German:
Slacked off during the week, but got it back together from Friday.
Hugo: Did a first pass of chapter 10. The passive construction kicked my behind. Hugo
German really needs to be a 750 page book rather than a 250 page one. There need to be
more examples, more explanations.
The following two reviews from amazon.co.uk sum up my feelings nicely
Quote:
The smash-your-bones-out approach
The book boasts that you will attain a good working knowledge of German in a mere three
month period, which is of debatable merit. While she lulls you into a sense of security
for the first seven chapters, easing you into the language like a lathering, hot,
relaxing bath, she then proceeds by jerking you back out by your gonads: dangling you!
But of course this shouldn't be a surprise, since you must have paused to contemplate
the inevitable choking from cramming large language pieces into your head without
chewing it sufficiently - Everything she writes is succinct, and I would advise anyone
who decides to proceed with this book to pay close attention to what she writes: no
verbosity included.
----------------
It doesn't just immerse you in German, it throws you in at the deep end, and puts it's
foot on your head to keep you drowning.
I was looking at my German A2 text, and I dont think it covers passive voice at all!
Had there been more examples, and explanations, this would have been a super awesome
book.
LingQ: I explored the site for the first time today, I like it! I like the text with
vokab approach. I add "Schritt für Schritt", and I will cover the passages. I learn
vokab in context, isolated word lists do not work for me. I will use this resource for
"light" study, to be used as a supplement to my usual intensive in-depth approach to my
learning learning resource.
I also toyed with the idea of going through the important highlighted words in the
collins easy learning dictionary to improve my vokab, but decided to postpone it for a
month. I do not yet know enough German to be comfortable with the example sentences in
the dictionary. I will do this after I finish Hugo German.
Here is a chill melodious German song I came across.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C08akCUyjrw -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=C08akCUyjrw
Passive voice
Outcast made a really helpful post on passive voice.
Sentence in question: Ihr wurde der Führerschein abgenommen.
The translation says "They took away her driving licence".
outcast wrote:
Remember that in your sentence, the ACTUAL agent of the action (the
person that takes away the driver's license), is left out. That is one of the only
reasons people use the passive in language.
The agent of the action in an active sentence is the subject (nominative)
The object that is directly the target of the agent's action is the direct object
(accusative)
The person affected or that is the "patient" ("suffers" or "enjoys") the action of the
verb is the indirect object (dative)
Thus in the active:
Man hat ihr den Führerschein abgenommen
(man = agent that takes away the license; DEN Führerschein = the object directly
affected by the verb, it is the thing taken away; ihr = the person "suffering" this
action, usually called the "patient")
You could replace "man" with "Die Polizei", if you knew it was them who took the
person's license away. Thus:
Die Polizei hat ihr den Führerschein abgenonmmen.
This helps make the Transformation to the passive more clear. In the passive, the
direct object or accusative becomes the subject or Nominative. Thus, Führerschein
becomes the subject:
Der Führerschein...
The dative, or the "patient", the person that suffers the taking away of the license,
cannot be changed, EVER. Thus:
Der Führerschein wurde ihr abgenommen.
In German that sounds a bit ackward because German word order tends to favor pronouns
before actual nouns. "Ihr" is a dative pronoun, "der Führerschein" is an actual noun.
Therefore Germans will usually place "ihr" first, which places the grammatical subject
"der Führerschein" to follow after (thus triggering inverted verb 2nd order)
Ihr wurde der Führerschein abgenommen.
It is this word order that at times throws us non-natives off and takes some time to
get used to. We think it should be the subject when it is not.
Finally, the subject or nominative of the formerly active sentence (the Agent of the
verb), COULD be introduced with "von", if you knew who it was.
Ihr wurde der Führerschein (von der Polizei) abgenommen.
I hope the step-by-step helps.
Something I missed in last weeks ItchyFeet.
http://www.itchyfeetcomic.com/2014/03/d ... returns.ht ml -
http://www.itchyfeetcomic.com/2014/03/d ... returns.ht ml
Standpunkt = point of view (standing place in comic)
Lebensmittel = food (Life stuff in comic)
Thanks to the commenter who pointed that out
Gemuse on 06 April 2014
Outcast's post (which I hadn't read since I wasn't on the forum lately) is excellent. I
can't take it in right now, but I'll definitely come back to it in the next day or two.
Thanks very much for posting it!
Annett Louisan's so easy to listen too! I might not know every word but it's lovely to
hear something slow and clear. She's now on my youtube collection. I've not heard of
her before. Is she well known in Germany?
I don't know if you like older/weirder music...I came across a Weimar Republic music
hall (Vaudeville) act called The Comedian Harmonists. The Nazis hated them. They're
just so jolly and the music is fun. Not all the recordings are as clear as each other
but they all make you smile:
Personal favourites:
Irgendwo auf der Welt ("Somewhere In the World")
Kannst Du pfeifen, Johanna? ("Can you Whistle, Johanna?")
Mexico
Ich wollt' ich wär' ein Huhn (I wish I were a chicken)
Downloadable mp3s
https://archive.org/details/ComedianHarmonists-51-60 - here
Apparently, they were 'rediscovered' in the 70s when a German film called 'The
Harmonists' was made about them...
yantai_scot on 08 April 2014
yantai_scot wrote:
Annett Louisan's so easy to listen too! I might not know every word but it's lovely to
hear something slow and clear. She's now on my youtube collection. I've not heard of
her before. Is she well known in Germany?
I dont know if she is well known here, but here is the story of how I discovered her.
In my Goethe Insititut class, a song of hers was played. Right when I heard that song,
I became enamored with it, and the singer. When I returned from class, I spent quite
some time hunting for the song from whatever lyrics I had managed to decipher (I did
not know the singer either). I could have asked the instructor, but I guess I was too
shy. Found the singer finally. Here is another song of hers you might like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn7QCknl8tw -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn7QCknl8twAnd the song which started this all for me (the theme of the day was adjectives):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43HAtuyUZwA -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43HAtuyUZwAThere songs are songs which I would have loved, German or no German. It's a pity non-
English songs get orders of magnitude less coverage than English songs. There are some
great non-English songs out there.
Thanks for the mp3 links, I will check the group out.
Gemuse on 08 April 2014
German:
Ugh, was planning to review Hugo German but could not get to it.
Lingq:
Schritt für Schritt Lessons 1,2
I decided to cover the A2 vocab list that I posted:
http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prf/pro/hdb/Pr ... e_Testbesc hreibung_A2_Fit2.pdf -
http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prf/pro/hdb/Pr ... e_Testbeschreibung_A2_Fit2.pdf
List starts around page 70. 15 pages.
Was planning to do 4 pages today and 4 pages tomorrow. Nope, not gonna happen. It took
almost the whole day to do just 2 pages. I had a dictionary by my side, made notes, and
looked at the example sentences. The sentences are great as they are at A2 level, and
teach stuff which I can assimilate, with the kind folk at HTLAL helping. There were
many words which I had encountered before, but the meaning of which I had forgotten.
Gemuse on 12 April 2014
German:
I miscounted the word list pages, actually it's 29 pages
Today I was able to do 4 more pages of the wordlist (total 6 pages done), not as many
words to look up as yesterday, but still it took me a bit over two hours. Revised half
of Hugo chapter 10 (till the reading portion at the end). Brain is saturated now. I
have some questions based on the words I covered today, but I am too tired to post
about them today.
My weekends are being consumed by German, leaving me no brain space to learn other
things which I want to for my work. People say 10-15 minutes a day works for learning a
language, I dont see how that could work for me. I am spending like 8-9 hrs a week, and
still my progress is slow. I have to cut down on the weekend study and somehow move
some of the study time to weekdays when I am too tired to do real work. I need the
weekend energy to do work study.
Agenda for this week: grammar review (placement test the next week). Adjective endings,
past forms of modal verbs, reflexive verbs, and if possible Hugo chapter 11. I also
need to do some writing in German (I got killing in writing in my previous test). Have
to shelve the word list study till after the test.
Gemuse on 13 April 2014
Thanks for the A2 vocabulary list. I won't be using it to learn new words, but it's still nice to take a look at it and figure out where I fit exactly (I think I am B1 understanding, but still just A2 for active skills).
I wished Dialang worked for me, but it doesn't.
You are definitely working hard!
Avid Learner on 13 April 2014
Recently got Schritte International 4, A2.2 level (yes, I know I have a problem) + the
XXL glossary (got the books only because of the glossary - it has the standard glossary
+ explanations in English + translation exercises, both ways, + solutions). As an added
bonus, each chapter in the glossary also has about two semi-detailed writeups on
culture and history of the German block. I got both books used for a total of about 8.5
euro shipped.
Did exercises from the first two chapters of the glossar. I quite liked the translation
exercises, nice sentences. The exercises were for Konjuntiv II + comparatives+adjective
endings. The translations from English to German have been particularly useful.
Unfortunately Hueber in its infinite wisdom has not released the glossary in English
for books 5 and 6 (but glossarys exist in other languages). A pity as otherwise I would
have bought the 5 and 6 books.
Here is an example of a translation exercise (translate to German) from the second
chapter:
Quote:
What do you think of these shoes?
-Arent they too lightweight?
No, right now I'm looking for lightweight shoes
Gemuse on 19 April 2014
Schritte International 4 XXL glossar: chapter 10 exercises.
Gemuse on 20 April 2014
I like what you're doing, Gemuse! How is the Schritte International 4 XXL glossar? I checked it out on Amazon but I can't see what it covers.
soclydeza85 on 23 April 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
I like what you're doing, Gemuse! How is the Schritte
International 4 XXL glossar? I checked it out on Amazon but I can't see what it
covers.
You cant? Have you tried the preview functionality?
http://www.amazon.de/Schritte-international-Fremds prache-Deutsch-Englisch-German-English/dp/3194518542 -
http://www.amazon.de/Schritte-interna tional-Fremdsprache-
Deutsch-Englisch-German-English/dp/3194518542
I am liking it. It would be worth getting only in conjunction with Schritte
International 4. And then too if its used. As I mentioned, I got the two because I
could get both books for about 8.5 euro shipped (combined).
I like the example exercise sentences they use, the explanations they have. And the
English to German translation exercises they have. The resulting German sentences are
not trivial, but at the same time, not out of reach. And the things that it asks you to
translate, it is useful dialogue, not artificial stuff. The book isnt perfect though -
for instance it did not explain the difference between "doch" and "mal" words when used
in Konjuntiv II sentences.
If you can get it at a library, definitely worth checking out.
Gemuse on 23 April 2014
Oh I was looking at the amazon for the US. It looks pretty useful, I will definitely look into buying it once I finish up some of the other books I'm using.
soclydeza85 on 23 April 2014
Did a revision this week in preparation for the A2.2 course.
We will be following Menschen A2.2. What I really hate is that the glossary of this
will
be released only next year. So I have to create the glossary by hand using a
dictionary,
and that is a massive waste of time. I noted down the meanings of words I did not know
for the 1st chapter today. Took me 3hr 15 min. Assuming 45 min of useful time, thats a
2.5 hr waste per lesson. 12 lessons, so a 30hr waste in the next three months. Ugh. I
wish the course was following Schritte international with its English glossary. I will
also do the Schritte international book in parallel, as that has a glossary.
Why the hell is Hueber taking so long to print the glossary? The book was released last
year, so thats like a 2 year delay. Glossaries in other languages (arabic, french,
polish) etc have been released, but not English. Doesnt make sense.
Gemuse on 27 April 2014
Today I did a few pages of Schritte international. Unfortunately, I will have to drop
it. Of the unknown words, only half were there in the glossar. It would take me about 15
hours to make the glossar complete (for the whole book). That is too taxing seeing as how I am already making the glossar for Menshen 2.2. This was very disappointing. I will still work on the exercises in the glossar (I have done half of it), but the main book and exercise book, have to shelve it for now.
I was looking at the glossar for Themen Aktuell, and that seems more complete. So, the
plan is to work intensively on Menshen 2,2, and work on Themen Aktuell 1 (A1 level)
during the next three months, for greasing the groove during the week. I'll also try to
see if I can also cover half of Themen Aktuell 2.
Gemuse on 28 April 2014
Gemuse wrote:
I was looking at the glossar for Themen Aktuell, and that seems more complete. So, the
plan is to work intensively on Menshen 2,2, and work on Themen Aktuell 1 (A1 level)
during the next three months, for greasing the groove during the week. I'll also try to
see if I can also cover half of Themen Aktuell 2.
I am impressed by how much you are working through the textbooks, but have you thought about trying to start reading simple novels with a Kindle? I was at about your stage when I started reading native materials and I found it really helpful. You only need a restricted grammar to start reading and the words you can look up as you go along.
If you do want to start reading I would recommend the cheaper Kindle, that sells for about 50 Euros; that plus a Collins German-English dictionary for 8 Euros is all you really need to start reading Harry Potter and the like.
patrickwilken on 28 April 2014
The idea is that the additional texts I read *should* count as reading. I know the
grammer at my level (and will learn it from the main text), so from the additional
texts I would just get the vocab and general solidification of things I already know.
I am also planning to get a couple of parallel text readers. Also, there is LingQ. I
have added a text at my level there, where each "lesson" is basically a short German
text.
Currently, I feel vocabulary is the bottleneck. I know the grammar for my level, but
there are tons of words for which I do not have the meaning for immediate recall.
I am hoping to move on to native material once I complete B1.
Gemuse on 28 April 2014
Hi Gemuse! How's your study going?
I've had a poor 4 weeks. Went from doing too much to trying a 'when I feel like it
approach' which was a disaster. I need daily/weekly minimums or I won't do anything.
I see your last entry was about native materials. I've got to flag up Tin Tin again.
I'm almost finished my second German version- The Black Isle. It's been great for
giving me examples of spoken German. And some of the vocabulary has surprisingly met
three ways with the Assimil and the Hugo (stuff about criminals/burglars etc). And,
while I've got the gist of it, there's enough of the vocab I don't get to return to it
again and again as I improve.
I've also started Hamster Hektor-
http://www.fischerverlage.de/buch/hamst ... in_hamster _sieht_rot/9783596808243
Most of the vocab is new but you can infer quite a bit. I have to admit to folding the
cover over to hide the fact it's a kids' book- something I'd never do ordinarily. And
quickly skipping past the full page illustrations... It's from a series on the same
hamster- it's all from his perspective and he's got a superiority complex so it's
better than it sounds.
Hope all is well!
Lorna
yantai_scot on 05 May 2014
I am now in the A2.2 German class, and I have written about my vokab woes in the
Kursebuch. This week I spent 4hrs just noting down the vokab from the dictionary!
Another 2hrs on homework and coursebook (this was productive) and 5hrs of class. I am
treating class as just speaking sessions (and trying to figure out the teacher who
speaks in German). It's all terribly inefficient. With me treating it as a speaking
session, it makes it a bit less terrible but still not happy about it. In class there
is the usual crap about giving students different words of a sentence and making them
stand so that the whole sentence is formed. It takes 15 minutes, when the utility to me
is maybe of 2 minutes. I gotta find a way to tune out when this inefficient crap is
being done and just work on my own from my noted vokab. In a class session the teacher
used to word "mal" and I asked her for an explanation. She just said something about it
"klingt besser" and having no meaning, and I was internally like this does not help me
woman, I need a better explanation.
Also, I feel that German is cutting into my productive time. There are many things that
I need to learn from which German has been taking away time from. I need to divert some
of the intensity away from German towards these other endeavors. So I expect a German
slowdown now.
Gemuse on 06 May 2014
I started using toggl. When there are long term things to be accomplished, and overall
per week work is just a small step, and motivation is lacking, then the time logged can
serve as a nice cookie.
So far I have 4 tasks in toggl
German
Tasks 1-3 (what these tasks are is not important.
Goals per week:
German: 10h
Task-1: 2h
Task-2: 8h
Task-3: 4h
This week I did:
German: 8h45 min
Task-2: 4h30min
Other tasks: 0
I am only counting the time actually spend doing work, excluding breaks.
It inludes 4.5h of German class, which isnt always high concentration work, but I am
counting the full time.
German:
I was confused between the difference between errinern and merken. Here
is a writeup I found:
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=2011070 5152825AAMGD9g -
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/i ... 1107051528 25AAMGD9g
And when "lauten" can be used as a synonym for "sein"
http://german.stackexchange.com/questions/6297/das-verb -lauten -
http://german.stackexchange.com/questio ... -verb-laut en
I need to start on Hugo again. The classwork is fine, but it doesnt seem to be teaching
me much besides vocab.
Also, I need to be more proactive in tuning out in the German class when the teacher is
doing useless crap; and just review my vocab notebook.
Book buys this weeK: Tangram Aktuell 3 (B1) parts 1 and 2 (all lessons, kursebook +
arbeitsbuch): 11.5 euro shipped (used). The second book has some minor tearing at the
bottom of the book, oh well. IMHO it should have beeb advertised as good, rather than
very good. But the book is unread as advertised.
Gemuse on 12 May 2014
Gemuse wrote:
The idea is that the additional texts I read *should* count as reading. I know the
grammer at my level (and will learn it from the main text), so from the additional
texts I would just get the vocab and general solidification of things I already know.
I am also planning to get a couple of parallel text readers. Also, there is LingQ. I
have added a text at my level there, where each "lesson" is basically a short German
text.
Currently, I feel vocabulary is the bottleneck. I know the grammar for my level, but
there are tons of words for which I do not have the meaning for immediate recall.
I am hoping to move on to native material once I complete B1.
Sorry to take so long to respond:
My sense is that your grammar is probably fine to start reading Harry Potter (or perhaps better Percy Jackson) now. You really don't need all this grammar to understand native German text. The sooner you start reading the sooner you'll start developing both a much richer vocabulary and a richer sense of the grammar.
Without much vocabulary it's hard to start reading without a dictionary, but if you have a cheap Kindle (50 Euros) and Collins pop-up German-English dictionary (8 Euros), you should be able to start reading today.
If I was you I would read the PJ series and HP series and then come back to the grammar. Both your vocabulary and grammar will be much richer at that point.
Anyway that's just my way - obviously everybody has a different way of doing things.
patrickwilken on 12 May 2014
Last week was a bit of a bust.
The week started off ok, but then I think I got some infection and was feeling tired
and sleepy all the time. Then the weekend came, I usually get some work done, but I had
many errands to run and was really stressed because of some unusual situation.
Time Logged:
German: 7h21min
Task 02: 1h02min
Tasks 01,03: 0h
Boo
I hope this week will be better.
Here is a handout on German passive voice I found useful:
http://clasfaculty.ucdenver.edu/tphilli ... passive-&# 102;orms-&-tense-names.pdf -
http://clasfaculty.ucdenver.edu/tphillips/grammar /passive-forms-&-tense-names.pdf
I also have a bunch of A2 level readers which I can read, with a dictionary. I should
get to them someday.
Gemuse on 19 May 2014
Again a bust last week. It started off great, but then from friday on, I barely did
anything.
German: 9h45min
Task 01: 1h05m
Task02, 03: zilch
I looked at the zu+infinitive construction last week.
Here are some notes from the webs which might be of use to someone:
zu + infinitive
Weil (because) + a dependent clause shows the reason for an action; however, damit and
um…zu (so that, in order to) show the goal of an action.
Damit is also followed by a dependent clause, whereas um…zu introduces an infinitive.
Sie macht das Fenster zu, damit sie nicht friert. = Sie macht das Fenster zu, um nicht
zu frieren.
She closes the window, so that she won't freeze . = She closes the window, in order to
not freeze.
Commonly, you use
--damit when the subject of the main clause is different from the
subject of the dependent clause, and
--um…zu when the understood subject of the
infinitive is the same as the subject of the main clause.
--------------------------------------------------
The verbs brauchen (to need) and scheinen (to seem, appear) are often
used with zu + an infinitive. Brauchen in the negative is usually translated as to not
have to, and is the opposite of müssen.
Es scheint kaputt zu sein. It seems to be broken.
Ich brauche heute nicht zu arbeiten. I don't have to work today.
Sein + zu + an infinitive is used the same way in English and German, but the
construction is far more common in German.
Das ist nicht zu machen. That can't be done.
Das ist in jedem Laden zu finden. That can be found in any store.
Other commonly used verbs with zu+infinitive:
versuchen to try
vor.haben to intend, to have planned, to have got on
vor.schlagen to suggest, to propose
Adjective+zu infinitive
only with:
einfach
interessant
leicht
schwer
schwierig
The subject of sein has to be the object of infinitive
Diese Aufgabe ist einfach zu lösen.
Verbs of perception
infinitive verb is used without zu
fühlen (to feel)
hören
sehen
spüren (to sense)
Also this link:
http://yourdailygerman.wordpress.com/20 ... e-of-zu-an d-um-zu -
http://yourdailygerman.wordpress.com/20 ... e-of-zu-an d-um-zu
I also wrote a couple of emails in German last week to Verkäufer regarding some
problems with orders. Naturally with the help of Wörterbuch + other books.
Recently I have been feeling like I have crossed another threshold in German. Still
some way to go to get to B1, but there has definitely been a level jump.
Gemuse on 28 May 2014
Gemuse wrote:
Recently I have been feeling like I have crossed another threshold in German. Still
some way to go to get to B1, but there has definitely been a level jump.
Congratulations!
patrickwilken on 28 May 2014
Thanks Patrick! But I feel I should have progressed much farther. A2 after 9 months is
silly.
This week was again unsatisfactory (like usual)
Times:
German: 6h 13min
Task 01: 5h (this was some forced work, not voluntary)
Task 02: 22min
Seeing how draining Task 01 was, I am revising downward the target goal to 90min per
week for Task 01.
I think I am being very lazy. I need to work more. Tick tick tick, that is the sound of
my life running out.
German: I wrote 20 sentences using zu+infinitive (not part of classwork). Used Hugo for
this + some online resources. Eg.,
http://yourdailygerman.wordpress.com/20 ... e-of-zu-an d-um-zu -
http://yourdailygerman.wordpress.com/20 ... e-of-zu-an d-um-zu
Will ask the Lehrerin to correct it. I also started back on Lingq schritt für schritt
lessons. Covered chapters 3 & 4 of the course, Essentially this is a reader with easily
accessible google translate dictionary. Almost like Patrick's method
Also got the following German reader from the lib:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-beginners-bilingual-spea kers-English/dp/1452869839 -
http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-beginn ers-bilingual-speakers-
English/dp/1452869839
Covered first two chapters.
I am now at a stage where I should start ramping up my input, as Patrick has been
suggesting for a while. The LingQ lessons + the reader should serve that purpose for
the next two months.
I was doing some "fill in the blanks" + "kreutzen Sie an" type exercises, and I found
myself scanning the sentences and grasping the meaning, rather than pausing after every
word. That was cool.
Also bought the PONS Großwörterbuch
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3125171695 -
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3125171695
Used for 6.5 Euro shipped. Did I need it? No. Did I want it? Hell yes!
It's in quite decent condition.
Gemuse on 02 June 2014
Good job on the level increase Troy! And don't beat yourself up because you are not yet at a certain level (how do you know, by the way?). I've found that a lot of times, because we all use different learning methods, while you are technically at one level you many have gained knowledge of a higher level in the process. So you may be at A2 now, but you probably picked up some B1 or B2 material along the way which will make it easier for you once you get to that level.
How are you doing with Hugo? Are you still using it? Did you finish it?
soclydeza85 on 02 June 2014
Thanks for the kind words pat.
I stopped Hugo, I did upto lesson 10.
Two reasons: First the German course I am taking takes up a lot of time (I have
mentioned about my 4hr vokab noting woes previously). Second, I felt I
needed more time to practice and digest (eg. the zu+infinitive construct, or the passive
voice).
Now that I have had some practice (I last did Hugo about a month back), I feel more
ready to progress, so I'm gonna do chapter 11, and then practice again for a while.
Gemuse on 02 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
Thanks for the kind words pat.
I stopped Hugo, I did upto lesson 10.
Two reasons: First the German course I am taking takes up a lot of time (I have
mentioned about my 4hr vokab noting woes on the weekend previously). Second, I felt I
needed more time to practice and digest (eg. the zu+infinitive construct, or the passive
voice).
Now that I have had some practice (I last did Hugo about a month back), I feel more
ready to progress, so I'm gonna do chapter 11, and then practice again for a while.
That's pretty much what I do with Hugo, I take it nice and slow. I just finished week 10 so I'll probably just review all chapters 10 and below for a week or 2, refresh on the vocab and then tackle week 11.
soclydeza85 on 02 June 2014
Hey Troy. I figure I'd let you know, I recently asked a native German whether it is "dass" or "daß" and you are correct that it is now written "dass". I'm not sure why, but Assimil uses daß and the copy I have is a more modern version.
soclydeza85 on 04 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
Hey Troy. I figure I'd let you know, I recently asked a native German whether it is "dass" or "daß" and you are correct that it is now written "dass". I'm not sure why, but Assimil uses daß and the copy I have is a more modern version.
It's spelt 'dass' because it's pronounced with a short 'a' sound.
If it was pronounced daaaass it would be spelt 'daß'.
In contrast 'Straße' has a long-a.
patrickwilken on 04 June 2014
Gemuse, is German the first L2 you're learning?
Edit:
also, I have always wondered the reason for your nickname choice
drygramul on 04 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
Hey Troy. I figure I'd let you know, I recently asked a native
German whether it is "dass" or "daß" and you are correct that it is now written "dass".
I'm not sure why, but Assimil uses daß and the copy I have is a more modern version.
Assimil German was written before the spelling reform, hence the old style "daß" use.
I think Hugo German was also written before the spelling reform, but it uses "dass".
I'll have to check if it has the "ß" letter at all.
Gemuse on 04 June 2014
drygramul wrote:
Gemuse, is German the first L2 you're learning?
Edit:
also, I have always wondered the reason for your nickname choice
Kind of. I was exposed to English as a kid, still had to learn it; but English was
neither here nor there -- it was not as alien as German, and it was not a native
tongue. A bit of Sanskrit was also taught in school, but it was very basic, and I did
not gain any skills (I was maybe A1.1 after 4 years of school).
Nickname choice: I picked it a while back, before I knew any German.
Gemuse on 04 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
Assimil German was written before the spelling reform, hence the old style "daß" use.
I think Hugo German was also written before the spelling reform, but it uses "dass".
I'll have to check if it has the "ß" letter at all.
The version I have (Assimil) says it was published in 2001. They probably just didn't update the content at that point.
soclydeza85 on 04 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
I think Hugo German was also written before the spelling reform, but it uses "dass".
I'll have to check if it has the "ß" letter at all.
But why wouldn't it have "ß"? It's a perfectly valid German letter that should be used for certain words.
patrickwilken on 04 June 2014
patrickwilken wrote:
But why wouldn't it have "ß"? It's a perfectly valid German letter that should be used for certain words.
I just checked. Hugo uses "dass" but it also uses the ß on selected words.
soclydeza85 on 05 June 2014
Do you know roughly how many hours you've put in to get to the level that you're at? I'm always curious to see
whether DW is correct in saying it takes about 400 hours to get to a low B1.
EnglishEagle on 05 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:
But why wouldn't it have "ß"? It's a perfectly valid German letter that should be used for certain words.
I just checked. Hugo uses "dass" but it also uses the ß on selected words.
Yes. The ß is used on words with long vocals (e.g., Fuß, Straße etc). It's not really optional. It would be like writing "die Kuhe" rather than "die Kühe". One is correct and the other not.
Now you could write "die Kuehe" if your keyboard doesn't allow for an u-umlaut, and in the same way if you keyboard doesn't have ß you could write 'ss', but the correct spelling is 'Straße' not 'Strasse' and "dass" not "daß"
The ß is actually quite helpful as it tells you how to pronounce the word. If you pronounce "dass" and "daß" the same way you aren't doing it right.
patrickwilken on 05 June 2014
patrickwilken wrote:
if your keyboard doesn't allow for an u-umlaut, and in the same way if you keyboard doesn't have ß
(If you are running Windows)
Ä = (hold) alt + 0196
Ö = alt + 0214
Ü = alt + 0220
ß = alt + 225
ä = alt + 132
ö = alt + 148
ü = alt + 129
If you are running Mac then the codes will be different but they exist, just google them.
soclydeza85 on 05 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
patrickwilken wrote:
if your keyboard doesn't allow for an u-umlaut, and in the same way if you keyboard doesn't have ß
(If you are running Windows)
Ä = (hold) alt + 0196
Ö = alt + 0214
Ü = alt + 0220
ß = alt + 225
ä = alt + 132
ö = alt + 148
ü = alt + 129
If you are running Mac then the codes will be different but they exist, just google them.
Thanks. I'm running Linux :p and I have all the codes needed.
patrickwilken on 05 June 2014
EnglishEagle wrote:
Do you know roughly how many hours you've put in to get to the
level that you're at? I'm always curious to see
whether DW is correct in saying it takes about 400 hours to get to a low B1.
I guess I have put in about 400h, but I'm still at A2.
But:
a) I seem to be mentally challenged.
b) DW levels are lower than the "true" levels. Eg., I got about 82% on their A2 test a
couple of months back, and I was not A2. A month after that test (during which I
continued my study), I gave the placement exam for the course I am taking, and I got
placed into the A2.2 class.
I need another 150h or so to get to low B1, and then maybe another 100h to get to high
B1.
Gemuse on 05 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
EnglishEagle wrote:
Do you know roughly how many hours you've put in to get to the
level that you're at? I'm always curious to see
whether DW is correct in saying it takes about 400 hours to get to a low B1.
I guess I have put in about 400h, but I'm still at A2.
But:
a) I seem to be mentally challenged.
b) DW levels are lower than the "true" levels. Eg., I got about 82% on their A2 test a
couple of months back, and I was not A2. A month after that test (during which I
continued my study), I gave the placement exam for the course I am taking, and I got
placed into the A2.2 class.
I need another 150h or so to get to low B1, and then maybe another 100h to get to high
B1.
I believe that by around late September I am hoping to be around a very low B1 and I probably would have put in
around 500 hours. Thanks for the reply by the way!
EnglishEagle on 05 June 2014
EnglishEagle wrote:
I believe that by around late September I am hoping to be around a very low B1 and I
probably would have put in
around 500 hours. Thanks for the reply by the way!
You're welcome!
Have you considered putting up a log here? There are a few of us who are on the same
level. I am considering starting a study group if there is interest so that we can learn
off each other.
Gemuse on 06 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
EnglishEagle wrote:
I believe that by around late September I am hoping to be around a very low B1 and I
probably would have put in
around 500 hours. Thanks for the reply by the way!
You're welcome!
Have you considered putting up a log here? There are a few of us who are on the same
level. I am considering starting a study group if there is interest so that we can learn
off each other.
After my exams end next week, I am thinking of putting up a log. Not only to keep a record for myself but also to
share my language learning experience with people as I've really enjoyed reading peoples logs.
EnglishEagle on 07 June 2014
This week I did not have reliable access to Toggl so I just studied without logging time.
German:
Did most of Hugo chapter 11. The quantifiers and identifiers section was ridiculous. So many rules, and so few examples. Who the hell can remember even half of the rules from the chapter???
The attached sentences part was better, but I need a lot of practice on this.
German reader: Chapters 3 - 9
The genitiv case is kicking my butt. But it gave me some good points to ponder and make my lack of knowledge clear. There were also sentences which had words I already knew, but which made use of the words in a manner which was surprising to me.
Gemuse on 09 June 2014
Last week I slacked off, did only the German class.
Today I am feeling down. My butt is getting kicked in the class. Mainly in vocabulary. And also in the speed in which many of the others can complete the exercises. I need lots of time, and when I am halfway done, these others have already finished the work. What irks me is that the others do not put in any extra time, many even skip classes, they just seem to retain learning better.
When I started just a few weeks ago, I was ahead, and now I'm behind. I'll go mope in a corner now.
Gemuse on 19 June 2014
Don't feel bad about the classes, the speed of exercises is such a minor and unimportant skill.
Yes, retaining the grammar or vocabulary easily is great and completing the exercises correctly and fast is a very good first step of the learning process. But after that, there comes a different world where you need to put those things in real use, in sentences, in contexts, in real conversations and your own emails and other texts, where you need to understand speech or articles noone has predigested for you. Real world where you need to apply all you have learnt, not just the content of the unit from the last week's class. And that is where most shiny bright look-how-fast-I-finish-the-exercise people fail terribly, unless they put in extra hours and extra activities.
Other than that, it means very little in the long run because of the memory. Yes, they may have much better short term memory, especially if they are significantly younger and you older (oh, how can I only say that without sounding offensive? sorry if it looks bad, especially as I have no clue concerning your age). But you need the long term memories in your brain. And long term memories take time, repetition, many encounters with the item in question. If you put in significantly more time and efforts, than it is very likely the comparison will prove you the winner a few months or a year after the last class. There are so many people who had high grades at school exactly because of the exercise completing skill and they were lead formally to a B1 level. A few years later, so many are at the edge of not being able to buy a cup of tea.
You know, I was always one of those "fast learners" in classes as a child and teenager. I would be a "fast learner" now if I joined a class. I might be a bit of a specific case since I had to self-study a language for the first time when I was 9 and I was better than the typical exercise fillers in many aspects due to low levels of shyness in class and high IQ but still those two arcticles above are totally about me as well. Everything changed when I began to put in extra time, to do larger scale of activities. When I became more like You (even though I have a lot to catch up and to admire about you, such as constant work you make time for no matter what and great "not giving up" attitude, the way you bite in your chosen resource and don't let go until you're finished with the thing. I believe all that will lead you far.).
So, please don't let them make you feel down
Cavesa on 19 June 2014
Thanks for the encouraging words Tereza.
Especially as you are one of these fast learners and memorizers I am so envious of.
You could have chosen to make fun of me for being slow, you chose instead to encourage.
Gemuse on 19 June 2014
I balance being a fast learner with lack of time and perseverance
If I were as hardworking as you are, that would be a log worth reading
Cavesa on 19 June 2014
I'm not a hardworker!
I'm über lazy. Standard lazy people look at me and say "dude!".
I'm sure you work much more than me (taking all work into account, not just language learning).
Gemuse on 20 June 2014
It doesn't have to be a question of hard work or speed if you enjoy what you are doing.
I watch TV shows I like and learn German.
I read books I like and learn German.
I talk to friends whom I I like and learn German.
Classes make me think of exams, grades and comparison to other students. It doesn't have to be like that. I think you've probably learnt enough grammar for now. Why don't you find a TV show you like and watch it and see how much you can understand? Or pick a book that you wouldn't mind reading? Or just go out to a bar and practice with some random strangers?
patrickwilken on 20 June 2014
I got some German comics for kids, still can not understand them. Tons of missing vocab.
Speaking: I dont think it would be fair to subject people to my German outside of a class setting till I am at least B1.
Just gotta swallow this pain till I am B1.
This week I did some catching up on class backlog (noting down vocab etc).
Time logged: 15h 25 min (at the expense of other activities I should have been doing).
On the plus side, the vocab I need to note down for the Kursebuch has been going down. I am also noting that there are tons of "small" words which keep getting repeated. Like sonst, nun, statt, außerdem, eigene, sogar, ziemlich, sicher, mindestens, gleich, dazu, noch, eben, los.
I have to find a way to get these flavor words into my active vocabulary.
Gemuse on 23 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
Speaking: I dont think it would be fair to subject people to my German outside of a class setting till I am at least B1.
You should definitely talk to people outside of class! (I'm assuming you're living in Germany since it says so under your name) You have an opportunity to do something that many language learners don't have: being able to walk right outside and practice the language you are learning with natives. I pay money just to simulate that experience for just an hour a week.
I'm in week 11 of Hugo and I know what you mean now: a lot is covered without many examples to practice with. I see it more as an introduction to the topic; the examples/practice will come in future exposure to the language now that you are conscious of it.
I hope all is well, and don't call yourself lazy! Putting in effort to learn a language, no matter how much, is not something lazy people do.
soclydeza85 on 23 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
I got some German comics for kids, still can not understand them. Tons of missing vocab.
Speaking: I dont think it would be fair to subject people to my German outside of a class setting till I am at least B1.
When you read native materials you will suddenly see how little vocabulary you really have. I was shocked by the first book I read, 200 pages, which took me a month to read. At the same time there is something very satisfying when you finally complete reading something that a native would read too; whether this be a larger book or a comic.
I would recommend trying to start reading with a cheap Kindle. Then you'll have a pop-up dictionary and it's much easier to make sense of things. I don't think it will make much difference if you wait until B1. The amount of vocabulary you are going to learn is small in comparison to how much you will know.
I personally didn't worry about talking until I was at a higher level, but of course there are others that have a different opinion, but I was doing a lot of native materials from the very beginning.
patrickwilken on 23 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
Gemuse wrote:
Speaking: I dont think it would be fair to subject people to my German outside of a class setting till I am at least B1.
You should definitely talk to people outside of class! (I'm assuming you're living in Germany since it says so under your name) You have an opportunity to do something that many language learners don't have: being able to walk right outside and practice the language you are learning with natives. I pay money just to simulate that experience for just an hour a week.
And that makes it worthwhile for the other person.
I still get some practice in class.
I am fine, thanks for asking. I am following your blog, keep the progress up!!!
Hugo German is a bit crazy. In our class, we take 10% of a Hugo chapter equivalent, and spend a week on it.
I took a note of the students in the class. 35% have dropped it. As far as I can tell, they were all who had worked on German previously (longer than a year). The ones who have remained in the class are mostly the naturally talented ones, who have picked up German in a very short amount of time. There is one person who has worked on German for like 4 months, and is finding the current pace slow. And I am getting my behind kicked after having worked for 8 months.
Makes me wonder if I am being foolish devoting so much time to German. Perhaps I should just admit defeat and direct the time toward more fruitful ventures.
patrickwilken wrote:
When you read native materials you will suddenly see how little vocabulary you really have.
Thanks. Looking forward to getting even more discouraged.
I have a couple of dual language readers, will read them before I move onto native material.
Gemuse on 24 June 2014
You're not foolish!
You're just taking your time and it will pay off. The key is to keep going, unlike the 35% you mentioned.
How about ditching children's books and instead taking something you love in English, perhaps something you've read repeatedly? Fun will get you through the hardships of missing vocab, too advanced areas etc. And you'll have much easier time guessing things from context if you know it well. Or, if you want something simple for start, go to a library and borrow graded readers. Those will do the job until you feel ready for the real texts even though they are not that fun. I don't know why so many people think that books for children=easy books. They use their own specific vocab, they are often not that gramatically easy, unless the books are stupid, they tend not to be fun for many adults.
Cavesa on 24 June 2014
There's an old saying, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." In other words: don't look at where you are in the big picture, it's very easy to get discouraged that way. Instead, focus on where you are now. Progress little by little each day and before you know it you'll find you have already eaten half of the elephant (i.e., you're at a proficient level). One step at a time, man.
And that makes it worthwhile for the other person. I still get some practice in class.
It doesn't have to be a long-winded conversation. Just go down to the local store, talk to the cashier:
Guten Tag!
Heute ist ein schöner Tag, ja?
Habe ich das richtig? Verzeihung, ich lerne noch!
Also dann, aufwiedersehen!
Write it out beforehand and practice what you'd say if you have to. There's nothing more rewarding than using your newly acquired language skills with an actual native. It'll definitely give you inspiration, even if you screw up.
And don't compare yourself to others, focus on you and your own progress. It's not a race. I'd hate to see you give up after all of the effort you've put in. I'll bet you're much better at German than you think. Keep going!
soclydeza85 on 24 June 2014
I think you’re on the right track. You ask lots of questions, not just to get the right answer, but because you want to know why German works the way it does. To me, that means you’re on your way to understanding the language, as opposed to just amassing information to regurgitate on tests. If you feel your progress is slow, I think it’s because you’re taking pains to thoroughly learn the material.
One thing that helps me is to seek out stuff in German that would interest me if it were in English. I don’t know about you, but I’m very visual, so movies in German with German subtitles were it for me, and not just German movies. Germans overdub anything that moves, American, French, British, Skandinavian, you name it. A movie you’ve already seen in your native language that’s been dubbed into German can be good, if it’s one you like.
Just out of curiosity, what is your native language?
AlOlaf on 24 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
I took a note of the students in the class. 35% have dropped it. As far as I can tell, they were all who had worked on German previously (longer than a year). The ones who have remained in the class are mostly the naturally talented ones, who have picked up German in a very short amount of time. There is one person who has worked on German for like 4 months, and is finding the current pace slow. And I am getting my behind kicked after having worked for 8 months.
In my experience in classes the only people who did well were the ones who had-time/were-motivated-enough to do lots of homework after class, and perhaps had a leg up in other ways (e.g., having a partner that they would talk to out of hours).
I think talent or lack thereof is just an excuse people make.
To learn German you need to do 1500-3000 hours of study. That's a lot of work and until you've done that many hours you have no right to say you don't have talent.
Gemuse wrote:
Makes me wonder if I am being foolish devoting so much time to German. Perhaps I should just admit defeat and direct the time toward more fruitful ventures.
No, but I think you may be foolish to continue with classes much longer.
patrickwilken on 24 June 2014
I don't agree patrick. I've seen it more than enough times that talent does have a lot to do with it. Let me explain:
The harder a class and subject is, the more it is about the work and the less help can you expect from your talents, iq, short term memory and so on. Therefore biochemistry or pathology classes at medschool are like 5% about talent and 95% about hard work (and that's why I am so bad at school). Very intensive and demanding language classes, perhaps like the FSI, may be close to that side of the scale as well.
Usual language classes are nowhere near that. They are meant not to drive away too many learners/customers, the pace isn't too fast, they are meant for usual people to keep up with, not just those with university education. Therefore they are much easier. Most people going to usual evening classes do very little homework or extra activities in the meantime. Really. They pay for classes and expect to be taught, not to learn. Therefore their success/lack of it is more like 85% talent/iq/short term memory and 15% the extra work.
But I totally agree that Gemuse might profit from reconsidering the classes from the next semester on. Perhaps a private tutor and 1 on 1 classes may be a much better option. Or learning on his own and visiting a conversation club or something like that regularily.
Cavesa on 24 June 2014
Cavesa wrote:
I don't agree patrick. I've seen it more than enough times that talent does have a lot to do with it.
I was really referring to lack-of-talent being used as an excuse to not be able to learn a language, rather than relative performance in class. I think of it as equivalent to someone saying they are fat because of genetics. Yes, perhaps there is some truth to that, but you should first stop drinking soft drinks and pizza before you make the claim. In the case of language learning you need to do a lot of work before you can claim you are not able to learn a language.
While I agree about the ease of classes, I was badgered a lot by other students when I was in language classes because I understood the reading. But I only knew the reading because I had learnt the vocabulary with Anki before class. It was nothing magical and certainly nothing to do with talent - though the other students certainly pretended to themselves that I was somehow more talented presumably to make themselves feel better for not keeping up with class.
I knew two people who did well in my Goethe class years ago: one was basically doing lots of homework at home (the rest of us had to work during the day); and the second was Swedish and got a huge discount in learning the language.
It's not to say that talent may/may-not play a role, but I think people throw this around as an excuse way too much.
Gemuse: I didn't meant to sound hard, I just think you shouldn't sort of give up at this point. I do personally think that you (like many many many other students) are focusing too much on grammar and formal lessons. I think people do this because schools and other language learners encourage this, and also because they get a sense of immediate reward when they finish a lesson and feel they have learnt a particular grammar point. But the problem is that you can learn grammar (or go to school) for the rest of your life and never learn the language. I was absolutely amazed last year how well I could read Harry Potter without being so strong in grammar. Today what stops me 99% of the time understanding a sentence is my vocabulary, not my grammar.
If you want to give up that's obviously your choice, but it's ridiculous to say it's a was a waste of time to try learning German when you live in the country.
patrickwilken on 24 June 2014
One of the reasons for my doubts is that I will most likely be leaving Germany in a little more than a year. At the same time, I recognize that this is a golden opportunity to be in TL country, for a major language, that not many people get.
Tereza, graded readers are next on my agenda.
Regarding the class students, I have found there to be 4 groups.
Group 1: Talented and want to learn the language.
Do not put a lot of effort outside of class, but are very engaged in class.
Often skip classes.
Group 2: Talented, but not very motivated to learn the language.
Do not put a lot of effort inside or outside class.
Group 3. Not talented, but want to learn the language.
Put a lot of effort inside and outside class. Rarely skip classes.
Group 4. Not talented, but want to learn the language.
Put a lot of effort inside class, but not outside. Rarely skip classes.
Group 4 students are the worst performers. The discrepancy between them and the rest becomes evident very soon, and after a few weeks they cannot do the in class group exercises. Since they want to learn the language, this not being able to participate in class is very hard on them. They give up first.
Group 2: The next worst. In A1 they seem to be almost on par with the best. But since they are not that engaged in class, they start falling behind in A2. Once they have fallen behind sufficiently, they give up as there is no motivation to catch up.
Group 3: They hang on. Their hard work enables them to pass from class to class, sometimes repeating classes.
Group 4: The top of the class. Often skip levels. Master lessons seemingly effortlessly.
I had originally planned to be at least B2 before I left Germany, but slowly I am having to accept that I am too slow and will only be B1. Just dont like being one of the slow kids izzall.
PS: Thanks for taking the time to post the replies everyone!
Gemuse on 24 June 2014
Gemuse wrote:
One of the reasons for my doubts is that I will most likely be leaving Germany in a little more than a year. At the same time, I recognize that this is a golden opportunity to be in TL country, for a major language, that not many people get.
OK. That makes sense. I got to a very solid B2 in 24 months in Germany, so you should be able to get to a much higher level in German if you want to in the remaining time if you want.
Sorry to sound like a cracked record, but to me by far the biggest advantage being here is the fact we are surrounded by German. You can go to German classes in the US or anywhere else in the World. You can't engage in German conversation with random strangers down at the local Kneipe or go to the cinema and see a movie in German very easily. If you haven't already done it you should join your local library - for 10 Euros/year I have access to the whole library system in Berlin, with DVDS, books, ebooks, audio books, graphic novels, etc etc. And of course you should join your local video shop as well.
But hey, if you feel the need to stop and just enjoy being here, I certainly understand.
If it makes you feel any better I have a colleague who's parents are Syrian, who was born here in Germany, and grew up speaking Arabic, English, French, and German. She says that she still finds German the hardest at least in the sense she has to think about certain grammar rules - but that hasn't stopped her speaking it her whole life like a native.
patrickwilken on 24 June 2014
soclydeza85 wrote:
There's an old saying, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."
Why would you eat an elephant?
They are so cute!
Patrick: I dont think my town has a local library - it's not a big town unfotunately.
Gemuse on 24 June 2014
Hey, no offense meant toward the elephants!
Cavesa wrote:
I totally agree that Gemuse might profit from reconsidering the classes from the next semester on. Perhaps a private tutor and 1 on 1 classes may be a much better option. Or learning on his own and visiting a conversation club or something like that regularily.
I'll second (or rather, third) this notion. I'm not sure if language classes in Europe are similar to those in the US (I'm guessing they are, but I could be wrong) but they tend to focus too heavily on grammar and analytical aspects and not so much conversational/usefulness. I've known people who have come through semesters upon semesters of a language and when they get out they have absolutely no conversational fluidity except for "textbook" conversational dialogues. That's been my own experience as well. I think you'd benefit much better from doing a combination of self study and a 1 on 1 tutor so the focus is all on you, your strengths and weaknesses and speaking. Those are just my 2 cents. Now get out there and start talking to natives!
soclydeza85 on 25 June 2014
