A colourful mix - current: Korean revival and some Portuguese

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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:05 pm

Thai So far I put off writing about Thai. As this is a brand new language for me, there is a lot to say and I wasn't sure where to start. It's quite cool how fast a language can take me from "not particularly interested" to "so different and exciting, I wonder how this all works".

I started out studying the script through the free resource http://thai.hawaii.edu/thai101/welcome/welcome.htm and have recently completed lesson 15. The script certainly is beautiful, but it already feels more complex than any other script I have ever studied. Korean is actually really logical and never felt difficult. Hebrew and Persian looked more intimidating than they were. The only real challenge is that not all vowels are written - but I'm fairly good at guessing :) But with Thai... there seem to be a lot of important rules one needs to internalise. One thing which surprised me is the ease with which I can memorise the consonant shapes. I read on Benny Lewis' site how he associated each character with an English concept and tried it out (with German concepts). For example, the image ย reminds me of a Jesuit, bowing his head and praying before an altar. In German, Jesuit is pronounced with a -ye- sound. In Thai, each consonant is associated to a word. For example, ป is memorised with the word ปลา -plaa-, which means fish. To remember this connection, I assigned the German word "Plakat" (poster, billboard) to ป. I'm imagining someone standing in front of a billboard at the bus stop. So I have integrated the Thai word -plaa- into my mnemonic. When I remember that the billboard shows the image of a fish, I have a lot of information about this letter covered almost effortlessly. It was fun to think up these mnemonics and even though Thai just looked like squiggles to me at the beginning, it wasn't very difficult to find associations for each consonant.

Most of the script's complexity seems to be caused by the tones. I'm still getting my head around this. Unlike with Chinese (my everlasting want-to-study language), one can infer the correct tone from how the syllable is written. As far as I understood this is always the case. But I still have to learn most of the rules about what signifies which tone. One thing I wonder about is whether tones change in Thai depending on the tone of the preceding or following syllable, as this does happen in Mandarin Chinese. I'll have to ask Bakunin and Hanuman about this.

Apart from learning the alphabet, I was a bit lost on how to study Thai, as I had no materials. Hanuman gave me some tips on where to start as a beginner, and I ordered the first 5 lessons from http://www.pickup-thai.com/pickupthaipodcast.html. I'm also thinking about buying "Cracking Thai Fundamentals" as an introduction to how Thai works, and maybe "Thai for Beginners" by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. It sounds like this might introduce lots of vocabulary too quickly for my taste, but then again it's generally a good idea to have a traditional textbook.

I have to say it's great to have a new exciting language to dive into. It feels a bit like going on a first date - maybe even a blind date in this case, as Thai came up so unexpectedly :)

Korean I have pretty much quit my reading regimen now that the Super Language Challenge is over. It feels refreshing, although I have already signed up for a new challenge! I recorded my first "interview" for the output challenge shortly after signing up. The topic was about my job and I have to say it was really difficult. Part of that was probably the format - it generally seems to be more difficult to have monologues than conversations. Recording doesn't help either. In the beginning I got horribly self-concscious when I couldn't find something to say or had forgotten a word I needed to express my thoughts. Others have said that the Super Language Challenge may have improved their passive knowledge, but their active skills atrophied somewhat. I also think reading literature has not been that helpful for keeping more basic words in my active vocabulary. I learned a lot more words, but not many of those are useful for speaking... I met my tandem on Thursday and luckily our Korean conversation didn't feel as bad as the recording. It's easy to get discouraged when you record your voice while trying to sound sophisticated in a foreign language ;) But in the end it can only help. I would like to be able to have monologues about varied topics and I would also like to speak well in stressful situations.

Persian I have been focusing on "Sprachkurs Persisch", the very compact Persian course in German, which I had bought when I embarked on learning Persian in 2011. The book is aimed at university students majoring in Persian/Middle Eastern Studies, and is supposed to be worked through in 4 semesters, so it moves at a fast pace. I had never gotten past lesson 2, focusing on other, easier resources instead. I repeated the old material and am now on lesson 3. It's going rather well (not difficult, but not boring either) and I think I can study up to lesson 5 or 6 at my current level without too much hardship. I'm happy using this source, as it explains grammar very well and also provides a lot of useful exercises in each lesson.
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Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories

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Bakunin
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby Bakunin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:44 pm

Apart from the abugida character of the script, which is easy to get used to, most of the complexity is due to the three consonant classes which have different tone rules. One and the same tone mark can mean different tones depending on which consonant class it is applied to and whether the syllable is long, short, dead or alive. Any textbook will cover this in detail. There are some special rules for consonant clusters, they sometimes inherit the tone from the first character, for instance ขนม [ขะ-หนม] = dessert (and not [ขะ-นม]).

Another difficulty may be that sometimes it’s not clear how to segment the word into syllables, for instance the word for fruit, ผลไม้ [ผน-ละ-ม้าย] could also be analyzed as [ผน-ม้าย].

Later, you’ll encounter a few special character combinations which just have to be learned. For instance รร is often (always?) pronounced as อัน, or with ม in รรม as อัม, for instance ธรรมดา [ทัม-มะ-ดา] = normal. There are more.

Other than that, you can almost always infer the tone and the length of the syllable from the spelling; the tone of a syllable does not depend on the tone of the preceding one. There are a few notable exceptions, among them:
เขา = he, she, pronounced [เค้า], not [เขา]; เขา with the standard pronunciation means hill/mountain, or horn of an animal
เก้า = 9, pronounced [ก้าว], not [เก้า]
ได้ (function word), depending on context has to be [ได้] or [ด้าย]
หนังสือ = book, pronounced [นั้ง-สือ] not [หนัง-สือ]

Longdo often gives you the pronunciation if it is non-standard, but the best dictionary for beginners is Paiboon’s Talking Thai dictionary for mobile devices. It gives you the pronunciation and also has voice recording. Here’s a screenshot:

IMG_0162 2.PNG


That's of course not an exhaustive list of things to consider, but I hope I've answered a few of your questions :)
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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:01 pm

Just a quick post to share my little output successes for today.

Persian I actually had a bit of a smalltalk phone conversation in Persian with my partner today. This came rather unexpectedly, as we usually just exchange a couple of greetings in Persian and then switch to German, but this time we talked a bit about our day and about what we did (work, cooking, cleaning, washing dishes, taking a shower :D) and I said in Persian that I was happy that we are able to talk in Persian. This felt really good! I am now using my commute for Persian study and it seems to work very well for activating and improving my language skills.

Korean I did my second self-interview today. This time I talked for half an hour (again with some pauses and looking up words) about relationships. I talked about how we met and asked myself stuff like "which character traits of your partner do you like?" and "what do you think is important in a relationship?". I'm happy to report that it went far better than the first interview. I've topic is easier, I think, but I could practically feel how my brain was retrieving grammar patterns and expression which had been lying dormant for too long. At the end of the interview my grammar usage got a bit more varied than at the beginning and complex sentences cam to mind easier. I have to make a real effort to use better grammar, but I'm glad it works to some extent! It looks like I really forgot a lot of active language since my last stay in Korea and the Output Challenge is probably a godsend for making me aware of this and for making me take steps to correct this.
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Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories

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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby Elenia » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:42 pm

druckfehler wrote:Persian I actually had a bit of a smalltalk phone conversation in Persian with my partner today. This came rather unexpectedly, as we usually just exchange a couple of greetings in Persian and then switch to German, but this time we talked a bit about our day and about what we did (work, cooking, cleaning, washing dishes, taking a shower :D) and I said in Persian that I was happy that we are able to talk in Persian. This felt really good! I am now using my commute for Persian study and it seems to work very well for activating and improving my language skills.


It's such a rewarding feeling, isn't it? Even better than a conversation with a stranger or friend in a TL is, I think. I'm glad you got to have a longer conversation than usual, and hope things will continue upwards. I started talking with my partner in his mother tongue sometime last year, but I can still take a step back, look at a conversation we've had and get that rush again.

Also, great on the Korean output front. My output is lousy, so I'm jealous.
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Hanuman
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby Hanuman » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:35 am

How is the Thai studying going druckfehler? I was wondering whether you had looked at Cracking Thai Fundamentals as I was reading through it the other day and Stu's way of learning the tones in Thai might be the best approach I've seen so far. He utilizes mnemonics and stories heavily to teach different aspects of the rules and what he calls 'glyphs' to create memory pegs for pronunciation and placing your tongue in the right position in your mouth. I noticed that you also like to use a similar technique for learning Thai's abugida system and thought it would suit your style.

I've actually been using the Pick-up Thai spicy red podcasts lately as well. Love the effort that goes into making these and the prolonged dialogues are great!
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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:28 pm

Thai I think I'm giving up on Thai for now. Thanks so much for your help up to this point, Hanuman and Bakunin! I have only gotten a tiny glimpse into the language, but I have to say it was a fascinating excursion which I really enjoyed. I would like to learn more about Thai in the future, but at the moment I don't have an immediate use for it (I had started Thai because of a job offering - but they have since decided to split this into two offers, one for Thai and one for Korean). I probably wouldn't be able to motivate myself only out of curiosity, because I want to start studying another language much more at the moment...

Chinese is the language in question. I have been planning to study Chinese for quite some time - at least since 2013. Back then it didn't even get off the ground. I think I was still far too focused on Korean to study another East Asian language on the side. By now I have progressed a lot in Korean and I think it won't be too difficult to study Chinese through Korean. It's the logical choice. I had already bought several textbooks in Korea last year and am excited to learn more about Korean while also studying a new language! I'm probably sort of a false beginner. I don't know how many hours of TV I watched in Chinese, but probably a few hundred. Right now I'm watching the Taiwanese series 愛上哥們 (Ài Shàng Gēmen / Bromance). I'm surprised how many basic words and phrases I can already recognise. There are also many words which sound distantly familiar to Korean. After thinking about learning Chinese again and again, I think the best idea is to just start studying already. I'll be using 중국어 마스터 ( I have 1-3) by 다락원 (the publisher of the great Korean Grammar in Use series):https://www.darakwon.co.kr/books/detailProduct.asp?p_id=2634&pc_id_2=10&pc_id_3=64 I am also planning to get the ebook-version of http://taeglich.chinesisch-trainer.de to learn the characters. It's a bit like Heisig, introducing the characters in an easier to study logical order.

Persian I'm continuing to build my new deck of audio sentence cards. I'm halfway through lesson 5 of Sprachkurs Persisch and the course is no longer a breeze. I think I will need to take a break soon to catch up on vocabulary. By the way, how cool is it that واقعیت (vâqe'iyat) and the German Wahrheit are so very similar? In basic vocabulary (family members etc.) I do not find similarly so surprising, but such an abstract noun? Astonishing. Even the -iat / -heit endings for making nouns are very similar. It's these little suprises which make language learning so exciting for me.
0 x
Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories

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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Thai - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:10 pm

Chinese I'm still preparing my study materials for Chinese. Today I downloaded Pleco and bought the Basic Bundle, because I mostly wanted the app for stroke order diagrams and thought the rest of the add-ons wouldn't hurt either. I must say Pleco looks wonderful! So many useful features and my impression is that it's fairly easy to navigate, too. I'm so glad I remembered reading about this app. I think it will make studying much easier. I have also now downloaded the pdf-versions of Täglich Chinesisch. The pdf is useful for me because I don't have a regular internet connection at home and no internet on my cellphone either. When I want to spend time online I use an internet stick, but that is only for occasional use. I'm a great fan of the internet when it comes to language learning, but my self-imposed restrictions mean I need to organise my materials in a way that I can access all or most of them offline.
So the plan is to study characters with Täglich Chinesisch and Pleco. As I mentioned before, Täglich Chinesisch can probably sort of be compared to Heisig and introduces (traditional) Chinese characters in a useful and logical order. I think once I have a couple of characters down I will also study the connections with Hanja. I still have the Korean Reader for Chinese Characters lying around more or less unused. I tried to study with this before, but gave up early. So this time I want to use a different aproach to the characters.

I also reviewed some of what I had read about Chinese before. I'll copy some useful articles I collected about Pinyin pronunciation from my old HTLAL log. I wrote this back in 2013 - I've been wanting to learn Mandarin for such a long time already! :)

"I've long been planning to read up on and practice pronunciation. I started with Pinyin - here is my guide of useful websites for that:

Sinosplice: Pronunciation of Mandarin Chinese - this is the site Ari recommended for learning pronunciation. It clears up common misconceptions about the consonants <j>, <q>, <x>, <zh>, <ch>, <sh>, <r> with very good phonetic explanations and some graphics.

Hacking Chinese: A Guide to Pinyin Traps and Pitfalls - this site also focuses on common mistakes learners of Mandarin make. I found it very helpful for reading about the different vowel sounds. It also mentions that the distinction between <d> and <t>, <b> and <p>, <g> and <k> etc. is different than in English (but the same as in Korean).

Mandarin Chinese Phonetics - gives a good and more complete overview of all the consonant and vowel sounds.

Quick Mandarin: Pinyin Table - a table of all the possible syllables in Standard Mandarin Chinese. I guess there are more sites like this one out there.

I think learning about pronunciation is one of the most important things when beginning a new language (and also later on, to check whether you're pronouncing it correctly). I recommend going through these articles for anyone who still has questions about specific sounds. Taken together they seem fairly comprehensive."
1 x
Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories

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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Chinese, (Thai) - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:50 am

Chinese This week I started studying Hanzi. So far it's not as difficult as I thought. I do have some familiarity with the characters - meaning I have seen them before, but never really studied them. The "Täglich Chinesisch" pdf and Pleco are a great help. "Täglich Chinesisch" first introduces characters who share components and gives each a headword/meaning to memorise. It's really quite similar to Heisig. Right now I just study the stroke order + headword of the characters. If I already know the Pinyin syllable that goes with the character, I remember that as well, but it's not my focus. This way I can easily study around 10 characters per day - at least at the moment. After 3 days, I've added 34 Hanzi.

It seems easiest to tackle one aspect first and then add on more information later. When I thought about learning Chinese, I had often wondered how to approach the language. I thought I should probably learn Hanja first, because I already know the words and sounds of Korean, but I don't have a reasource which approaches Hanja in a logical manner. The "Korean Reader for Chinese Characters" from University of Hawaii Press introduces Hanja by frequency, but it's so much easier to approach characters by their shared components. So in the end I decided that I will study a few hundred characters first, then add Mandarin pronunciation by going through the textbook I bought in Korea and finally, look at the connections to Korean and Hanja.

Persian is mostly on hiatus this week.I decided to rotate Persian and Chinese, so I will focus on each every 2nd week. The only time I can guarantee for language study is my commute. Although it's just half an hour each way, I'm surprised how effectively I can study during this time. Because it's a daily ritual, the results are pretty good. There is still a lot of material which I have already studied but haven't added to my Anki sentence deck, so I worked on that for a while yesterday. I'm happy to report that I had more opportunities to speak Persian. My partner has recently been inviting some newly arrived refugees and for now Persian is the only language we can communicate in. It's very motivating to see that we can make more of a connection because I have some knowledge of their language.

Korean I haven't been making an effort to "study" Korean for about a year. And even before that I was focusing more on reading/listening than studying. Mostly I feel that I know Korean "well enough to get by" and also well enough to enjoy using it. So to really make myself study, I would need a challenging goal. Maybe I will attempt TOPIK again this October (level 6 is still outstanding). I have also wondered what it would take to be able to pass a test for certified translators - something like that would really push me to improve, that's for sure. For now, I've just been enjoying podcasts. I kind of rediscovered Yoo Inna as great entertainment while I do the dishes :) I'm also thinking about starting a new drama - maybe Descended from the Sun (anyone watching? opinions?) or Goodbye, Mr. Black, which starts on March 16, I think.
0 x
Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories

wnint
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Re: Korean, Persian, Chinese, (Thai) - a colorful mix

Postby wnint » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:14 pm

How are you using Korean Grammar In Use? Working your way through all of the books? 178 grammar points maybe? Do you have any other sources for advanced grammar?

I found this site a long time ago. Unfortunately inactive. http://pineapplegame.tumblr.com
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druckfehler
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Re: Korean, Persian, Chinese, (Thai) - a colorful mix

Postby druckfehler » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:58 am

wnint wrote:How are you using Korean Grammar In Use? Working your way through all of the books? 178 grammar points maybe? Do you have any other sources for advanced grammar?


Unfortunately I'm not really using Korean Grammar In Use at the moment. It's on my list of "what I should definitely do to improve my Korean". I plan to study the 178 grammar points (all patterns introduced in the Intermediate and Advanced books) eventually. I know many of them, but I haven't done much formal grammar study since beginner's classes, so this is an area I really need to improve. But right now Korean is on a bit of a hiatus. I'm finally allowing myself to focus more on Persian and to start Chinese, which I've been wanting to study for a long time. I'm not sure what my plans for continuing Korean are yet... I've gotten fairly complacent about my current level, but then again it would be wonderful to one day feel similar about Korean as I feel about English... Seems utopian, though. At least my Chinese studies will aid my knowledge of Korean a bit, I think. Once I learn more characters, I'll make sure I know them both as Hanzi and as Hanja.

wnint wrote:I found this site a long time ago. Unfortunately inactive. http://pineapplegame.tumblr.com


I remember seeing that site, but haven't studied with it. I think it's a good source though. It's not easy to find resources for advanced grammar... There used to be a Korean Grammar Database which I liked to use, but now the domain is up for sale... Another advanced source has unfortunately also disappeared. I think TTMIK introduces some advanced grammar patterns, but it's not their focus. http://koreanchamp.com/ also has some advanced lessons which might be useful, but doesn't focus on grammar...
0 x
Korean Grammar in Use:
: 0 / 93 Intermediate
: 0 / 85 Advanced
Portuguese Audiobooks:
: 2 / 24 Minha História by Michele Obama
Duolingo Portuguese:
: 72 / 125 Level 2
: 66 / 100 Stories


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