Systematiker's attempt at a log

[LadyGrey1986]

Unfortunately, Uitzending gemist is not available outside the Netherlands. I discovered this when I lived in Belgium for six months. You could also try the Net in Nederland Channel. It is aimed at refugees who have been granted asylum and are in the process of learning the language. They have a daily podcast of the news. It is just the regular evening news, except there are closed captions available in Dutch. If you want to watch comedy or satire, I recommend Koefnoen and De Kwiz. If you are interested in protestant (if you forgive me the term, I use it in the sense of Christian, but not Catholic) religious life in the Netherlands, I recommend the daily Trouw. It is associated with the PKN (Protestantse Kerk in Nederland). As far as reading is concerned, many learners of Dutch recommend the young adult thrillers by Mel Wallis de Vries. I haven't read them myself, so..Hope this helps.

Since you kindly offered to be a godparent in the Team Scones and Tea, please feel free to point out any mistakes I made in this message.

Response first: that's a shame, but there's certainly something that works, because I used it in Germany. Now that I've got the right spelling, I can google around, haha (you'll note the German "Sendung" creeping in there, and my memory making me think it was about variety, German "gemischt", rather than having missed something). As for reading, aim a bit higher for me, please - the last thing I read before the MSB moved their Dutch section was "Sigfried" by Harry Mulish (Mulisch? Muelisch? I don't remember) and I had pretty decent comprehension (probably 3-4 unknown words per page that I couldn't get as cognates or context).

Regarding your post: I'll point out all that I see, if anything is too harsh, let me know. Your English is very good, better than many university graduates I know, so I'm going to offer suggestions like you're aiming higher than that.

a couple small errors:
1. "Protestant" gets capitalized.
2. "If you'll forgive me" is kind of a set piece, it needs the future.
3. The team doesn't need a definite article, since it's a proper noun.

Stylistically, one can tell that it is non-native, because your register changes back and forth, and you tend to use separated simple sentences where a compound sentence would be more natural (e.g., I'd have said "they have a news podcast, which is just the regular evening news but [or except] there are closed captions...). The phrase "learners of Dutch" strikes me as awkward, but you did well not using "Dutch learners", which would have been ambiguous here; possibly a relative clause would be best (you did the same of-clause with news in my example above, it's a hard thing to get a feel for). Lastly, I know (well, I assume) that you actually want me to correct things, but contextually saying "feel free" here doesn't quite match, because it's more if I want to do so. It made your sentence carry the connotation of "well, since you're wanting to do this, I guess you can do it to this post, too". You'd have been better off just with a direct request, and (if this is the aim of your "feel free") an additional statement about not holding back or something.

Now, you get to tell me if that's the level of correction you want, or if I'm being a pedant (I am a pedant, I just try to keep it in check ).

You are not pedantic. This is exactly what I meant when I said that learning a second language never stops. And as the US expression goes "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." Regarding "feel free", the point I wanted to make is indeed that I wouldn't feel insulted at all by your corrections, so you wouldn't need to spare me out of politeness. I know it is a lot of work to correct posts and it is a favour if someone takes the time to do so. I will try to return the favour for Dutch texts in the future.

Now on to Dutch. This is a link which might interest you.
https://kerkdienstgemist.nl/

I really underestimated your reading level! l. Are you interested in a particular genre? Would you like to read non-contemporary (ie 19th century) literature as well? Just from the top of my head, including some personal favourites:
-Knielen op een bed violen Jan Siebelink
-Russisch Blauw Rascha Peper
-Het Gouden Ei Tim Krabbe
-De Tweeling Tessa de Loo
-Het zwijgen van Maria Zachae Judith Koelemijer
-Het Achterhuis Anne Frank
-Eilandgasten Vonne van der Meer
-Hoe duur was de suiker Cynthia McLoyd
-Heren van de Thee Hella Haasse
-Harry Muslish (the author from Siegfried): De ontdekking van de Hemel
- Kader Abdollah Het huis van de Moskee

Some of these have also been adapted for screen:
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I-Q76sxmA4
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEhbgSiT-Fo
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OC3yFS8zo (Spoorloos=Het Gouden Ei)
Non-fiction:
-Sonny Boy by Annejet van der Zijl
-De Amerikaanse prinses Annejet van der Zijl

[Systematiker]

....

You are not pedantic. This is exactly what I meant when I said that learning a second language never stops. And as the US expression goes "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." Regarding "feel free", the point I wanted to make is indeed that I wouldn't feel insulted at all by your corrections, so you wouldn't need to spare me out of politeness. I know is a lot of work to correct posts and it is favour if someone takes the time to do so. I will try to return favour for Dutch texts in the future.

No on to Dutch. This is a link which might interest you.
https://kerkdienstgemist.nl/

I really underestimated your reading level! l. Are you interested in a particular genre? Would you like to read non-contemporary (ie 19th century) literature as well? Just from the top of my head, including some personal favourites:
-Knielen op een bed violen Jan Siebelink
-Russisch Blauw Rascha Peper
-Het Gouden Ei Tim Krabbe
-De Tweeling Tessa de Loo
-Het zwijgen van Maria Zachae Judith Koelemijer
-Het Achterhuis Anne Frank
-Eilandgasten Vonne van der Meer
-Hoe duur was de suiker Cynthia McLoyd
-Heren van de Thee Hella Haasse
-Harry Muslish (the author from Siegfried): De ontdekking van de Hemel
- Kader Abdollah Het huis van de Moskee

Some of these have also been adapted for screen:
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I-Q76sxmA4
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEhbgSiT-Fo
-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OC3yFS8zo (Spoorloos=Het Gouden Ei)
Non-fiction:
-Sonny Boy by Annejet van der Zijl
-De Amerikaanse prinses Annejet van der Zijl

Right, good, so I hit the right level. I'm happy to do so...and on that note, it's "off the top of my head" as a set phrase .

In general, too, "here is a link..." would be better, because you're showing me something or offering something for my attention, whereas "this is..." is more explanatory. It's a subtle difference. For example, if you're handing me a paper with something written on it, "here is XXX" fits, because I don't know what it is, but if you've invited me in your home, "this is the dining room" works, because I can see it's a room and you're giving me more information, explaining. More confusingly, though, if you're handing me that paper and we regularly engage with docments, like in a work situation, "this is XXX" fits again, because I'm expecting a document relevant to our context, but you're telling me what sort of document it is. The immediate context really governs that usage. I hope that wasn't confusing, but I fear it was.

Thanks for both the recommendations and the links! Maybe next week I'll even give writing something in Dutch a shot... maybe...

[Systematiker]

Right, so this is neither the continued musing about my Werden as a language-learner, nor is it the post about all the books that came in the mail that I wanted to make. Instead, it is the post that I'm leaving tomorrow and won't be back until so late Sunday that it might as well be Monday, so I won't be posting any of that stuff for a bit.

I do intend to do the "airplane test" in the actual airplane for French. And I'm bringing stuff with me, because I don't know how much free time I'll have. Maybe I'll get a big SC jump after all.

See y'all next week.

[Elenia]

See you next week!

Out of interest, what is the airplane test?

[Systematiker]

See you next week!

Out of interest, what is the airplane test?

As opposed to the "airport test", in which one sits at the gate and browses the forum on the mobile...

I think it came from Prof Arguelles in the old forum - the airplane test is to take a novel in your target language on a plane trip see if you can read it with fluency and enjoyment, having no opportunity to look things up, and not much else to do.

Well, with wifi on the airplanes now it's not quite the same.

[Systematiker]

Things learned so far:

1. This forum is a nice relaxation break, and I can't stay away
2. The wifi here sucks
3. One book in French was not enough for the plane ride (go reading speed!)
4. The conference movie event is a French film (go SC while traveling!)
5. I forgot how much my conference buddy was into languages (she was a French lit major, has some Spanish, Romanian, and Japanese too)
6. I'd still rather be home.

[Systematiker]

I'm back and somewhat recovered. I was really surprised at how much I actually managed in language study over the weekend, though it was mostly the surprise of a French film and time in the airport/plane. Amélie Nothomb's Stupeur et tremblements was my "airplane test" going up, and I not only enjoyed it, I finished it before we landed - much to my surprise. Saw Intouchables while there, read some while I was there, and on the way back read a little over half of Niebla by Miguel de Unamuno (along with an entire novel in English).

Books and progress:

Spanish
Niebla, Miguel de Unamuno; 66%
La Palabra del mudo (I), Julio Ramón Ribeyro; 10%
Conversación en La Catedral, Mario Vargas Llosa; 2%
Lituma en los Andes, Mario Vargas Llosa; not yet started
Iacobus, Matilde Asensi; started repeatedly in the past, never finished (and I like her, I've read stuff by her before, no idea why I've never gotten through it)
Cien Años de Soledad, Gabriel Garcia Marquez; I've not tried it recently, last year it was too hard
Memorias de mis Putas Tristes, Gabriel Garcia Marquez; I've read this before in Spanish, just ordered a copy to re-read it
Obras Completas, Federico Garcia Lorca; because poetry, not read much yet
And a couple of public-domain things by Benito Pérez Galdós, like Doña Perfecta which I bailed on before.

French
Stupeur et temblements, Amélie Nothomb; finished
Le Roi de Fer, Maurice Druon; about 1/3
La Vérité sur l'Affaire Harry Quebert, Joël Dicker; 32%
Rien ne s'oppose à la nuit, Delphine de Vigan; not yet started
Et si c'était vrai..., Marc Levy; not yet started
Le Nom de la Rose, Umberto Eco; I've read it in several languages, and parts of it in French before
Le Rouge et le Noir, Stendhal; I just read it in English, but I'm not super motivated to read it in French, I've read the first couple of chapters
Various public-domain works, mostly Balzac and Proust

Swedish
Svenska Folksbibeln
Vägen Till Jerusalem, Jan Guillou; not started
Tempelriddaren, Jan Guillou; not started
Röda Rummet, August d; not started

Danish
Bibel på Hverdagsdansk
(I really need to find something here! I've got some stuff from Aarhus Universitet, the monthly free Tænkepauser and the monthly free e-book, as well as the Søren Kierkegaard Skrifter and NFS Gruntvig's stuff online, but it's a bit hard!)

Dutch
De tweeling, Tessa de Loo; ordered today
Heren van de thee, Hella Haasse; ordered today
(choices here were dicated by price; I really wanted De ontdekking van de Hemel but I couldn't get it for less than $30)


As for musing on langauge learning:
I wrote already about the official examinations and having to push so hard with those; during that time, I bailed on Korean almost entirely, and both Spanish and Italian were fitful until my grandmother was on her deathbed. That sounds random, but what happened was that the last-minue nature of needing a flight meant that I found out about a week and a half before going that we'd have a day-and-a-half layover in Paris each way (that was about all that was doable). Now, my grandmother strictly instructed me to make the most of Paris coming and going (as well as to not stay longer if she wasn't done yet - what a lady), and right before this, someone said "oh, you like languages? Here, have all this stuff", and gave me tons of (probably pirated, but I don't know) materials.

I discovered Michel Thomas. I did the entire basic course twice, and the advanced course, before we left. All of a sudden, I could get by in French, I could communicate in the hotel, I could go shopping. Of course, the program said "after this, start reading", so I got a subscription to Le Monde. After coming back, I did the same thing (not as rushed) in Spanish (and started reading El Pais) and Italian, though I didn't finish the Italian advanced course or get a newspaper subscription. I started it in Dutch, too, but didn't get past like CD 3, I just started reading. I dropped Italian pretty quickly, because I didn't have time to do everything and itañol was annoying me.

I really thought that I had discovered the key to how I learn langauges - get enough of a leg up to start reading, then read voraciously. Pad with movies (at the time, on youtube). The hard truth was coming, though: I did a 6WC for Korean, thinking I could use Pimsleur for the same leg up, and get to reading simple stuff. Right in the middle of that, things got busy. Korean wasn't working the same, and over a few months I first stopped watching, and then reading much. The MSB moved their Dutch section to the magazine, so there was no more browsing, I had to know what I wanted. Korean was a miserable failure, Dutch was too much trouble to keep doing, and I had less and less time for Spanish and French. Comprehensive exams were coming up, I had two dissertations to finish, and things just got pushed out of my daily life. I got down to an occasional pocast in Spanish and French and the news blogs, and by that time, I wasn't understanding much at all.

Well, there's one more post in there about transitioning in the last couple of years, but I've got some insight about what did and didn't work.

The method actually worked OK for what I tried it for, and I did see some decent results. I probably bailed right around where I am now in this Super Challenge, with a bit more reading and fewer films. Having the balance the other way this time seems to make production better. The two main issues were that it didn't stick, and that it didn't work for a more difficult language. Things not sticking must have to do with volume and neglect - I didn't get to a critical mass in any of the languages.

A consideration about this is to compare Spanish then and now: I'm much better productively now than I was then, despite the similarity of time spent - this doesn't speak for film over reading, though, because what is unreflected is that now I've got a huge amount of listening that isn't in my SC numbers, and my reading isn't as minimal as the SC might reflect, because I'm not reporting blogs either. In terms of volume, I'm simply better in Spanish now because I've consumed way more in Spanish this time around.

Here's another consideration, based on the Spanish-French-Dutch; as before, that's the order of strength for me. Yet this time around, it only takes me a few pages to get "in the groove" reading French, where I need longer in Spanish. But scroll up and look at the numbers: I've read more in French. I probably read more in French than Spanish then, as well, becuase I actually paid for Le Monde and only read El Pais online.

Something else neat: Reading ability and vocabulary never really went away. I could read novels then, and I can read novels now. Starting out, it was harder than I remembered it being; now, it's easier than I remember it being. There's clearly been some change, but not nearly as much as with listening, speaking, or (ach!) writing.

Another thought: I laddered Spanish through German. French I learned through English. Spanish is stronger (but then, I've done more in it). While reading, if I have to stop and translate a word in my head, or even look it up (I use monolingual dictionaries in both) and then think it out, Spanish processes through German, and English through French. If there's interference in my spoken Spanish, it's German; if there's interference in my spoken French, it's English.

OK, that's long enough, so one more post will come about German in 2013 and starting everything over in 2016.

[LadyGrey1986]

Veel leesplezier toegewenst vanuit Den Haag!

De Tweeling is overigens verfilmd.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i6GxhA8zkM

[Systematiker]

Anyone who is reading this log and perhaps waiting on those promised other updates: I'm still here... Seriously, it is not supposed to get this busy until like Advent. I was expecting a couple more chill weeks...

Minor reading and podcasts across all languages, but that's it at the moment. Uff, tomorrow evening, come quickly.

[Systematiker]

So here at last is the final piece of my considerations about language learning.

What made a huge difference for me, mostly in the latter part of 2012 and in 2013, for German was the final push to sound appropriate to my position. I had always mixed in dialectical expressions and sayings, but it was in 2012 that I began to look into Swabian and Bavarian as languages in their own right, which also led me to look at how natives code-switched with Hochdeutsch. I knew I would have to pass a Rigorisum (like comprehensive oral exams, but after the dissertation), so I was concerned about spoken eloquence (it was also open to the public). A friend, who was also the pastor who performed our wedding ceremony, was part of the expression I was aiming at - he was quite well educated, but communicated successfully with everyone across situations...and his weekly sermons were availabe as a podcast. I patterned my speech on his, my advisor's, and my father-in-law's, which gave me a good mixture of male German idiomaticness for the south. I included all three in order to get a good spectrum across social situations; my advisor and father-in-law I spent a good amount of time talking to. This sort of intentional pattern and mimicing has not only influenced my speech pattern, it made me flow better - rather than lexical units that I had to assemble, I had patterns of speech. I really worked on this for 9 or 10 months, and it made a huge difference; my spoken ability was idiomatic, and I was often mistaken for a native speaker (or further in the conversation, where my accent showed up, for a heritage speaker). This is perhaps a less-than-applicable principle, to find speakers to pattern speech after and get a bunch of input, and then mimic. It worked for me because it was people I knew, I knew their social station, and I was already clear on minute shades of meaning. Interestingly, it never had that much effect on my writing, which is still clearly non-native.

I think it would have been a beneficial practice already around C1, but I'm not sure how anyone not living in the language and with concrete people can do it. I haven't even thought about doing it for other languages, though I have noticed that having had the practice makes me do it a bit with some podcasts - I subvocalize when I can keep up and know where the sentence is going. It's not a planned practice right now at all, though I am able to do it in Spanish, Swedish, and Danish, less well in French.

Another significant factor across langauges is my particular situation. I've said elsehwere a bit about this. I use a lot of sermons and church services, becuase it's something that I'm pretty sure won't bore me, and I usually have enough familiarity with the subject to not get lost even when I'm just starting out (see: Swedish and Danish). Additionally, if the service follows the historic liturgy, I know where it is and hit things that I have lots of familiarity (the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, set parts of the liturgy, etc). The same thing happens reading the Bible. I get instantly comprehensible input - because it's something I have as a significant part of my life already.

Hmm, that makes me want to do an experiment: find a completely unfamiliar language and see how much of a traditional liturgical service is immediately comprehensible through having internalized the bits in other languages. OK, let's play "who reads this": first language to get five votes, I'll do it in. If it's really wild, you may have to help me find a western rite service in it!

I don't suppose there's much to say about re-starting in 2016, after all, that's the beginning of this log.

I've decided to start logging my podcast minutes separately, to get a better idea of how much input results in improvement. I'm starting today, so I'll post that here periodically.

My Dutch books came yesterday, but I haven't had time to start them yet. I've done only a small bit of reading - I still notice that I need a page or so to "get in the groove" and not have a lot of effort in Spanish, yet French is immediately at the lower level of effort. I don't know why that is. I started reading a book in Danish as well, and feel like it is easier to read than that first page in Spanish. Odd.

Hebrew has stalled, because I haven't been able to sit and do it much lately. Latin and Greek have been getting some reading practice, which is better than nothing, but I need to focus in on them. Especially if I want to try active Latin production. Absolutely nothing for Anglo-Saxon or Icelandic, which is ok, because they were just for play anyway, and I'll do some when I feel like it. And I'm totally not being tempted by the thread about Language Transfer and how it's a better MT, and they have Swahili...I have enough at the moment. After the Super Challenge, perhaps, Swahili and Russian. And I totally didn't put a book in Afrikaans on my tablet. Nope. Not me.