posts over the years. With regards to pronunciation if you want to sound as natives do, then depending on how many tricky phonemes there are to master (judge for yourself) this could be correlated to how much extra time is needed to reach level X, Y or Z, with a native sounding accent, since such difficulty lists exclude accent reduction, or at least to the point of native-like production.
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AlOlaf
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Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:11 pm
Location: USA
Languages: Speaks: English (N), German
Learns: Danish, Norwegian
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Re: AlOlaf's Log (Danish/German/Norwegian)

Postby AlOlaf » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:41 pm

Thank you, PeterMollenburg, for sharing your experience and astute observations. That anyone should see value in what I'm doing is a pleasant surprise, and it's especially gratifying to know the approval comes from someone who's already reached the very goal I'm striving for.

Pronunciation is, of course, only one aspect to be dealt with when learning a language, but I think it's an important one, probably because I'm mainly interested in speaking. Obviously, if one lacks vocabulary or grammar or can't understand what's being said, a stellar pronunciation won't be any help. But if all the rest of the building blocks are in place, the quality of one's pronunciation can make the difference between being taken seriously or not.

That's what I want, to be taken seriously. I have no desire to try to impersonate a foreigner, nor do I harbor any illusion that I'm capable of doing so. My goal is to duplicate pronunciation exactly, even though I know I can't do it. I know I'll fail. But in trying for the unattainable ideal, I can get close. And close is good.

An example is a German TV newsman who covers Washington, D.C., I forget his name. This guy speaks American English almost accent-free, with a marvelous command of stress and sentence melody. It becomes apparent he's not a native English speaker only after he's talked for awhile, and if you didn't know he was German, you'd be hard-pressed to pinpoint his native language. I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who would put in the time and effort to learn my mother tongue to that level, and I'm pretty sure people in places where other languages are spoken would feel the same way. Not that I think I can match this man's achievement (he's lived in the USA for many years), but I can aspire to it. There's Italki, after all.
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