Reading Spanish

[reineke]

Either you come across as insulting because you're not a native speaker, and don't understand the language well, or because you mean to. I don't care either way.

Malice drinks one half of its own poison.

[nuncapense]

I was angry with my friend;
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

[nuncapense]

anyway, didn't mean to insult you either. I must have misunderstood what you wrote.

Observations and better ways to go about the whole process for myself for next time:

Despite all the time I spent listening before reading, my accent is still really bad. I think I am behind the times when it comes to the current internet language methods. The last time I was reading HTLAL, everybody seemed to be talking about L-R and AJATT. And there was an idea floating around, not sure if it was a prominent one or not, that listening before reading, as well as having a long silent period, would produce a better accent. I fooled myself into thinking that I had developed a better accent than most because of all the listening I'd done. But the fact is that when I walk into a pharmacy and ask for aspirin, people have a hard time understanding me. They often have to ask a colleague, and it's slightly embarrassing for me when other customers intervene on my behalf in English. I spent my whole Spanish lesson today working on vowel sounds, with a little work on the rolled Rs towards the end. It turns out I've been saying the "I" vowels in Aspirinas wrong, as well as putting the stress on the wrong syllable. The shorter the interaction, the more difficult it can be for me.

A better approach for Spanish at least for me would have been to seriously study the sounds of the language and learn how to make them with the help of videos and a good teacher. Then I could have started reading and listening, maybe putting more emphasis on reading since I like doing it and I think I learn more vocabulary from is as L2 forever said. It might be that the reading part of my brain is more trained from English reading than the auditory part of my brain. I don't have a "good ear" for languages, and small differences in sounds are harder for me to pick up on than for others (my experience in classrooms with other students). Maybe one useful thing that listening a lot did for me was that I think I was able to understand native speakers earlier than I might have been able to. If I had really wanted to work on that aspect of it, I should have spent more time listening to the radio or watching things that weren't dubbed.

One last note on TV vs books. TV shows have short bits of dialogue. But I'm very unlikely to use what they say in real life. I would sound ridiculous if I tried to talk like they do on Soy tu fan (a lot of Chilango (Mexico City) slang) or if I tried to talk like the Spain Spanish dubbed That 70s Show. As a learner I find that I need to speak in a much more neutral rather than natural way. Books help more with that, I think, since they show the grammar of complete sentences. But who knows -- I have heard of some people who learned only from Telenovellas and could apparently pass as Mexicans. Maybe in the end, doing what you like doing is more important (I've heard this said elsewhere) than doing what is the supposed best possible method. Because at least for me I'm finding that the learning process is extremely long -- or feels extremely long -- and for me it's probably just more important to keep doing it and doing it, no matter what.

[arthaey]

I've had them, but Mexicans often don't show up for things, especially something as informal as a language exchange, or show up an hour late, not thinking it's a problem. It gets annoying.

Oh man, is that ever the truth! When I was in Mexico City last year, I once showed up to a wine-tasting meetup group that 20 people had RSVP'd for... and not a single one of them actually showed up. I even followed up with the group online afterward; I hadn't gotten the location, date, or time wrong, they just all independently didn't show up. That was pretty eye-opening, in terms of different cultural norms.

After that, I learned to text friends the morning of a planned event to confirm it was still going to happen... and then again an hour before the event, and then again at the time of the event. At least that way, I knew when I should go off and do something else because the plans fell through.

¡Buena suerte con las frustraciones de México! Pero al final, creo que vale la pena.

[nuncapense]

That's a really striking experience. I'm slowly getting used to it, but I still find it confusing, and I've now been in Mexico for a year and a half.

I found a language exchange group that meets once a week. 1 hour English; 1 hour Spanish. People don't show up every week, but it doesn't really matter, since chances are someone will come.

I've started a new job, and haven't had any time for reading Spanish. I'm lucky if I get 2-3 hours of conversation a week, with maybe half an hour of watching TV. I have problems talking (grammar, mainly), but at this point a conversation partner usually recognizes that I can understand what they're saying--usually I can pick up word I don't know like "cerro" through context. Once in a while I'll forget a really basic word, like the word for "box." I often start explaining something, telling another story, but get lost in my explanation, and forget to relate what I'm saying back to what they were saying.

[nuncapense]

I haven't been doing a lot of reading for whatever reasons. Now when I go back to it I've already lost a lot of the reading fluency that I had. I've been listening to some Spanish...watching TV shows...going to [I hate elipses...dont know why Im using them] intercambios. I've doing three hours of talking minimum per week, not including regular transactions and whatever other conversations happen from living in Mexico.

Feeling pretty discouraged. I feel like I've made some progress with my active vocabulary. I can watch dubbed stuff on Netflix completely forgetting it's in Spanish. I have moments where it feels as easy as English to me when listening...of course I'm missing stuff and misunderstandint higns.

But my speaking! What a desmadre...asco. It's terrible. I have no grasp of the simplest grammar forms. I think if I were to really study grammar for foreigners and memorize stuff I could actually speak.

Any suggestions on grammar to memorize? I honestly don't even know the terms in English to look for. I learned there is something called subjunctive today. Reflexive stuff I say all wrong and apparently everythign I say sounds like I'm saying "fuck me" or "would you like me to insert myself to you?"

[nuncapense]

finally after weeks and weeks and weeks gave up reading Harry Potter 5. Switched to Savage Detectives, which is more interesting. am trying to get back into reading spanish. i think it is more helpful than talking to people or watching tv or listening to audiobooks or watching movies. for example native english speakers who read have a better vocabulary than those who don't. people who don't read are also stupid, ignorant, and plain.

[reineke]

Despite all the time I spent listening before reading, my accent is still really bad. I think I am behind the times when it comes to the current internet language methods. The last time I was reading HTLAL, everybody seemed to be talking about L-R and AJATT. And there was an idea floating around, not sure if it was a prominent one or not, that listening before reading, as well as having a long silent period, would produce a better accent. I fooled myself into thinking that I had developed a better accent than most because of all the listening I'd done. But the fact is that when I walk into a pharmacy and ask for aspirin, people have a hard time understanding me. They often have to ask a colleague, and it's slightly embarrassing for me when other customers intervene on my behalf in English. I spent my whole Spanish lesson today working on vowel sounds, with a little work on the rolled Rs towards the end. It turns out I've been saying the "I" vowels in Aspirinas wrong, as well as putting the stress on the wrong syllable. The shorter the interaction, the more difficult it can be for me.

One last note on TV vs books. TV shows have short bits of dialogue. But I'm very unlikely to use what they say in real life. I would sound ridiculous if I tried to talk like they do on Soy tu fan (a lot of Chilango (Mexico City) slang) or if I tried to talk like the Spain Spanish dubbed That 70s Show. As a learner I find that I need to speak in a much more neutral rather than natural way. Books help more with that, I think, since they show the grammar of complete sentences. But who knows -- I have heard of some people who learned only from Telenovellas and could apparently pass as Mexicans.

I have spent more time than just about anyone in listening-only mode back in the day when it was my only source of entertainment. No normal English speaking adult could pass himself as a native after six months of the "Telenovela method". The people from information-rich countries such as the US are the least likely candidates for language acquisition through TV programs.

While I believe it's crucial for good pronunciation to listen first, it's not the magic answer. You still need to be able to produce language and quite a few things can get in the way of your pronunciation, automatization etc. Your mother tongue will certainly interfere. I do believe that a fair amount of listening and language use will iron out most of your troubles. If you haven't already, spend some time with the first few FSI lessons. Look up phonology courses. TV is closer to actual spoken language than literary novels. These are not fighting words...

"Soy tu fan (English: I'm your fan) is a Mexican romantic comedy television series..."
"Para mis otros dos amigos; a una le regalé una foto de ella, que posaba como artista con una nota que decía: "Soy tu fan número uno". The second sentence was from a "book".

Someone just peered over my shoulder, read "soy tu fan"and told me it didn't sound Spanish. Of course that person has problems pronouncing menu items in a Mexican restaurant. Anyhow, you don't need to speak like that, but regular TV is about as close as most people can get to the living spoken language. That doesn't mean you shouldn't read, listen to the radio etc. Just a few minutes ago I saw an interview with a lady whose son attempted suicide. A real life story. Prior to that I watched a show about animals. You need to mix things up a bit.

I haven't been doing a lot of reading for whatever reasons. Now when I go back to it I've already lost a lot of the reading fluency that I had. I've been listening to some Spanish...watching TV shows... I've doing three hours of talking minimum per week, not including regular transactions and whatever other conversations happen from living in Mexico.

Feeling pretty discouraged. I feel like I've made some progress with my active vocabulary. I can watch dubbed stuff on Netflix completely forgetting it's in Spanish. I have moments where it feels as easy as English to me when listening...of course I'm missing stuff and misunderstanding things.

But my speaking!... It's terrible. I have no grasp of the simplest grammar forms. I think if I were to really study grammar for foreigners and memorize stuff I could actually speak.

Any suggestions on grammar to memorize? I honestly don't even know the terms in English to look for. I learned there is something called subjunctive today. Reflexive stuff I say all wrong and apparently everything I say sounds like I'm saying "fuck me" or "would you like me to insert myself to you?"

Look up Spanish-language elementary school grammar books and middle school textbooks. Look up that yellow Academia Española grammar for adults. I am not a believer in grammar study, but if you'll feel better about it, hit those books. The fact that you lost some of reading fluency after a short break tells me you need to listen and read a lot more before Spanish finds home in your head. You're making progress and doing all you can. You've reached a point with listening comprehension where you will learn many new grammatical patterns and vocabulary items without noticing them. You can throw in extra activities but beyond that it's like trying to will one's hair to grow faster. Good luck with your Spanish.

[nuncapense]

Thanks for the kind words and suggestions.

I've been watching a good amount of dubbed American trash on Netflix. I finally found some good Mexican movies, those by Luis Estrada, like La Ley de Herodes, and El Infierno--really excellent movies. The language in them is hard, a lot of swearing and slang, but after two or three watches, I think I know most of it.

The reading 'came back' to me pretty quickly with the Bolano book, which isn't very challenging.

I'm in a bad mood, so I'm going to complain below about living in Mexico and language learning:

Pinches Mexicanos never show up for anything. Supposedly it's a cultural difference (I'm from the US), but it's also incredibly inconvenient in a practical sense, and I find it personally insulting when someone repeatedly doesn't show up to appointments. They'll never mention it if you don't ask. They'll never apologize if you don't ask, and they only issue some sappy bullshit.

Outside of Mexico City, Mexicans are generally an intellectually impoverished people. Books are not available, and if they are, they are too expensive. So no one reads. Even worse than the idiotic people in the US, who have the books on their shelves, but can't be bothered to open them. In this Savage Detectives book I'm reading, the poet characters have to steal their books from the libraries, and they were even in Mexico City.

One of the reasons I'm frustrating with my language learning is...well of course I'm going to blame it on everyone but myself. In the US no one really speaks a second language--at least not the rich white university students. But they claim they do. And they really believe that they do speak that second or even third language. What an absurdity! So I've heard of all these acquaintances who 'speak' a second language after spending a few months studying abroad, and then I think 'well hey I've been in Mexico nearly two years why the hell can't I speak? What's wrong with me?' The same goes for some of the youtube language polyglots, people like Irish Benny, in particular.

[nuncapense]

I think I see your point about Soy Tu Fan. But I didn't explain myself very well in my post. What I was trying to say is that in that show the characters all talk like hip young Chilangos (Mexico City people). They use a lot of Mexican slang like "netta, guey, no mames, neta, etc." It seems like almost half of what they say is just the same slang phrases over and over. The show Alugien Mas is very similar. I can use some of these phrases, depending on who I'm talking to, like 'desmadre,' or 'pinche,' but I think I just sound silly using most of it. Nobody expects me to talk like a Mexican, and I feel like I'm making fun of them or imitating them if I use their words. To me it seems like people here expect foreigners to speak an 'accent free' (doesn't exist) or neutral kind of international Spanish, like the kind used in the dubbing houses in Mexico City for foreign movies.

I like your analogy about making hair grow faster.

In terms of grammar, I noticed that when I'm reading I still have almost no grasp on grammar, especially reflexive things. I might know all the vocabulary, but think that the character said something to his friends, only to realize later by context that the friends said something to him. Obviously this trips me up when speaking a lot.