Reading Spanish

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nuncapense
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby nuncapense » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:52 pm

I've had them, but Mexicans often don't show up for things, especially something as informal as a language exchange, or show up an hour late, not thinking it's a problem. It gets annoying.
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Tomás
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby Tomás » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:17 pm

nuncapense wrote:I've had them, but Mexicans often don't show up for things, especially something as informal as a language exchange, or show up an hour late, not thinking it's a problem. It gets annoying.


Understood. Norms surrounding punctuality, honesty, and frankness often make the highest barriers to cross-cultural communication.

Still, it seems like you could chat up some senior citizens in the park or the store or wherever you find them. These folks are often very thirsty for human interaction.
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urdubyoddballs
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby urdubyoddballs » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:03 pm

nuncapense wrote:For instance, I said "povre," pronouncing the "v" sound like an American, rather than the "pobre." I'm actually not sure if the b to v substitution is universal or something that only Mexicans do.

Apologies if this has been answered already - I didn't catch it at a quick scan through the subsequent posts.

That change is pretty much universal (i.e., not regional), but it isn't quite a "v". You'll hear a hard, English-style "b" after a pause or after an a nasal consonant (n or m). Everywhere else (as in "pobre"), you find a sound that's made with the lips and not the teeth (like a "b"), but without completely stopping the flow of air, only restricting it (like a "v"). Its IPA representation is [β].
Last edited by urdubyoddballs on Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nuncapense
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby nuncapense » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:02 pm

You're right, I probably could find people to talk with. I'm also working, which takes up time. And I'm finding everything takes a long time to do in Mexico, at least for me. Part of it is it's hard to get used to these new social rules. Nothing ever seems concrete, and people will agree to things and then not want to do them. I think it's hard for people in the US not to take it personally when this happens to them in Mexico.

I realized that later. I made a mistake with the "pobre." And I incorrectly thought it was a regional thing.

Al diablo con ingles. Voy a dar una patada buena al culo de ingles. Es un idioma del infierno, de que diablos sabes. Un lenguaje extrano, muy raro, de paises extranos y raros. Todo el mundo hablan ingles, por supuesto, excepto que todo el mundo hablan chino y ruso y todos los otros idiomas del mundo. La gente Mexicana no habla ingles, excepto cuando la genta Mexicana habla ingles. Y otra cosa, al diablo con mis errores. No me importa para nada. Hago un chingon de erores, un monton, pero esta bien, creo. Si la gente no puede entenderme, pues no es mi problema. Bueno, es mi problema, pero es normal, no? Creo q muchas vecez la gente de mi pais no puede entenderme en ingles tanpoco. Hablo con amgos y collegas de chamba y normalemente ellos pueden enteder solo un fracion de lo que yo digo. Pero lo mismo pasa con todos. El lenguaje en general no sirvenos para nada. Ojala que poedemos hablar en picturas o pensamientos.

Tengo un trabajo nuevo. Chamba es chamba. Es algo.

As you can see, I still have a lot of problems with grammar.
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reineke
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby reineke » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:41 am

You may have a problem, but grammar should be the least of your concerns. You've pinpointed one good reason for studying languages.
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nuncapense
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby nuncapense » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:57 am

reineke wrote:You may have a problem, but grammar should be the least of your concerns. You've pinpointed one good reason for studying languages.


what's my problem?
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby reineke » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:58 am

nuncapense wrote:
reineke wrote:You may have a problem, but grammar should be the least of your concerns. You've pinpointed one good reason for studying languages.


what's my problem?


You've turned success into a problem and your expectations have blossomed into frustrations.

Not counting the breaks you've been studying Spanish for about a year and a half. It's your first foreign language, one that you can actually speak and write. You pretty much learned it through audiobooks and TV shows. A good deal of the time you did not even pay full attention to what you were listening. You went from nothing to something. A lot of language learners, students and teachers don't even believe it's possible for an adult to learn a language solely through incomprehensible input. So far you've read the equivalent of 5,000 pages. That's a respectable amount for a hobbyist/dabbler but also the equivalent of only 3-4 thick paperback bestsellers. I don't know how many hours you watched TV/listened to Spanish with focused interest but you have no reason to be beating yourself over the head about your speaking mistakes. Your biggest mistake is that you're taking this issue too much to your heart. Identify your weak points and work on them. I believe you need to work on pronunciation. Grammar is everywhere.

Read again what you wrote a few pages ago:

"I don't know many people at home who have learned a second language later in life. Most of the people I knew who spoke more than one language were immigrants, and their English was often a little faulty."

You should be able to draw something positive from this.
Last edited by reineke on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nuncapense
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby nuncapense » Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:50 am

"I don't know many people at home who have learned a second language later in life. Most of the people I knew who spoke more than one language were immigrants, and their English was often a little faulty."

The people I'm referring to were Vietnamese, lots of Ethiopians, various Africans, and Mexicans. There is no culture of language learning or bilingualism where I come from among the people who were born there, so they do not know what it is like to learn a language. Because of this, the immigrants were often treated badly because of their non-native accents. Some spoke well. Some spoke very badly, with grammar and accents such that they simply were not understood except by people who were used to talking to them and had a certain sensibility themselves. I like to think I had a different attitude than most, maybe from living in abroad briefly in Egypt, and traveling through the Middle East and Morocco. I worked a lot of jobs at home that attracted immigrants because no qualifications were needed, but usually they were treated with disrespect and ridicule by the other workers and various boss types.

I don't think my attitude is coming across right on these posts, especially not what I write in Spanish. I've been happy recently with my progress, especially the progress that happened after reading. As you pointed out, it wasn't really much reading overall. The language teachers I've had in schools (I took classes in Arabic, Spanish, and French), compared to private teachers, either had never learned a foreign language (monolingual Arabic classes) or spoke their foreign language English terribly, so I don't think they had any idea how to learn a language, yet alone teach it. But they went by the books anyway, so it doesn't matter. I've decided before that the important thing for me is to just keep doing it: keep reading, keeping listening, because with the expat culture I could easily become someone who never gets beyond basic phrases. Hopefully in the end, at the worst, I'll eventually move back home and become someone who can read literature in Spanish but cannot talk and has no more contact with the language than that. That wouldn't be too bad.

I think the phrase is "taking it too much to heart" rather than "your heart."
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nuncapense
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby nuncapense » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:21 am

"Can you draw a lesson from this?"

Either you come across as insulting because you're not a native speaker, and don't understand the language well, or because you mean to. I don't care either way.
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urdubyoddballs
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Re: Reading Spanish

Postby urdubyoddballs » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:35 am

nuncapense wrote:I realized that later. I made a mistake with the "pobre."

I was impressed you heard it at all! Most Spanish students I've met don't even notice it's not a regular b till someone tells them, often years down the line. You've got a good ear.
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