Korean for Fun

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lichtrausch
Blue Belt
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:21 pm
Languages: English (N), German, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean
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Re: Mostly Asian Languages

Postby lichtrausch » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:47 pm

Sizen wrote:There was also an insane pronunciation of 교회 (gyohui) in one of my lessons. It honestly sounded like [kye]. Luckily, there was another speaker saying it closer to how I expected it to be pronounced, but I don’t know what to think about the other one. Was it a mistake? A dialectal difference? A modern pronunciation that isn’t reflected in writing?

It's a normal pronunciation, which you'll also hear in newscasts where they of course try to speak in a standard manner.
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Sizen
Green Belt
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:53 am
Languages: English (N), French, Japanese, Spanish, Mandarin, Korean
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18968
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Re: Mostly Asian Languages

Postby Sizen » Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:24 am

lichtrausch wrote:It's a normal pronunciation, which you'll also hear in newscasts where they of course try to speak in a standard manner.

I guess so! I searched 교회 on YouTube and within the first 10 seconds of the first non music video I found, I heard it again! At about 6 seconds in. I think I hear it more like [kjø] or [kʲø], now.
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vonPeterhof
Blue Belt
Posts: 879
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Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1237
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Re: Mostly Asian Languages

Postby vonPeterhof » Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:45 pm

Sizen wrote:I guess so! I searched 교회 on YouTube and within the first 10 seconds of the first non music video I found, I heard it again! At about 6 seconds in. I think I hear it more like [kjø] or [kʲø], now.

This is interesting, because I'm fairly certain that I'm hearing two syllables every time he says it. Granted the first syllable is said so briefly as to give the whole thing almost a sesquisyllabic feel, but I definitely feel like there are two vowels, [kʲowe] or [kʲøwe], or maybe even [kʲøɥe]. Granted, my expectations might be influenced by the spelling.
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Sizen
Green Belt
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:53 am
Languages: English (N), French, Japanese, Spanish, Mandarin, Korean
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18968
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Re: Korean for Fun

Postby Sizen » Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:15 pm

Ah sorry, i just meant the first syllable at this point. I definitely hear the second syllable. It was just the first part that sounded super weird to me.
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vonPeterhof
Blue Belt
Posts: 879
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:55 am
Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1237
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Re: Mostly Korean at this point

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed May 03, 2023 10:02 am

vonPeterhof wrote:This sort of reminded me of the shock I felt going from Biblical to Modern Hebrew, which still uses יש ל (roughly "there is at") as the default structure marking possession, but for definite nouns it also obligatorily adds the direct object marker, resulting in sentences like יש לי את הספר which reads like 私に本をある to my brain (especially since my native Russian also uses the "(there is) at me" possessive structure). This feels like transposing the paradigm of the verb "to have" onto יש most likely under the influence of the first languages of the first generation to revive Hebrew, like Yiddish, Polish, Judeo-Spanish and others.

Just as a bit of a follow-up on this, I got curious about this feature again after reading that the grammar of modern Hebrew is more similar to that of Mishnaic Hebrew than Biblical. I started to doubt my initial conclusion that the feature I noted must have appeared in the modern age under Indo-European influence, so I decided to dig further, and what I found is that while this general idea is correct, it's apparently a bit more complicated than just transposing the "to have" paradigm.
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