Smelling the coffee in 2023

[Cavesa]

I've started a thread on interactive coursebooks, the digital versions of normal coursebooks. Please, add your experience, I think this is something that we really don't discuss enough. A part of the language resource market, that's really been growing in the last few years.

And I am considering buying myself Erkundungen in digital version, but I haven't tried the platform yet, and I'd have to buy the book for almost the same price as the paper one.

Don't get me wrong, I am not expecting every publisher to be as generous as Edilingua (giving the digital version "for free" to each paper version, that is an excellent strategy, especially for classgoers, which are a huge part of their target market). But you know, having a more advantageous paper+digital offer would make total sense. I bought the paper, as it was meant for class. But I am now much more comfortable with digital coursebooks, they are somewhat easier to stick to (contrary to normal books, which simply attract me more on paper).

There seems to be no digital version of Sicher. And Erkundungen would mean buying the same thing for the second time. Which sucks.

Onto Sicher!

Oh, and I'm about to join 6WC. I will sign up with something I don't plan to learn and add my German as just the general learning time.

[tiia]

I had sort of mixed emotions, when one patient asked her where she was from, proud to have not missed she was "from the east", and he didn't ask me Yes, I am at the same time proud for not being asked (she makes me appear native ), but annoyed that she is strengthening the stereotypes about us "from the east". At the same time, I known damn well I am from Central Europe unlike her, and I hate being labeled "Eastern", but at the same time I cannot ignore that we are unfortunately on the same boat in the public opinion of so many. It's hard to be a "second rate white", which is the most precise name for our ethnic/racial/stereotype situation.

I would love to live in a world, where I could simply be proud of my roots, just like immigrants from the old EU countries or even other regions. But I don't. So, I am proud mainly of blending in.

You know, Germans are often not too proud of being German. This national pride thing is quite different in Germany compared to other countries. (This definitely has to do with the history and how we treat it. - Something I find actually to be done quite well.) It's sometimes weird to be expected to be more proud of being a German than you are. I mean I feel lucky to be born where I was born, and it definitely has certain advantages. So in that sense I can be happy about it, but proud? That's a different thing.
It's interesting to see also how living abroad changes some views. Now I sometimes feel to be pushed more into the "you're a German" thing from the outside than I would do it myself. In Germany I never really had to think about what it meant for myself to be "a German". I was just certain that all the clishees were not really fitting (because they are mostly about Bavaria).
Now I see some things that would never come up in any list of "typical German things". For example when I think about food, then there would be cream spinach (Rahmspinat), kohlrabi (yes, it's even kohlrabi in English...) or the toppings on a pizza (turns out those are surprisingly different in Finland).

The whole thing how people see other people is pretty interesting. I think some people don't want to acknowledge how differently people even coming from within Europe are seen. (Because discussions about racism often have a too American view nowadays, that doesn't wholly reflect the European situation.)
But it is clear that there are stereotypes about people from different European countries. Prejudices towards the more Eastern and Southern countries are often more negative than towards the Northern and Western ones.

I think I only learned the thing with who is seeing themselves as part of Central Europe, when visiting Bratislava. I guess many somehow still consider everything that was once behind the Iron Curtain to be Eastern.
For someone not from Germany it may also be interesting to hear that even within Germany people living in the area of the former GDR (except Berlin!) are often facing prejudices. When I considered studying in the state of Saxony, I totally heard some weird comments. - Something that made me even more sure about moving there. And let's be honest: I'm happy to have lived in both parts of the country.
But I also started to notice how negative the reports about this region can be and that it's not really tried to solve the issues. It makes me quite sad, because I really enjoyed living there.

At the same time this move also made me realise how close Poland and the Czech Republic actually were. Seeing that the border was just an hour away changed the perspective. (Before it was the Dutch border being an hour away.) And still it took me 4-5 years to visit Prague the first time (and later Bratislava, Budapest and Wraclaw). Before that I had only taken a peak across the Polish border - something you cannot count as "visiting".
People at the University were more eager to learn Spanish or French than Polish or Czech. However, there were people learning Polish and/or Czech!
But indeed I would hope people would not have such hesitation and be more open to other cultures and countries.

And before this post is becoming longer and longer I'm going to cook myself some dinner, including kohlrabi. (Because I'm that German )

Btw. I've been wondering about this for a while: but would you like to get comments in German, if I happen to comment something in your log?

[Cavesa]

You know, Germans are often not too proud of being German. This national pride thing is quite different in Germany compared to other countries. (This definitely has to do with the history and how we treat it. - Something I find actually to be done quite well.) It's sometimes weird to be expected to be more proud of being a German than you are. I mean I feel lucky to be born where I was born, and it definitely has certain advantages. So in that sense I can be happy about it, but proud? That's a different thing.

Well, I know this is still a thing (at least out loud), but the arrogant behaviour of many Germans and Austrians towards Czechs or anyone labeled "from the east" shows otherwise.

And even "standard behaving Germans", for a lack of a better term (not the arrogant assholes thinking themselves richer and more important than anyone) don't seem ashamed for their nationality. Perhaps not hyperproud ad absurdum, like many americans, but they never seem ashamed. Judging not just by words but also non-verbal reactions. That is simply not the situation of central and eastern europeans. We are usually well aware of the prejudices. Germans are already two or three generations away from their "ashamed era" and have tons of money to help everyone forget about that.

I was just certain that all the clishees were not really fitting (because they are mostly about Bavaria).

That's an interesting point, that we've also touched in a few threads on minority languages. The Germans tend to identify as Bavarinans/other first, German second. Do you feel the same way?

The French tend to identify as French first, Alsacien/Lorrain/Bordelais/Parisien second. People from the central and eastern european countries identify either by country, or by a former country (typically emigrants from former yugoslavia), or some even by infra-country unit (in my country Moravians, or people from Prague. I identify as European, Praguer, Czech, in that order)

But far too often, we all get denied any right to publicly self identify too loudly, we just get label "eastern europe", even when it is totally wrong. Including people trying to correct my correction to "central europe". It has happened to be a few times, that my very gentle correction to "central europe" was answered by some ignorant "western" (wherever he was geographically from) moron trying to lecture me on the Iron Curtain and on my own culture and history

Now I see some things that would never come up in any list of "typical German things".

And were you always like this? Or has the language learning and moving abroad changed you?

I think I only learned the thing with who is seeing themselves as part of Central Europe, when visiting Bratislava. I guess many somehow still consider everything that was once behind the Iron Curtain to be Eastern.
For someone not from Germany it may also be interesting to hear that even within Germany people living in the area of the former GDR (except Berlin!) are often facing prejudices. When I considered studying in the state of Saxony, I totally heard some weird comments. - Something that made me even more sure about moving there. And let's be honest: I'm happy to have lived in both parts of the country.
But I also started to notice how negative the reports about this region can be and that it's not really tried to solve the issues. It makes me quite sad, because I really enjoyed living there.

It is very human, and one of the uglier human characteristics, that misfortune of others tends to make us feel better about ourselves. So, the "western" Germans look down on the "eastern" ones, and those take comfort in looking down on us, and we used to take comfort in looking down on the ukrainians. And they probably had a target too. Many people do it, enough for me to dare to generalise in this sentence.

Were there any stereotypes on both sides, that you find particularly weird? Please, I am curious.

At the same time this move also made me realise how close Poland and the Czech Republic actually were. Seeing that the border was just an hour away changed the perspective. (Before it was the Dutch border being an hour away.) And still it took me 4-5 years to visit Prague the first time (and later Bratislava, Budapest and Wraclaw). Before that I had only taken a peak across the Polish border - something you cannot count as "visiting".
People at the University were more eager to learn Spanish or French than Polish or Czech. However, there were people learning Polish and/or Czech!
But indeed I would hope people would not have such hesitation and be more open to other cultures and countries.

Yep, it is much more about prestige than actual utility. Distance doesn't really matter. The "for business" languages are all in the shadow of English anyways, so that is much less of a criteria for the choice now. But when you learn Spanish/French, it is seen as cool. Polish/Czech as totally uncool, and perhaps even a sad charity. It's not even about the money anymore. In many aspects, the Czech Republic is economically equal to some of the cooler countries.

It's a lot about the PR, in this context called "soft power". Unfortunately, neither the Czech Republic nor Poland, have been able to really present themselves well. It's not just about industry and such stuff. The soft power matter. And it's definitely not much about tourism advertisements.

If Poland learnt from the scandinavian countries, it would be investing some money and working very hard on its image right now. And very successfully imho. Right now, it gets international media attention only for politics (usually very sad stuff). If it tried the scandinavian way, it would be storming international bookstores with not only Sapkowski, but also Grzedowicz, Kosakowska, Pilipiuk, and many others. The Polish fantasy could be the new scandinavian thrillers. It would coproduce new movies based on stuff like Solaris by Lem or Quo Vadis by Sienkiewicz. It would heavily invest in selling Polish movies and tv shows abroad, Netflix made "1983" would be just the first shiny example of Polish success.

But nope. We are not seeing this, we are seeing Poland just let this potential huge wave of interest, brought by the Witcher series and games, die out without impact. It's a shame.

And the Czech Republic is no better. Together, they could draw interest to many more subjects and lessons, they have a lot of valuable experience to share. They could grow in soft power and secondarily profit economically and politically from that. But nope, we will not focus on that. We'll stick to the image that Poland=bigotry and Czech Rep.=alcoholism instead.

/end rant

And before this post is becoming longer and longer I'm going to cook myself some dinner, including kohlrabi. (Because I'm that German )

Btw. I've been wondering about this for a while: but would you like to get comments in German, if I happen to comment something in your log?

Long posts are very welcome in my log! Yours are excellent, always food for thought.

Yes please, I would love to read from you in German. I should try to post in it too, I know

[Cavesa]

I'm suddenly a happy person! I am again working at emergency! A little bit limited (as it is a small peripheric hospital), compared to the previous one, but still very cool, varied, and interesting. I love it. I spent the weekend at work, but it was a rather light workload, and we had some cool cases and excellent atmosphere with coworkers. Unlike in the previous department, I was proud of myself for something every day (yesterday, I correctly strongly suspected a small brain bleeding based on very very light and less typical symptomes and in spite of the nurse really pushing me to a much lighter approach to this head trauma. I convinced my boss with my arguments, she confirmed my suspicions, the lady got her scan, the correct diagnosis and the appropriate care! That's what I've been studying for, not eternal meetings about administration!). And also everyday, I found something I need and want to learn much better (yep, the hyponatremias are still my nemesis. and the ions in general are still far from comfortable for me). (And yes, I feel I have forgotten a lot during my months of suffering in geriatry). My new superiors are excellent, really teaching us, but also giving us the appropriate amount of autonomy.

My German is suffering, hard to do with 12h shifts. But still moving foward at a snail pace. Priority: to finish fast the Sicher B1+ and to sign up for more italki. Right now in Star Trek Voyager S02E07 and I am getting more comfortable. Watching the show is more fun and relax than it was just a dozen episodes ago.

A cool piece of news: Language Reactor now offers accurate subtitles! It is some sort of AI generator of subtitles based on the sound of the dubbing! It looks that it is precise. Just be patient, it takes a short while to generate them, don't give up after a few seconds. (I did give up on a few episodes, before I understood the problem thanks to a kind redditor).

I am really hesitating and might buy a coursebook for the second time, just in the digital version. Screens seem to be easier for me in terms of consistency. Anyone has tried the digital versions of Erkundungen or Sicher, please?

[tiia]

This post grew too long... If I may have written some aspects more than once, that's because I'm starting to lose track what I wrote where.
In other threads that would sometimes be the moment where I then realise that I never get a good and satisfying post done in a reasonable time and then delete the whole thing and never post anything.

And even "standard behaving Germans", for a lack of a better term (not the arrogant assholes thinking themselves richer and more important than anyone) don't seem ashamed for their nationality. Perhaps not hyperproud ad absurdum, like many americans, but they never seem ashamed. Judging not just by words but also non-verbal reactions. That is simply not the situation of central and eastern europeans. We are usually well aware of the prejudices. Germans are already two or three generations away from their "ashamed era" and have tons of money to help everyone forget about that.

You never know whom you meet. Going to a bar with another German and being confrontated with someone doing a nazi salute isn't really something I would have wished for... (yes the person was drunk.) He probably considered it a joke.
Other from my Finnish courses told about being confronted with "you burnt the forests in Lapland".
I would really hope for a better education here in Finland, so that it would be clear to everyone that this is absolutely inappropriate and no joke.

I may not know what you consider a "standard behaving German". Could it be also a bias whom you're recognizing as "German"? The quiet ones are not the ones one will notice.

I was just certain that all the clishees were not really fitting (because they are mostly about Bavaria).

That's an interesting point, that we've also touched in a few threads on minority languages. The Germans tend to identify as Bavarinans/other first, German second. Do you feel the same way?

Well.. I'm pretty sure I'm not going by the "norm" here.
Honestly, I have difficulties to associate myself with just one region in Germany, so I may identify myself as German before a certain region. This is not because of being a proud German or even feeling particularly German, but because of the lack of other options. But it's certainly more a "more Northern German" feel. Moving abroad for sure had an influence on this matter.

I guess I have to explain this now a bit more:
I'm born in A (in the North), grew up in B and studied in C. All three regions lie several hundred kilometers apart. We moved to place B when I was very young, so my memories of place A are limited to vacations in my early childhood.
But still I always had the feeling of not belonging to region B and grew up thinking that place A is "home", though that feeling probably faded with time. I disliked the dialect in B and kept my way of speaking as close to my parents/standard German as possible. Nowadays I have heard people from B asking me where I come from, because I do not sound like them. They are surprised to find out I spent half of my life there. There are only a few words from that region that I actually use, because I didn't know any better or didn't get them as localised words.
After living in place C for almost 10 years (and now additional 5 years in Finland), I feel like I have finally made peace with B. But saying "I come from B" without any further note still feels wrong, because I never felt that way. And it would neglect completely the decade I lived in C. And I liked C (in contrast to B).
(I do like my parents' house though and there are also beautiful areas etc. The whole dislike most likely has also a lot to do with the experiences I made in B.)

When being outside Germany and being asked where I come from, it was easy, when I was an exchange student/living in C. The answer was C. Because that was where I studied and the place I would return to.
But now? It feels like a mess. I try to say "from Germany" and hope to avoid further questions. But if people ask "from where in Germany?" (it happens a lot) I may say I'm "from B and C" or "from the East and West" or "it's complicated".
However, people are usually not happy with those answers. And to get a better answer they then ask "so where were you born?". Well... I guess you see the issue here.
People seem to be irritated if you don't identify yourself with just one certain region in your country of origin.
So I started to dislike this question as I cannot answer it shortly in a way that feels right and is still satisfying for those who ask.

So while being emotionally attached to C, B and maybe even A in a way, the only thing these places have in common is that they are located in the northern half of the country. I would probably happily answer with just one word, if there would be only one place within the country I'm somehow attached to. But so I see saying that I'm "from Germany" also as connection of three regions.


So now continuing with the order of feeling European, member of a region, a country or whatever, I don't know.

Like I said before, I feel like this "you're this or that" is more pushed onto me than I feel it myself. First of all I see myself as [insert first name here].

If we concentrate just on the aspect of location/origin, then I don't know what the order would be.
As I have those issues with the regional aspect, there's only the European, world or German thing left as categories. I don't think I could add Finnish here (yet).
I don't feel very German, but since my move abroad I definitely see more aspects as "German". This only changed with moving abroad, not with learning languages. Not even my exchange year was enough to really make a difference. I would say it took my around two years here to notice.

Do I feel European? Yes and no. (or not enough?)
I have experience with living in two countries in the EU. I also traveled a lot and also to different places.
But Finnish and German culture are still quite similar, probably even on the European scale.
So there are so many places even in Europe that I don't really know about. I don't know about their culture and their way of living, so I see my own limitations here. I don't want to put myself above someone else.
What I can do is try to listen and try to accept and adapt, as long as there are no good reasons not to. (I adapted for example by using the term Central Europe. - Before it was pointed out, I probably would have called it "Eastern" as well. I just didn't know better.)
Maybe I would like to feel even more European. I don't know. In my opinion being European is seen relatively positive in the way that it's about integrating and exchange and not so much associated with "we against them".
For me respecting people should not be limited to borders, so a "we against them" attitude doesn't fit me.


And because writing this post takes already way too much time, I get even more time to think about it - thus getting the chance to make it even longer.

I see a difference in between identifiying myself with something as a connecting factor vs. a seperating factor.
The national level could be often associated as a seperation from other nationalities, while European may be seen as a connecting factor within Europe. Both are maybe rather abstract for the individual. And the local culture would be just the one that you are mostly in contact with and through the direct contact it's easier to identify yourself with it?

Does this makes sense?


Another thought: Does it make a difference for you if you call yourself European/Praguer/Czech which language you're using?

I guess I'm more hesitant calling myself a German in my mothertongue compared to English or Finnish. In German the whole regional aspect is also not so complicated to explain. People familiar with German geography know where those places are and that they are not close to each other. Non-Germans often have trouble with anything that is not Berlin or Munich.
Recently I called myself probably (one of) the first time(s) an "Ausländer" in German towards natives. (It was an online discussion about having a migration background.) It felt extremly weird using the "Ausländer" word for myself, while saying the same in English or Finnish isn't too weird (anymore).

Now I see some things that would never come up in any list of "typical German things".

And were you always like this? Or has the language learning and moving abroad changed you?

Moving abroad has changed a lot. Just learning languages no. Learning languages means more learning about other cultures, but you don't have to reflect your own behaviour/customs so much.

Were there any stereotypes on both sides, that you find particularly weird? Please, I am curious.

What I had been thinking about when writing the previous quote was, when I told people I was moving to C. (Lets just keep the abbreviations from before.)
I got (at least?) two comments from completely unrelated people like "Ich würde ja überall hingehen außer in den Osten." - I considered both people being open minded and in my generation, so this somehow shocked me. But it also assured me that I definitely should go there if people are still having such a problem with it.
When chatting with someone else I knew from school, I often sat in the university on the floor, because I had not yet found better places with electrical outlets and had not yet ordered internet for my home. Probably when searching again for a free outlet I got a comment joking whether we don't have electricity over there yet.

Otherwise the East is often associated with (rightwing) extremism and all the ugly stuff around it. Unfortunately I cannot deny the existence, but the counter efforts seem to be often neglected by the media. You only report about the negative issues...

Yes please, I would love to read from you in German. I should try to post in it too, I know

Ähm ich glaub das mit dem mehr Deutsch schreiben muss ich auf später verschieben.

[Cavesa]

Now in 2nd unit of Sicher B1+. It is 95% review but some stuff is useful.
What do I do: all the exercises in the Kursbuch and Arbeitsbuch, except for the "talk to a classmate" and similar kind of stuff. Anki all the vocab. Including even vocab not on the lists (more of it in the AB than KB, curiously). And I am experimenting with the idea of turning some grammar exercises into Anki cloze deletions. Why: I am still inspired by the best blog about Italian and German C2 that I've ever read, the learner ankied tons of examples etc.

It is a review, and curiously, Units 1 and 2 seem to have harder grammar than the later ones, at least for me. I hate making mistakes in adjective declinations, and I really dislike the denn/doch/ja/eigentlich/mal particles.

Other than that: Star Trek a bit.

And also, I've very recently visited Zürich with my younger sister. I liked the city. It is germanophone and rather small, but it is already a real city. It feels good. The Swiss German is horrible though, I am so lost trying to understand anything at all! I guess from the context or sometimes my brain processes the simple phrase several seconds later. I feel a bit discouraged. Ok, very discouraged, but I need to go on.

The only other resource purely on Swiss German that I've found: Swissmeme page of facebook. Good, but there isn't enough content.

Is there any tv show in Swiss German? Perhaps some more or less generic crime show? I think I heard of one or two, but haven't found it yet.

We've also visited a few bookstores in Zürich, including a huuuuge second hand bookstore: Bücher Brocky. I found a few fantasy books, it was great. But unfortunately, they don't have any eshop. Even the physical store is more or less chaotic, but tons of good books for good prices. But I'd really like an eshop.
.....
A funny story: : I've recently asked for online second hand bookstores with German books on the German learning subreddit. I logically assumed, that learning foreign books from abroad is normal learner problem. But nope. I got a few ideas on eshops to try (which I am now looking into and will visit after the next salary), and then the thread got removed. The excuse "it is off topic, it is about life in Germany, not about language learning".

Of course I found this very stupid and asked the mods about the removal. The response was "As already explained by another user, the question you asked does not really relate to the German language per se, it's more of a question about life in Germany. You may use books to further your knowledge of the German language, but then you might just as well ask about where to buy used mobile phones or TVs. That's why I removed the thread and asked you to post it in /r/Germany."

Can you believe the level of stupidity in this answer?

I couldn't care less about living in Germany, I am asking for eshops selling used German books OUTSIDE of the Germany. So, I called it out as moronic (the answer), and suggested the mod to ask the other mods' opinion, preferably someone more intelligent. And I got banned, which is ok. The /German subreddit has really been changing for the worse in the last few months. A far too large % of threads are questions that could be answered just by opening a textbook or even googling , tons of questions on dumb apps, etc.

I asked a question pertinent to the actually serious learners, and it ended up this way. I knew I was gonna get banned, when I asked the stupid mods for their reasoning. My answer may have been banable by the rules (which logically protect even an extremely dumb mod), but I still consider my answer as very polite and mild, considering the level of idiocy shown by them.

A language learner (as I suppose a mod of German learning forum is a learner) seeing no difference between used foreign books and a used tv! Seeing no difference in the difficulty of getting them! Seeing no difference in how they relate to language learning! How can anyone be so stupid? I even gave them a chance to fix this error by asking about the removal, and they showed their stupidity even more!

Most of us here have been part of various online language learning communities. Sometimes, we tend to spend too much time on it all anyways. So, it makes sense to keep only the good ones. In this case, I am not missing out on anything anymore. And while I am not narcissic to believe the subreddit to be missing out on much by losing me, I'd certainly hope they are not treating more of their more successful members like this.

So the bottom line: if you have a personal good experience with a secondhand book eshop with books in German, please tell me. My next tries are the few from the removed thread, but I don't know yet, whether the shipping and everything will be alright. And careful on the /German subreddit, some of the mods are terribly stupid.

[rdearman]

secondhand book eshop with books in German,

I'm a little confused by the meaning of this sentence. Do you mean:

1. An online shop which sells physical books in German
2. An online shop which sells electronic books (epubs, mobi, etc)
3. A physical offline shop which sells electronic books (epubs, mobi, etc)

Anyway, if you're looking for physical books, in German, you could try AbeBooks (Although I think they are owned by Amazon now)

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=books%20in%20german&sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-topnav-_-Results

[Cavesa]

secondhand book eshop with books in German,

I'm a little confused by the meaning of this sentence. Do you mean:

1. An online shop which sells physical books in German
2. An online shop which sells electronic books (epubs, mobi, etc)
3. A physical offline shop which sells electronic books (epubs, mobi, etc)

Anyway, if you're looking for physical books, in German, you could try AbeBooks (Although I think they are owned by Amazon now)

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=books%20in%20german&sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-topnav-_-Results

Primarily A, an online shop that sells physical books in German and sends them abroad (one located in Germany or Austria is likely to be significantly cheaper than one in the Switzerland. Books are overall really really expensive here)

B is fine too, I've found a few online, but haven't tried much, worried primarily about the stupid protection stuff (such as not being able to put the book in readlang)

C:nope, not sure how it would work. but overall, physical shops are a problem, as I live in a tiny town rather far from everything.

I'll try abebooks, thanks. With Amazon and second hand books, I had some bad experience years ago, probably time to retry.

[tiia]

Try medimops. I used them back in the days to get some books in Spanish, so you can try to find even non German books there. About shipping costs see here.

[DaveAgain]

Is there any tv show in Swiss German? Perhaps some more or less generic crime show? I think I heard of one or two, but haven't found it yet.

Der Bestatter?

Luc Conrad ist Bestatter aus Berufung. Trotzdem hilft der ehemalige Hauptkommissar der Polizei regelmässig bei der Aufklärung von Todesfällen.

---------
You might find the Looking for interesting Swiss German movies/tv shows thread helpful.