The Great Korean Spiral Arm: A Hitchhiker's Excursion

[outcast]

After about a week without listening to Korean podcast today I did so for 45 minutes. Since last time I can pick up more words for sure, but there is a pattern to what I recognize. I would say in terms of what word types I pick up, they would be in the following order.

1. Nouns
2. Pronouns
3. numbers, days of week, etc
4. adverbials
5. adjectives and verbs

I am having a particular tough time picking up verbs. I've been thinking about the reasons why. I would say it probably is because they (along adjectives) are the shiftiest parts of Korean, because they take many forms and have many endings. Also their placement may still be something my ears are not totally used to, and maybe also their meanings are harder to remember than nouns. So anyway, I will try to think of ways I can improve detecting the verb, since it is obviously the prime element of any sentence.

[Jiwon]

But maybe the biggest transgression I saw was the incorrect use of -ㄹ 수 있다. It's a grammar construction that is used to say "can", for example, "I can lift this box". In English, this word is also used for permission (Can I do this or that?) but Korean has a different grammar construction for that and you can't use -ㄹ 수 있다 for that. But this book did it. I was speechless when I saw it. As I said, my impression about this book is "amateurish" and "incompetent". I don't recommend it.

I found one example of this in book 1. It was a conversation in the exercises of lesson 16; the grammar explanation looked fine to me.

A: 네 노트북을 쓸 수 있어?
B: 아니, 지금 내가 쓰고 있어. 조지한테 물어봐.
A: 조지야, 지금 노트북 쓸 거야? 내 노트북은 집에 있어. 네 것을 쓸 수 있어?
C: 응, 써. 선생님한테 이메일 보낼 거야?
A: 아니, 내 어머니한테 보낼 거야.

A: Can I use your laptop?
B: No, I am using it right now. Ask George.
A: George, are you going to use your laptop now? My laptop is at home. Can I use yours?
C: Yes, you can. Are you going to send an email to your teacher?
A: No, I will send it to my mother.

In Pimsleur I learned "may I" phrases like "노트북 좀 써도 됩니까? = May I please use your notebook?", so I'd be curious to hear Jiwon's take on "노트북을 쓸 수 있어?". Is it possible that it's an acceptable form, but the nuance is more like "is your notebook available to use" rather than "may I use your notebook"?

It does sound very strange indeed. In fact, I was talking to my friend (who is also a native Seoul speaker) about this usage last night over 막걸리. We both reached the conclusion that without specification of the pronoun, "네 노트북 쓸 수 있어?" conveys the meaning of "Is it possible (for you) to use your laptop?".

I can think of some situations where -ㄹ 수 있어 can be used for permission, such as "숙제를 늦게 제출할 수 있을까요?" or "그럼 교수님을 언제 볼 수 있을까요?" - but these also convey the meaning of ability/inability. In any case, the most natural option for me would be "해도 될까요?" or "해도 괜찮을까요?"

[outcast]

Last few days I detect a noticeable improvement in my comfort level with the language in overall terms: the sounds roll easier out of my mouth (still difficult, but at least now I can read simple sentences on the first or second try without having a war with my own tongue). The grammar and word order feel more familiar too; for the first time I have a bit of confidence in this language. I could create simple phrases and generally get the grammar and word order correct, all while having a semblance of decent pronunciation. We are talking about the most basic of sentences, no longer than 5-6 words.

I must say at the risk sounding a trifle peremptory, that I can't see how learning Mandarin Chinese first, and then Korean, is NOT the best way to go for someone whose mother tongue is IE from the European sub-families. Of course, one cannot try both ways (you only learn a language once), but here is why I say the following:

1. Mandarin Chinese is a "bridge" of sorts between the structure of European and Asian languages: while Mandarin is heavily left branching like its other East Asian cousins Korean, Japanese, etc, it's basic word order is in fact SVO. Japanese and Korean are SOV, which makes these languages even more alien if you were to tackle them as your first East Asian language, so I feel Mandarin is a stepping stone if you wish. It is in fact an exception since most Sino-Tibetan languages are also SOV I believe.

2. Knowing the Chinese vocabulary already and the Characters is of great help in learning Korean. I can't see how learning Korean first (including Hanja), is as helpful. It no doubt can be as well, but the fact is that the flow of exchange was overwhelmingly one-way: from Chinese to Korean (and Japanese), so learning the source first just would seem to have more benefits. I see Korean words like 특히 , and just reading it doesn't really make things to clear, I will have to memorize the word. But then in the app dictionary I see the Hanja 特 beside it and immediately know the general meaning, and basically can skip memorization altogether. Because the great advantage of characters is that they are "personal". They take years and grueling hard work to memorize, but once you do they can be a powerful ally learning other languages that rely (or relied) on Hanzi as a script. I probably know north of 4000 characters by now, so there is almost no character in common use in Korean (or probably Japanese) that I don't know, since their required count is significantly less than Chinese. Of course, however, there could be things like secondary meanings or just the meanings have "drifted", so it is not a panacea, and there are quite a few unique characters created in Japan and Korea that if I see I will not really know the meaning of.

Of course I didn't really plan to learn Chinese and then Korean. I know Korean perhaps is the vogue language of the moment (you can even see that in our forums here), but at the risk of sounding snobbish I am not learning Korean because it is trendy or others are doing it, not even because of the great media Korea produces now. I mean no offense by this, but I had no plans or intentions of learning this language, but that is the beauty of this project! The only reason I started learning is due to the warmth of the Korean students here in China. They are solely responsible for making me take this path. Had I been in an environment here in China where I had no association with Koreans, I can with 97% certainty state I would not be learning this language now. The 3% is just the fact that having learned Chinese (one day), I may feel I want to learn another Asian language, but I bet it probably would have been Japanese. So things just happened like this but so far I feel the order of learning is the best possible!

[outcast]

I must mention though that for my personal situation, Click Korean has a major flaw: the explanation bubbles are completely fixed (even though I can see there is more to read inside), but I have no way of scrolling within the bubble or frame to move it up and down. I have tried different browsers and nothing works. It could still be I am missing some software, but in that case they should also let you know with some reminder on the website (which I may have missed, granted too).

It's not appearing to affect my understanding of the material, but occasionally I do feel that I was not able to read some further explanation in some prior lessons, because examples in future lessons have some usages I have to research for myself as to why it is so.

So far I had not complained because it is afterall free and I really demur at finding fault with freebies, but it is a bit of an issue regardless.

[Evita]

I just checked the site. It's been improved for mobile devices since I last used it, but I don't think I have your issue. I checked several lessons and their grammar notes, and I could read everything. I used Chrome on Windows 7. The only issue I saw was that the very bottom of Korean letters is sometimes cut off. That's strange.

[outcast]

Yes, I also have the Korean text cut out at the bottom, inconvenient when horizontal letters are part of the final.

[outcast]

I have been kept occupied with finals both for Chinese university classes as well as guiding a couple of English tutoring sessions, add on a few end of the year engagements and slowly preparing things to go back home for a few months at least, and consequently time has been at a premium. In between all and at the risk of preening myself, I have been able to really maintain an everyday study rhythm and volume, both Korean and Chinese, but I have not been able to sit down and update my language logs here, just no time. Finally I have a bit of a moment to redact an update.

I have finished book 1 of Korean from Zero, and I am now on lesson 17 of Click Korean. At this point I have gone over both materials at least twice, if not three or four times in some cases, so nothing is really "new". So my grasp of the grammar is fine, the problem is applying on the fly, which of course is quite near impossible with so little actual talking practice at this point. My listening also has been quite limited since I spend my daily hours of Korean mainly on grammar and vocab building. I just like it in this way, I can't just listen without at least believing I possess a basic understanding of what is going on grammatically. Pretty soon though my "free" materials will end (at least in terms of grammar), so I can review through other sources (TTMIK, etc), and just reinforce skills that way, but also give more time to listening. I will look for pretty easy material at first for intensive listening, since I have done a bit of just pure listening of full speed Korean with one of the podcasts provided to me, I believe by Evita. I just listen to the sounds, the cadence, etc, there is no intention at all to try to figure out anything, though I do look out for individual words that jump out.

My vocab is coming along, slightly slower than expected, but given I don't listen too much nor have I been able to find anything easy to read, so have read little, I am not surprised retention is low. As for now I just am going through the vocab lists of Click and Zero, plus the TOPIK frequency list where I am in the 600s, but of course I'd bet 75% of the words I have forgotten for active use and half for passive use, but if I see them again I may remember to have seen them before. Between those three sources and random words I learn from Koreans here, I estimate my thoroughly learned vocab at about 350 words right now, with 500 generally being the edge of A1. So just need to keep up the work, and slowly start making simple sentences.

[outcast]

I want to put into writing a bit of what has happened with Korean so far and what is ahead in the offing.

So far I have mostly followed the gameplan: I am using Click Korean and Korean from Zero's vocabulary lists to practice pronunciation while memorizing the words in good old fashioned rote. My attempt to take care of two tasks in one.Then for grammar I have been reading the grammar points of these two sources plus watched a few videos on Youtube on Korean grammar. As I said at the beginning at this long, my approach is different in this language acquisition attempt (my 5th): with French, German, and Mandarin I would go through the grammar sequentially as presented by my study materials and would try to master it as best as possible before moving on. I still had to go back and review several times. With Korean, I am just reading the grammar concepts and trying to keep them in mind, but then move on to the next lesson, no attempt at mastering. I thus somewhat quickly forget a lot of the earlier material, but then I have gone back. As I do this, the points begin to stick. So far I like this method. As I thought it might happen, just moving ahead in the lessons has allowed a few things:
1. Older grammar points reappear in new lesson so that in itself is a form of review.
2. If you totally forgot older points, and they show up in a new lesson, either you remember (after having to think about it, which I think is a great memory building tool), or I just simply try to go back and find it to review.
3. Patterns that I found hard to understand have made more sense when in a later lesson a comparison is made with a new pattern presented. This point here is important, because I realized in my other language journeys I would find a later lesson that clarified some prior point that was killing me, and I would be kicking myself for having wasted so much time reading the original explanation 20 times, when the explanation in a later lesson (or the comparison made with a new grammar point), totally clarified it.
Finally, I am going through a frequency list for word acquisition. I am around entry 670 of the TOPIK list. I am hoping that the combination of this list plus the vocab from two or three different courses (one aimed at students, another at adult learners), will expose me to a broad enough vocabulary source so that I am acquiring what are really the vast majority of essential and highly productive entries.

For 2017, Korean is my co-pilot. Chinese is still pilot, at least until March. German will start creeping back in very shortly (maybe as soon as two weeks!), and then by April maybe become the pilot, Chinese vying with German to be pilot, and with Korean to be co-pilot, it will depend how I feel progress is progressing (sorry for this turn of phrase), and other things. Then later in 2017 Hindi will certainly become the pilot with Korean second, and Chinese and German probably on basic maintenance. In other words, unlike the other languages where my efforts and focus energy will fluctuate, Korean's will always be steady. Not the main focus, but also never dropped off.

I purposefully did not make a goal at the start of the this log. But later I have said I would like to try to sit a TOPIK 2 by early in 2017. By that I meant a TOPIK I level 2, not a TOPIKII !! And by early I mean by the time I leave China in late February or early March. This log began in July of 2016, but the first month was brainstorming and resource gathering. Then I spent a couple of weeks on Hangul and learning the sounds and rules. Then I went on a month long tour of eastern China, when I came back in late September I did not start seriously with Korean until mid-October.

This means I have been formally acquiring Korean for 2 1/2 months now. In this time I have reached an outstanding A0+! Haha, well I am near A1 which of course is not so difficult in terms of time. So if we say optimistically three months for A1, then I should need another three months or so to A2, this is because the A levels have same number of words and similar volume of grammar patterns to be acquired. It is after A2 that the levels begin to truly double, both in words and time. So I potentially could reach A2 by April, which is only slightly later than my target. With A2 I could potentially sit the TOPIK1 level 1, but no way I could sit the TOPIK 1 level 2. Based on the description that would need I am a very strong A2+ to near B1. At my current study pace that would be sometime in October. I had written in a prior post I would like to be able to "attempt" a level 2 exam by sometime early this year, but I really though there was a one-to-one correspondence with the CEFR, that is not the case.

In any event, let's assume this scenario turns out. It would mean I would reach B1 in Korean in about 12-13 months of study. That actually sounds plausible and not far-fetched at all, for someone with quite a bit of language learning wrinkles on his face, and a non-to-be-dismissed discount via Chinese. As many here probably know, fellow Polyglot Leosmith is challenging himself to get to B2 in Korean within just about the same time (a year, starting from November or December I believe). And he not only is just if not more experienced than me, he also appears very ambitious and disciplined. So it will be interesting to see in what level both of us end up at the end of this year.

B1 would suit me fine by October. If I do reach it, I know I won't be satisfied for long. I only feel some degree of "freedom" when reaching B2. I guess it would take me another year beyond October for that, unless in 2018 I just accelerate my Korean efforts.

So, to sum up, let's see where the road takes me with this one.

ps! - I need to really up my listening of Korean, so far it has been rather tepid. I want to listen optimally for 40 minutes to an hour every day. I really must do this part. In one year that would be 360 hours. Normally 1000 hours are needed for a language to really start to become easier to listen without having to place your entire attention to the task of listening itself.

[leosmith]

it will be interesting to see in what level both of us end up at the end of this year.

Yes it will. Happy new year and good luck!

[qeadz]

I'm cross-replying from what you asked in my language log, but in yours because the reply is more fitting here:

Korean: A Comprehensive Grammar
is my next purchase. I actually found a partial PDF of it online and it's _exactly_ what I am after. It looks to be a great reference.

Check it out if you're looking for something more like a reference which doesn't shy from giving a full description.