Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

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Le Baron
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:23 pm

tastyonions wrote:I'm curious, why do you suspect Assimil might be a better approach than TY? (I've never gone through a whole TY course myself, just asking out of interest.)

I don't know that it's necessarily better in itself, but I do like that more direct approach and that Assimil is often more light-hearted with jokes. I decided to go back and try a TY course because I did use some in the past (Russian, Norwegian, German, Greek!) and found them useful, but these were the older ones which were much more like grammars. I'm not even bothered that they're not like that now, because it's a friendly sort of course.

Perhaps I should take my own advice which I dole out to others and 'complete the course' first.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:30 pm

It has been a while since I used those courses. Take my comments with a grain of salt. The TY generation I've used (say, mid 1990s) has more content per lesson, more explanations and perhaps more exercises as well. (I think Colloquial also fits this description.) They are also more theme-based. (The older ones, hard cover with blue and yellow book jacket, covered a lot of grammar.) Assimil, on the other hand, has shorter lessons, more lessons... the jokes have been mentioned... Both courses have their strong points. Perhaps they cover roughly the same kind of vocabulary. (I haven't counted, but I'm sure that someone has.)

I don't know which of the two I would choose if I started a new language. Perhaps it's not a question of either / or. Perhaps I'd start using one, and then use the other one. Who knows.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Iversen » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 pm

The last text book I have used (only the book) was Assimil's Occitan course - and I dropped it midway because the kind of Occcitan it tried to teach me was the kind you use for smalltalk - and my prospects of needing to have smalltalk in Occitan are zilch (I'm more inclined to read Wikipedia or historical texts). However I'm definitely in favour of the two-layer translations.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:08 pm

Well it did rain today, from about 1pm and, most annoyingly as always, moderate rain stretched out over a few hours. Yet it's too warm to wear any protective rain gear on a bike without feeling like you're in a sauna. So I was cycling with a large umbrella and eventually I did put on at least some shower-proof trousers, but it was tiresome cycling with those.

All I really needed to do was visit the cloth market in the morning. I probably should have come home afterwards, but because the central library is now nearby at the square across from the bottom of the same road, I decided to go there to read the newspapers/magazines and have a wander about. There's also a sheet music library so I like having a look there as well. I noticed they have more Spanish literature than the last time I looked. I looked to see what was on offer in Swahili, not much, but the computers said they had some in storage.

The rain thinned-out while I was in there, but I still used the umbrella on the way back. Everything is so lush and green in comparison to only a couple of weeks ago when it still looked solidly like a winter landscape. Every blossom tree is in bloom, from white to pink to purple. Near the library there's an old back street with early blooming flowering lilacs and they have a conspicuous perfume. They seem to bloom earlier each year. Further on the other side of the city there are more of these near a small walled park-garden called the 'Lavendeltuin'. The lilacs are like vines all around the top of the walls and in the interior it is indeed filled with lavender plants. The aroma in there is arresting. Within a few weeks it'll likely be possible to read outdoors in the little parks.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:56 pm

FR: Ce matin, j'ai parlé avec ma voisine du changement général des interactions sociales depuis la pandémie et elle parlait de 'l'amélioration de soi', de 'self-care' et de la 'propreté mentale'. Tout ce qu'elle a accumulé grâce à la thérapie qu'elle a suivie pendant près d'une décennie. Je lui ai proposé l'idée qu'en fait il n'y a pas eu beaucoup de changement en ce qui concerne du 'bien-être', au niveau social plutôt que personnel. Et que trop souvent l'accent est toujours mis sur le "bonheur personnel" et dans des paramètres étroits. Comme d'habitude, parce qu'on a eu cette discussion à plusieurs reprises, elle ne l'a pas reconnu, mais ne le voit qu'à travers un prisme de "soi", de "moi".

Aux Pays-Bas, en générale, il y a une profonde réticence à discuter de choses comme la dépression, le malheur et surtout des causes sociales (politiques, économiques) de ces conditions parmi la population générale. Au lieu de cela il est encadré comme un problème personnel. Un problème dont la solution ne réside pas dans les champs du bien-être social (plutôt médical), mais apparemment dans le: 'développement personnel'. Et donc nous avons tous les livres douteux et les 'thérapeutes' qui colportent cette 'aide' superficielle. Tous les magazines se faisant passer pour des revues académiques légers offrant des 'conseils psychologiques', souvent en '10 étapes', comme une forme de propagande sous la forme de: "comment être heureux ?"

Une prétendue explication de la raison pour laquelle cet état superficiel de bonheur est un droit, votre droit d’être heureux, et implicitement la notion que notre bonheur personnel (et le bonheur personnel de chacun, venant de l'intérieur de vous-même et rarement de l’extérieur) est la vraie différence entre une mauvaise et une bonne société. Un état de bonheur mal défini, à mon avis, qui est, en réalité, fondé sur une indépendance personnelle; lui-même fondée sur l'indépendance financière dans une société extrêmement basée sur l'argent et une capacité à exclure les facteurs sociaux qui en découlent. Ou cela qui est un problème social, mais qui, à la surface, se présente comme une forme d’ascétisme propre, visant la simplicité (prétendue) de la vie et anti-consumérisme. Notions bourgeoises typiques d'amélioration sociale!
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:04 pm

Well it's 'Koningsdag' today here in NL. Which means the majority of people here go temporarily mental for two days. I didn't really have to go to the city at all today, but a customer rang me yesterday to ask if a certain jacket was ready and since it is I foolishly said 'yes'. Which didn't indicate to me that I should deliver it. I wish I'd taken it to the city workshop on Monday and left it there, because I could have told him to pick it up there and someone else could have done the final 'fitting' (i.e. no fitting because it's finished).

But then he said 'oh...' in a deflated way, and explained that because it is Koningsdag tomorrow (and Konings-night tonight) he was after taking it to whichever soirée he is going. So.. considering the possibility of me passing by somewhere else I need to go to eventually I said I would take it there. On condition of settled payment - which came through quite rapidly because he used a credit card. Then I went to the city. :x

I swear every second road is blocked off by bars and residents deciding to make 'party streets' out of them. I got to a particular junction of three streets in the old part of the city and there was high fencing across the entire street! With similar cloth they use to cover scaffolding. I was fairly annoyed. I said to someone at the side: 'Hey, I need to get through here there's no other route!' And he started pointing back the other way and saying 'yeah, you can go round...' And I said: 'Hey pal, I know the way around, but we can't all take a mile detour because you people are blocking off the public road for a private pub!' There were about 15 other cyclists behind me, but a gap at the side of the fencing so I went through and ignored him. There was a red and white tape over the other end of the road which I just pushed up and ducked under and then I gave them the V sign and carried on. With faint cries of 'hey!' fading away behind me. :lol:

I had to stop at a cafe on the corner in the bohemian part and have a cool drink so I wouldn't turn up there with a livid temperament. When I got there he opened the door with a massive Havana cigar in his gob and asked me the wrong question: 'Is everything fine?' I took the opposite route back home, through a park area. If he lived on that side in the first place it would have been a breeze.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:01 pm

Warning - if your time is short, skip reading this. I'm going to meander. :D

Crikey on a bikey! I went into the city to see what was going on and have a look at the Koningsdag street markets. It's always a sea of orange as practically everyone is dressed in orange or partially so. You have to be prepared for shut-off roads and thousands of bikes in the way and people cavorting all over the streets. I parked my bike in a quiet side street on the other side of the moat, otherwise you come back and ten other bikes are against yours and they might even be chained together! Yes, this really happens.

I've been among worse crowds on this day, but I left it until 14:30 so by that time all those revellers move further into the city near the Janskerk. Where they play loud, poor quality 'music' and engage in various levels of Heineken-fuelled debauchery. Some of them were still among the markets so they were blocking the streets a bit. As I turned a corner I was faced by an aged man standing forlornly while his wife, I assume, rifled through a pile of books on the floor. He was wearing an orange clown-style fright wig and his haunted face was a horrible juxtaposition to the bright orange; like one of those old clowns or a sort of Ronald McDonald due for retirement. Hideous.

As you snake your way through the crowds you catch snippets of the conversations of passing people. A surprisingly high number of people speaking 'foreign English'. Something which grates on me, because if someone speaks, say, 'foreign' Spanish or German or even Dutch, there are remarks about it, Not necessarily negative ones, but it is noted. Whereas English, the 'world language', can be freely mangled by anyone and it's considered legit. The things people say though, such insincere nonsense for the moment and to just talk. Behind certain stalls, which are outside the people's houses that just hit the street in the centre of the city, people have their little sound systems wired up and pump out that invariable thump x 4 'dance' music which is perennially popular among people here during any sort of feast-day. Bass line just a single note following the relentless bass drum and synth brass 'noises'. Then it has a 2-4 beat break and ploughs on again. Abysmal stuff.

And yet further on you see better in-between. A string quartet who obviously study at one of the music schools, playing Shostakovich. A woodwind trio nearby playing something I didn't identify. Two very young girls, about 10 or 12, probably sisters, playing jazz saxophone and harmonising with great skill. Then those 'bands' with a highly-extroverted little singer who always remind me of things like 'Hanson'. They're peppered everywhere. Like in Paris's 7 and 16th arrondissements this is the rich areas. So all those kids have expensive Nord studio pianos and a full sound system. Also punchable, smooth faces with perma-grins.

If you want an insight into what makes up the 'merchant' character here you must listen closely. About 10 or 15 times I heard people saying, surreptitiously they think: 'yes...I can resell this on ebay/marktplaats !' And as time rolls on people give up their stalls and just abandon the stuff in the street and others pick through it, because a some of it is decent stuff. Eventually the city's trucks will come round and take the lot anyway. Consumer waste. And I saw a mother doing that thing I've seen many times before. Sending out a pack of children like Fagin's gang to overwhelm all the boxes before anyone else can check through. And she was saying: 'all this is free for the taking, if it's in good state we can resell it.' Capitalism is taught from the knee here.

A good thing is starting conversations with people in various languages. You can hear someone's accent and then have a go. Sometimes they even start first. French is always thin on the ground, but Spanish and German is common. I met load of Tanzanians with a colourful stall and braving only my few months of Swahili* I had a pop... :D 'Hamjambo! (hello all!) Nyinyi ni Wakenya? (Are you Kenyans?). I knew they weren't, but it was just to trigger a response. Naongea kidogo tu... (I only speak a little...). Had to warn them I'd get lost. Then even though we followed in a mix of English/Dutch they were telling me I was doing well. Scary-exciting.

A man sold me a Spanish grammar for a euro and said he no longer needed it having learned Spanish, so I continued in my own imperfect Spanish and he was blank-faced. He said, 'I'm not that good at Spanish, but I am at German..' I thought 'sir, you're playing with fire here.' But I'm a nice person so I thanked him for the book and moved on. :)

So you know. I walked around a bit. Had a waffle with a bit of cream and jam, looked at records, books, bric-a-brac and stuff. Bought an Indonesian-English dictionary for a euro, four comics for 50 cents then had a cycle round following the moat around to the route back home. Hurray.

*edit - not few 'months', but few 'weeks' of Swahili!
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Le Baron » Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:42 pm

I was at the Language café yesterday and it was a bigger turnout than usual. We were out in the park right in the middle of the city. There must have been a couple of coaches on a trip from Germany because the city was full of German tourists, similar to the French tourists a week or so ago, and some came through the park so of course we were willing to chat and placed ourselves conveniently where the park leads over the bridge into the city proper. How helpful we are. 8-)

Before all that we were having a discussion about two things:

1. Word learning and retention.
2. The actual reasons impeding language interaction or use.

At least one of the people present reads this forum and goes to pretty much all the same locations to find out what others are doing to learn words. The same YouTube, the same websites, the same Anki (or no Anki). I remarked that I'm lax with Anki and also somewhat lax with concentrated word-learning in general. I do write down words into small lists, but don't pore over them. There is a question mark over whether I actually learn many of them and in what way. When I encounter new words (in any language, though perhaps differently in a new one) I tend to just look at it for a while, checking its meaning then looking at ways in which it is used. What its gender is (if any), how it gets conjugated, a fair range of sample sentences containing this word and how it operates. Definitely trying to find out if it is a core word in wide use, or some specialist word. If it's the latter I note it and move on.

My question to myself is always: has it entered your conscious/subconscious mind? On many occasions I have come across a word, looked at it a bit then moved on, and months later seen it in a text or heard it and after a slight pause I've recalled it. Sometimes the word isn't part of those 2000-5000 core words, so I always hope to discover that maybe only that exposure is necessary and all the Anki-ing and multiple 'reps' is like someone does Sellotape overkill to hold something in place? That just one or two strips is enough most of the time. That perhaps forcibly jogging your memory in 'Anki sessions' might be counterproductive at times? Very difficult to know. I mean if I didn't go at it hammer and tongs with Anki during Spanish (I didn't) then where did all the words come from? Diverse sources no doubt: cognates from French and English; from reading. I wish I knew.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby tastyonions » Mon May 01, 2023 12:10 am

I’ve used Anki a few different ways:

* Push high-frequency words into receptive vocabulary faster than they might otherwise enter it
* Present low-frequency words to me more often than I’d encounter them naturally
* Push words into active vocabulary by doing NL -> TL cards, definition -> word cards, or cloze deletions

The third method is definitely the one I’ve used most frequently and I’ve found it pretty helpful.

I find that the simple act of singling out a word and writing it down when I first meet it helps retention.
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Re: Hare-brained language learning schemes 2023

Postby Caromarlyse » Mon May 01, 2023 9:21 am

I also have no idea really how I actually learn words.
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