There are worse things I could do... (FR, RU, ES)

[MamaPata]

People are always welcome to take over my log with terrible television!

I have been doing some language stuff over the last few weeks but nothing too exciting to report (except that I am now on Season 4 of the Good Witch, sorry Ani!). I started reading a couple of things, including a Robin Hobb book in Russian (one of the free book of the days from LitRes). A bit concerningly, it was really hard and there was loads of vocabulary that I didn't know - honestly I wasn't even sure what was happening. Some of that is about the fantasy of it - it throws you straight in and there are lots of imaginary words/names/etc (that in English I would recognise as constructed) - and some of it is that I was utterly knackered and not in the right frame of mind. But it's also a worrying sign for my Russian. I don't know what I am going to do about that though.

I've been thinking a lot about what I was saying last time regarding goals, and I definitely need a goal. I'm finding it very hard to prioritise my languages and cover all of them - it feels like I'm hopping between them and barely doing anything for any of them. I have no idea how actual polyglots cope! A goal may not make me do any "proper" study (even when the DELF exam was right in front of me, I didn't really do any "Real" study) but it will help me feel better and prioritise things. It's just good for me in general - I always have goals! And now that my degree is finished, it's a weird jump to not having goals. (How many more times do I have to write goal before it stops looking like a real word?)

So, I think my longer term plan is to really prioritise French - I'm tired of just getting by. I need to demand more exactitude of myself. I don't have a particular date or exact target - but I'll keep mulling that over. I just know that French is going to be my main language, and that I will try to maintain French and Spanish alongside it, while really trying to push myself and make progress in French. The French course I was looking at seems to be falling through (their fault, not mine) so I'm thinking about doing a Spanish one. That will mean that I have a weekly time when I have to do some Spanish, plus a chance to meet some new people with similar interests. I'll also get back into doing LEs and italki lessons for Russian a couple of times a month. I already have some great, affordable teachers who know me, I just need to get back into actually seeing them! These won't be enough to make real progress, but that's fine. They should allow me to keep Spanish and Russian ticking over, but mean that I can focus on studying French in my own time.

However, for the next two weeks, I'm only going to focus on Spanish, so I can get good enough to do the course I want to do. A fortnight of dedicated Spanish work should pull back some of the mistier bits (I recognise grammar when I hear it, but my active skills are useless!) and mean I humiliate myself less in the class.

[MamaPata]

How on earth did it get to be the end of September?? Madness.

Well, all of my plans from my last post obviously fell through. Ho hum. My ongoing project came back with a vengeance (and will continue to), plus the rest of the general life stuff got in the way. The Spanish course I was thinking about isn't going to work, so the need to be ready for it lessened. So I am back to not having any goals and feeling twitchy about it. (Though the general sense that I want to very slowly work on my French, while maintaining Russian and Spanish is pretty much consistent).

But I did do a few things. I finished The Good Witch in Spanish - when I went to count it up for the SC, I realised that there were three episodes in the middle that I had just missed. And it had had literally no impact on my enjoyment or knowledge of the plot, which says a lot about the show really! I've also been reading Mansfield Park in Spanish. I always forget how annoying Edmund is.

In terms of french, I watched the show Les oubliées, which is available on 4od (I assume only if you're in the UK but who knows?). It has automatic English subtitles, but as I was pretty knackered, I wasn't too bothered. Obviously it would be better with French or no subtitles, but you take what you can get. I wouldn't particularly recommend it. It's not amazing as a source of study because they don't actually talk that much - mostly it's atmospheric music. So I am counting it for the SC because I spent the time watching it, but I'm only counting half the time. And generally, I didn't think it was a fantastic show - there's lots of the same shots and a lot of moving camera, like they were testing out for an arts film later.

That said, I did pick up a few amusing phrases:

Rouler sur l'or
La goutte d'eau qui fait déborder le vase
C'est son violon d'Ingres

Those I all knew from context or had vaguely come across before but didn't know actively. However, this one I did not know and think is hilarious:

Avoir vu le loup

[MamaPata]

Over the last week or so, I've been dipping into Blaurebell's log as well as PM's thread about how to get from B2 to C1, because I've been trying to think about how best to balance my languages while genuinely making progress with French. There is a lot of excellent advice in both of these (and a lot of advice that doesn't and never will apply to me!). Generally, I think I've done pretty well in speaking and extensive listening and reading - I do not have PM's problem about leaving courses at all! I love to abandon coursebooks. But, as I've been reading these threads and thinking about my goals, it's really illuminated that I need to find a way to incorporate intensive work and grammar work into my French studies, while still pushing on with the super challenge. I am increasingly seriously thinking about moving to a Francophone country in the not too distant future, and if I want to do that, I need to have pushed my French properly into the C levels.

One of the things that Blaurebell talked about earlier in her log was the feeling that her Spanish was behind a veil. She could read, etc, but everything felt a bit hazy, unlike for French where she exclusively did intensive reading until she reached intermediate level. I definitely relate to this with French. In Russian (which got a lot of LWT time in the run up to my exams) I have a much better ability to translate into English and I either know things or I don't. In French, it's more blurry. I can understand a text completely but I really struggle to translate it and I find it very hard to put into words what I've read. Also, when I speak, it can be quite French... but very inaccurate. Some native phrases, etc, but also too many grammar mistakes. I don't even want to think about writing!

I am absolutely keeping up the extensive work - I've got a few series to watch, I've subscribed to a bunch of podcasts (I still don't really like podcasts, but I'm getting better at paying attention), I've got several books lined up, my youtube is in French and I was already watching a lot of youtube. Last weekend, I was completely wiped and starting to get ill so I just took it easy. I ended up watching a lot of Tibo InShape (the things we like in our TLs...). After a few videos, I could really feel the change as my mind switched more and more into French. I was thinking in French, some of his intonation and phrases were slipping into my French... Last year's Super Challenge had such a visible effect on my French and I really think there is so much to be said for the Super Challenge. I absolutely want to keep up general extensive contact but I also think I need to balance it out with some focused work.

When my computer gave up the ghost, I lost access to LWT. I'm currently rereading La Reine Étranglée and looking up words, but that's a slightly longer process than being able to do it with the wonderful LWT software. So tomorrow I'm going to set up (well... I'm going to try) a version in web browser, so that I can still work on that on my borrowed laptop. I've also ordered two second hand Grammaire Progressive books (hopefully with minimal writing inside!) in order to work on grammar, plus the Schaum's book I already own. At some point, I will also probably take a few lessons and start trying to write more.

We will see how it goes over the next few weeks - wish me luck!

[Elenia]

Good luck! I'm sure you won't need it

[MamaPata]

It turns out that I am very briefly going to be in Paris this week. Does anyone have any cheap and central bookshop recommendations? I appreciate cheap and central is asking for the world, but I am there for a stupidly short time (and all in the very centre) and have little money.

[zjones]

MamaPata,

I am reading your log from start to finish because I'm having some trouble with the intermediate stage of French learning (it's so different from being a beginner!) and your log seems to tackle the move from B1-B2. When you started the log in 2016, what level were you in French? I'm assuming B1 but I wanted to ask because I couldn't find an answer in the beginning.

Thanks!
Zelda

[MamaPata]

MamaPata,

I am reading your log from start to finish because I'm having some trouble with the intermediate stage of French learning (it's so different from being a beginner!) and your log seems to tackle the move from B1-B2. When you started the log in 2016, what level were you in French? I'm assuming B1 but I wanted to ask because I couldn't find an answer in the beginning.

Thanks!
Zelda

Hey,

That's lovely to hear - I hope it's useful and not just me grumbling!

In reference to levels, yes I was probably about a B1 but with two disclaimers. 1) I find the CEFR system completely incomprehensible. I had expected to find the B2 DALF really hard, based on how B2 is described. 2) I studied French at higher level to the end of school (about 4 years before I started my log). I hadn't particularly kept it up, but that definitely helped me a lot, mostly in terms of grammar. I think I'd have struggled with the super challenge more without that. It's that basis in grammar that holds up the accuracy of my French today (I really need to do more grammar/intensive work, as I've mentioned).

How are you finding it all? My biggest problem at this level (B1 up) is that it's so hard to see the progress, people are willing to ignore your mistakes a lot of the time, and you can see all the stuff you have left to sort out and learn! Such a long process...

[zjones]

Hey,

That's lovely to hear - I hope it's useful and not just me grumbling!

In reference to levels, yes I was probably about a B1 but with two disclaimers. 1) I find the CEFR system completely incomprehensible. I had expected to find the B2 DALF really hard, based on how B2 is described. 2) I studied French at higher level to the end of school (about 4 years before I started my log). I hadn't particularly kept it up, but that definitely helped me a lot, mostly in terms of grammar. I think I'd have struggled with the super challenge more without that. It's that basis in grammar that holds up the accuracy of my French today (I really need to do more grammar/intensive work, as I've mentioned).

How are you finding it all? My biggest problem at this level (B1 up) is that it's so hard to see the progress, people are willing to ignore your mistakes a lot of the time, and you can see all the stuff you have left to sort out and learn! Such a long process...

Thanks for your reply! I feel like grammatical knowledge makes reading much easier, especially knowing what to expect with word order, pronoun placement, direct and indirect objects... the labels are scary but the ideas are very useful. Have you tried the CLE grammar books yet? You might like the Grammaire Progressive Niveau Perfectionnement, if you like workbooks. It's definitely B2+.

It's tough to be at the B1 level. Like you said, there is SO much more to learn, and it's tough to see progress, which can be discouraging. The areas I'm struggling with are speaking and listening, because I haven't found a way to make those activities fun. I'm trying to decide whether I should get as much input as possible (read and listen 4+ hours per day) and hope that it translates into output, or if I should force myself speak and constantly feel like I'm poking my eyes out.

[MamaPata]

Thanks for your reply! I feel like grammatical knowledge makes reading much easier, especially knowing what to expect with word order, pronoun placement, direct and indirect objects... the labels are scary but the ideas are very useful. Have you tried the CLE grammar books yet? You might like the Grammaire Progressive Niveau Perfectionnement, if you like workbooks. It's definitely B2+.

It's tough to be at the B1 level. Like you said, there is SO much more to learn, and it's tough to see progress, which can be discouraging. The areas I'm struggling with are speaking and listening, because I haven't found a way to make those activities fun. I'm trying to decide whether I should get as much input as possible (read and listen 4+ hours per day) and hope that it translates into output, or if I should force myself speak and constantly feel like I'm poking my eyes out.

I do quite like grammar and having done Latin for a few years in a relatively traditional style, pretty happy with all the labels. I'm just not very good at making myself to drills or at paying attention to grammar when I use languages.

Yeah, I do own a few of the CLE books (and some others!), I just haven't actually managed to do them yet... I suspect the answer is to take them to work and try and do them in my lunch break but...

Ahhh yes, love that feeling. I am sure you can find a way to make listening fun! I know you're into weights etc, do you watch YouTube videos about that in French? I know TiboInShape and JuJuFitCats do a lo of related videos. I find their videos quite entertaining and I'm really not into it.

Speaking I never had a problem with. I have a big mouth in all languages, so I'm harder to shut up than I am to get to talk! Personally though, always think it's better to avoid stabbing your eyes out! The input will help so do what you enjoy!

[MamaPata]

Haven't done a proper update for a while because things have been a bit bleh and I didn't really have anything I wanted to say. Languages have been continuing though. Mostly French (and mostly podcasts for French), but also some reading in Russian and Spanish. I think I have also had a Russian lesson since I last updated, which went well. I also added the Ship of Magic in Russian to LWT (I mentioned it a few weeks ago and having started the prologue without a dictionary, the prognosis was looking grim). I've only read the prologue, but that's all about serpent like creatures who live at the bottom of the ocean, so a lot of vocab I don't know. Some of those included: чешуя, лёжка, муть, грива. I'm not too worried about them. But I have now seen дно enough times for it to finally stick. Doing a very rough check of my first section, I knew about 77% of the words, which seems okay. I do wish there was a way of seeing the breakdown of a text when you have read it, rather than before (when it still has all the words you may know).

I have been reading articles in Spanish with LWT which is not too depressing - my vocabulary is better than I would expect, though far from good. I have also been reading Mansfield Park in Spanish and got to the half way point. Whether I will continue... eh... God, Fanny and Edmund are so irritating. It's been a while since I read Mansfield Park so I don't remember how much this was true of the novel itself. I think the translation doesn't have some of the archness of the original, but also my Spanish isn't good enough to necessarily get that when it is there. So I suspect I will not be reading more of Mansfield Park for a little while. I definitely need to get some more Spanish books and to find another series in Spanish to watch (though I haven't had time to watch any TV lately so we'll see). I really want another light dubbed series like the Good Witch or Miss Fisher (so sad that this isn't in Spanish on Netflix) to watch.

French is French. I started the third in the Rois Maudits series, I read Un Certain Sourire and Ta deuxieme vie commence quand tu comprends que tu n'en as qu'une. The second is self help masquerading as a novel, which means it is very easy to read. I enjoyed it but it's definitely not a great novel! Light holiday reading, I would say. Un Certan Sourire I really enjoyed - I really like Sagan and I will definitely be reading more (I'd only read her short story memoirs before). I've also been listening to a lot of podcasts, which I will post about separately.

In terms of my French passive skills, I think I have three main problems: exactitude, vocabulary and cultural knowledge. Vocabulary is never ending and I am constantly working on. The exactitude is interesting because it's not a problem I have in the same way for Russian - I find it much easier to translate from Russian to English, whereas I really struggle from French to English. It's like I understand the French but it's on a different shelf in my brain and I can't then map it onto English. Some of this is I think that I have been studying French for so long and for the last few years, mostly extensively. So while I absolutely understand what is being said, I can't put it into words. Whereas I did a lot more intensive work for Russian so I have a much better knowledge of a word and different uses. As I've said ad nauseum, I will be doing more intensive French work to make up for this.

The final problem is interesting, because I wouldn't have expected it. I have done a lot of classes for French and I am generally interested in politics/history, so I have been quite surprised to realise that I just don't have the French historical knowledge. This often means that I miss references, or it takes me longer to catch onto something than it should, even when I understand the words. This should be a pretty fun one to fix though!