Smelling the coffee in 2023

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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:59 pm

Suzie wrote:I am so sorry to read about your problems with the language school, and I fully understand how demotivating the whole situation is for you. I feel you. Isn't it annoying that such external factors have so much power over our motivation? Logic dictates that strong intrinsic motivation should not be susceptible to disruptions that easily. We should all be more resilient...


It is annoying, but I have always been an autodidact and very resilient. But even I have limits. Just this once, I wanted help. Convinced also by those people (some of them on this forum), who praise teachers as also source of motivation and something that pushes them harder.

Just once, I tried to be humble and do it this way. And it has ended so badly.


This may be a ridiculous question, but don't you think it might be worth to gamble and take the risk to attempt a C1 Goethe exam this spring (March?) anyway without the help of the school? A while ago you mentioned that one great part of the C1 is the absence of basic grammar errors from A and B levels. From what I am reading, this is already something you have accomplished - you have become an incredibly strong B2 and solidified the underlying grammar. I am sure in some fields (such as medicine/science) you already have advanced vocabulary. And I would guess there is much advanced learning material out there to specifically prepare for the exam. You are an extremely experienced learner and have mastered so much. Plus, you know what examiners need. If anyone would succeed in such a crazy mission during a few weeks time, it is you - I believe that very strongly!

Anyway, all the best for your meeting with the school!

Thanks for the compliments, but it looks like I am unconsciously making a much better impression of my skills than the reality.

Nope, this wouldn't be a gamble but just a waste of money
-I am not C1. Not by far. I let this situation get me out of my normal pace. I am a solid B2 slooooowly crawling towards C1
-nope, I am not as errorfree as needed, especially in writing
-nope, I don't have any medicine vocabulary. Where would I have gotten it? I work in French, I read scientific articles in either French or English. I have several books in German but no time to read them at all.
-yes, there are tons of materials to prepare for the exam, once you are overall C1. It is worthless to just to mock exams, if you don't have the solid enough base for it, it is a waste of (limited) material, that won't be new again, once I am really ready to use it.

And I don't want to waste my time this way, I am still looking for my next job and that's the priority for the next few months. I am a bit torn.
...............

To sum up the meeting:

-they are good businessmen (too bad for me), so no refund really discussed (in spite of mistakes clearly admitted by the school, especially the explanations before the contract), no extra classes. I can let the money go to my husband's learning, but I really hope he won't need any extra months.
-yes, they'll look for a way to make this work with more than one teacher, for the planning
-the goal will be two hours per week
-we also cleared up the goals. I paid, because I needed German fast. Their "most students cannot go that fast" was clearly explained as not pertinent too. But it is too late. This sort of communication should have happened in early November.
-at the end of my prepaid hours, I will probably "need" 10-12 more, by my teacher's estimate. Finally an estimate! Well, the decision whether to pay this much money will be at the end of prepaid hours, so I have time to look for cheaper alternatives (just on my own, or someone much chearper on Italki)

So, let's hope this works for the next 8 hours, and we'll see. As a cheaper option, I can look even at the expensive Italki teachers. And self study is the necessary base of course. But I really wish there was an Italki like thing, but just for professional writing corrections of longer texts. Too bad it doesn't exist and probably never will. This I would love to pay for.
.............

A side note:hard to study, I am ill again. Many of us are.
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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:27 pm

Finally moving slowly forward from the dead point:

-Started watching a netflix show "You" in German. With English subtitles that I manage to mostly not watch, I will soon get to just German and rid of subtitles. Either in this show, or I'll switch to something else, because I am not sure yet, whether I like it. It is great for a language learner, I'd say, as it is a lot about normal lives (from stalker's point of view), no clue where it will lead.

-Finally opened some resources again, just briefly. The total discouragement is hopefully gone.

-4 extra expensive classes planned in the agenda. Good. I'll try to profit from them as much as possible, and then I'll see.

I have a piece of good news that puts my mind more at ease. I got a job. It is not a superjob, nor the job of my dreams. But out of the available options (narrowed by my failure to get to C1 German in time), it is a good one. One in the right direction, with very good formation included, and with the necessary key words that will be added on my CV. And located in the middle of nowhere, but still reachable by car from a city in (or around of) which we could find an appartment. I also appreciated how fast they reacted and that even the boss was present at the interview, not like some of the hospitals that turn the application and selection process into a kafkesque maze.

The job interviews are a nightmare in any language, but I am finally starting to get the hang of it. Some usual horrible questions are pretty generic and I have already failed enough times to find some better answers, some are a bit specific for medicine or even for a particular hospital and boss. I was rather well prepared, thanks ot a colleague, who had been interviewed there before and gave me a tip or two. Of course I was exasperated five hours later, when I suddenly knew much better answers to some of the worse questions :-D

If this goes well and a contract is signed, I can breath more freely again, including more calmly learning and preparing my German for the future projects.
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby tiia » Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:24 pm

Congrats!
Is that job then still in the French speaking part of Switzerland? And for how long that contract will be?
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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:55 pm

tiia wrote:Congrats!Is that job then still in the French speaking part of Switzerland? And for how long that contract will be?


Thank you!

It's in one of the more bilingual cantons, but a primarily French speaking hospital! A year.
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby MaggieMae » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:30 pm

My dear Cavesa, I wish I'd seen this sooner! I had the EXACT SAME problems as soon as I hit C1. It really is a huge problem.

As for the teacher who said C1 in 3 months is impossible, I very nearly succeeded at just that. Had I taken TELC instead of Goethe Institut, I likely would've, I was just missing 2 points. If you don't have to take GI, I'd seriously suggest TELC C1 instead. I'm pretty sure TELC also has a medical version, though I have no experience with it specifically.

It really is hard to stay motivated, especially when it's something you HAVE to do instead of something you WANT to do. Finding a good teacher who understands intensive learners is hard. Super hard. I got lucky and found one in Schaffhausen. Feel free to PM me if you want details, to rant, complain about dumb Swiss laws, anything.

If you're looking for a new book, Sicher! by Hueber is what I learned well with. Aspekte Neu is a little more intensive, and focuses on the Goethe Prüfung, so that might work for you, too. Those two seem to be some of the best at C1, as far as I've heard. Grammatik Aktiv has been suggested by every single teacher I've ever had, so I was glad to hear you were working with that. If you're looking for a vocabulary book, Lextra - Lernwörterbuch Grund- und Aufbauwortschatz has the 1000 most often used words in German. There are two versions, though, one with English translations and one with Arabic, and they almost never tell you online which one you're ordering.

English ISBN: 978-3-589-01559-7
Arabic ISBN: 978-3-589-25802-4

I hate how it's smooth sailing through B2, but the instant you need to cram C1, there's nothing. Viel Erfolg! Let me know if I can help in any way.
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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:38 pm

Tv shows update: I don't like "You", I simply don't find it amusing or intringuing, just weird. I'll go back to German with Startrek.

MaggieMae wrote:My dear Cavesa, I wish I'd seen this sooner! I had the EXACT SAME problems as soon as I hit C1. It really is a huge problem.

As for the teacher who said C1 in 3 months is impossible, I very nearly succeeded at just that. Had I taken TELC instead of Goethe Institut, I likely would've, I was just missing 2 points. If you don't have to take GI, I'd seriously suggest TELC C1 instead. I'm pretty sure TELC also has a medical version, though I have no experience with it specifically.

It really is hard to stay motivated, especially when it's something you HAVE to do instead of something you WANT to do. Finding a good teacher who understands intensive learners is hard. Super hard. I got lucky and found one in Schaffhausen. Feel free to PM me if you want details, to rant, complain about dumb Swiss laws, anything.

If you're looking for a new book, Sicher! by Hueber is what I learned well with. Aspekte Neu is a little more intensive, and focuses on the Goethe Prüfung, so that might work for you, too. Those two seem to be some of the best at C1, as far as I've heard. Grammatik Aktiv has been suggested by every single teacher I've ever had, so I was glad to hear you were working with that. If you're looking for a vocabulary book, Lextra - Lernwörterbuch Grund- und Aufbauwortschatz has the 1000 most often used words in German. There are two versions, though, one with English translations and one with Arabic, and they almost never tell you online which one you're ordering.

English ISBN: 978-3-589-01559-7
Arabic ISBN: 978-3-589-25802-4

I hate how it's smooth sailing through B2, but the instant you need to cram C1, there's nothing. Viel Erfolg! Let me know if I can help in any way.


Thank you for your highly encouraging answer!

C1 in three months is no longer possible, and no longer the goal, I need to focus on other stuff. With that on mind, I am extremely slowly getting back to German.

I'll consider TELC, but anything is pretty much out of the question in the next two months, which is a bit sad, as I'll have different work schedules (overall better and more regular, but harder to take time off).

Yep, staying motivated is hard. In normal languages, B2 because the turning point, where everything becomes motivating, because I can finally access all the stuff I've wanted. In German, there is no such stuff, just jobs, and I didn't get a dream job now. Nothing else is really attractive about German for me.

Thanks for the offer, I will take you up on it and PM.

An intensive understanding teacher would be good. Actually, I found a few promissing ones on Italki. It is so hard to search for teachers on that platform! Their searching filters have absolutely nothing that really matters! Levels taught (especially filter "advanced only"), amount of students prepared for an exam, skills focused on. And even the price filtering is worthless, because they usually have 10 euro per sample lesson, and than anything for the normal one. I am not looking for 10 euro lessons, I just don't like this kind of marketing, using the filtering mechanism a bit dishonestly.

Nevertheless, there are four candidates, out of the dozen or so profiles I opened and a few more dozen that I didn't even open. I close anyone not really talking about exam preparation experience, I prefer those teaching only from B1 on (why don't these exist in other languages, when I look?). I also close anyone talking about "intuitive" learning, overusing "fun words", and otherwise not looking serious.

I've also directly asked about my contract resiliation, as I am not at all motivated to continue there anymore. No teacher/school is worth 120 franks per hour (the original classes were individual too, and like 40 per hour). That's four hours of my work in brutto (and not counting overtime) and I am a doctor.

So, if you know an already proven competent teacher, I would be excited to get contact. I am pretty sure they won't be more expensive. :-D

I have Sicher in my bookshelf, I planned to use it before I started with Erkundungen. It looks good, even though much lighter overall than Erkundungen. If I have time now to plan further steps in my career, I can use both series. Aspekte: I've seen it. No clue why, but the book was off putting to me. No idea why, it is not logical :-D

Lextra is nice but too light, 1000 words are not gonna help at this point. I've started using Vocabulaire Allemand, published by Le Robert et Nathan, which covers 20000 words. Let's see whether I burn out :-D

It's true that B2 was comparatively smooth sailing, once I really started learning systematically and with very heavy focus on grammar. Now, it all just feels weird. And nothing makes much sense, nothing feels like progress, as I am missing the strong support of tons of exposure, that I usually have in my languages at this point.
..........

I need to sign up for the twitter bot on super challenge, and put there all the already done stuff, and to continue.

And to return slowly to Italian, that I've neglected for German.
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby MaggieMae » Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:26 am

Cavesa wrote:I have Sicher in my bookshelf, I planned to use it before I started with Erkundungen. It looks good, even though much lighter overall than Erkundungen. If I have time now to plan further steps in my career, I can use both series. Aspekte: I've seen it. No clue why, but the book was off putting to me. No idea why, it is not logical :-D


Aspekte Neu is really dry and boring for me. :lol: Between Erkundugen and Sicher, you still have a really good arsenal there. You're absolutely right, Sicher is lighter overall than Erkundugen. I had, however, already used the Schritte Plus books up through B1 (same publisher), and the format and style was a comfort, especially as they switched us to Aspekte Neu for B2. THAT was jarring.

Cavesa wrote:It's true that B2 was comparatively smooth sailing, once I really started learning systematically and with very heavy focus on grammar. Now, it all just feels weird. And nothing makes much sense, nothing feels like progress, as I am missing the strong support of tons of exposure, that I usually have in my languages at this point.


100% this! This is actually why I picked up Mandarin in the first place. I was so discouraged from failing my first C1 test (which also caused me to find this forum), had a falling out with one of the Goethe Institut teachers (for most of the exact same reasons you're having problems with your language school) and I just needed to feel like I could make progress in learning somehow. It was, without a doubt, my absolute lowest point in my German journey. But then I found my current German teacher and I found y'all, and y'all have really helped get me over this nightmare hurdle. I'm sorry it sounds like you're going through the same nightmare, but I swear that light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train. You've got this, too!

Taking a "break" from German and focusing on Italian for a while is likely a good choice, especially as you've got job changes, goal changes, lots of stuff happening right now. Lord knows I've been halfway ignoring German, other than for communication purposes, in favor of Mandarin and Schwiizerdütsch.

And you can always ask the locals to speak High German instead of Swiss German. I hated doing it at first, but it really helps. And if they try to switch to English on you (this used to happen to me all the time), just politely ask (in German) if they can speak High German with you instead. It's almost like an unwritten rule here, that the non-native speakers have the right to be spoken to in High German if requested. Granted, it also hinges upon the local's abilities in High German. :lol: Some of them gladly forgot as much as possible when they left school.
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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:49 pm

Thank you so much!

Well, I am not crazy enough to start Mandarin, but I admire you for it and totally see the logic!
Instead, I am gonna focus on both Italian and German, with the goal for this year being Italian C2 and German C1, and the goal in all my languages being medicine.

And thanks for the support, you've been one of the motivating elements now. I've finally started reading something in normal in German. A book I had tried ages ago but gave up on. It is easier now, but it wasn't that hard even before on Readlang (the fact this site has future again, that is really good news), but it is a bit more enjoyable now.

Echte Morde, a translated Charlaine Harris book. This author was one of the first I read in French and Spanish, so she will do in German as well. (Just a note for later use: 320 pages) I like her light style, she is a very good example of the light genres. Not dumb, well written (she knows the craft, unlike most in YA and similar genres), good ideas, and not taking herself overly seriously. This is not a Sookie Stackhouse novel, I am getting to know a new heroine. Again, tons of very useful intermediate language. Just the first few pages have tons of very good intermediate descriptions.

I am also reading in French: L'examen neurologique facile, a translation of a foreign book by Fuller. Last week, or the one before, I had several neuro cases and felt a desire to improve my examining and describing skills in this area again. Learning all that I need, even if I had the needed time with my workload, is like trying to herd cats. Always need more. You could argue this book (245 pages) is more like a BD, with quite a lot of pictures and not that dense pages. But I read every paragraph several times. I don't need a dictionary, but I am trying to really learn the content. It is intensive reading too :-D And I'll balance out the "low density of text on page" in the next book. Oh, and I didn't complete the previous book, I should.

The Super Challenge is really on! I will get back on track!!!

Oh, And my holidays started today. Nope, not going to the mountains (still at the end of illness), going home. It is much colder there. But I hope for warm welcomes by my family and friends. :-)
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby stell » Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:22 pm

Cavesa wrote:Echte Morde, a translated Charlaine Harris book. This author was one of the first I read in French and Spanish, so she will do in German as well. (Just a note for later use: 320 pages) I like her light style, she is a very good example of the light genres. Not dumb, well written (she knows the craft, unlike most in YA and similar genres), good ideas, and not taking herself overly seriously. This is not a Sookie Stackhouse novel, I am getting to know a new heroine. Again, tons of very useful intermediate language. Just the first few pages have tons of very good intermediate descriptions.
If you like the Sookie Stackhouse novels, you'll have books for years! I spent an entire summer reading that series, a few years before they made it into a TV show (which I've never watched). I gave up eventually because it just seemed never-ending. :lol: But it's a very fun, light series!
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Cavesa
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Re: Smelling the coffee in 2023

Postby Cavesa » Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:42 am

Good news, I am getting out of the language school. I lost my nerve today, when finishing homework and preparing to go there and waste another huge amount of money. As the whole plan (with intensive learning for C1 from December, when I had quite a lot of free time) crumbled, I am now wasting incredible amount of money and time on something, that cannot be a priority at this moment. I can no longer aspire to a C1 exam in March and a germanophone awesome job in May, so German needs to take a back seat and let me appartment hunt and prepare for the job I am really getting in May.

So, today, I lost my nerves and made a rather emotional call, to really clear up I want a refund. It helped. The last discussion was me sitting against two people, who of course want to convince the customer to keep paying as much as possible. And it was of course hard to find the right limit between assertive and likeable (always twice as hard for a woman, as the society doesn't really see the middle ground in our case). I was so not assertive that I even let them make me consider paying more!

This time, after a week of procrastination from German and tons of stress everytime I've gotten near the coursebook, it simply changed. I stopped caring about being likeable, I started considering paying one hour with a lawyer (so that a lawyer can send a very official looking letter for example) and keep the rest, instead of paying for average language classes.

I am confident I can get out. It is very sad, but one probably has to be clear and sort of annoying enough in order to succeed. The fact I was not explained three key things before signing (especially the price) is my main argument. They are not mentioned in the contract either, or even anywhere on the website.

It is a huge relief.

I will keep paying for my husband's classes, because that system until B2 works very well. It is the first thing that really works for him. He has finished A2! I am so proud and relieved. He is now working on getting to B1. If he needs anything extra, we'll be looking elsewhere, but the basic structure this school has for 0-B2 is very good. Too bad they were lying to me about the follow up.
......................

Now I have a new plan. German C1 is still in game in 2023, I just don't need it right now. And it is in game together with Italian, that I've been neglecting since my exam.

No huge weekly goals till June. Bare minimum of language learning will be ok, anything more will be wonderful.

The planned activities:
1.The Super Challenge. My school induced burn out got even as far as to make me nearly stop watching tv series in my languages. Time to find the pleasure in it again.
2.Slow progress through coursebooks in each language. Return to Nuovissimo Progetto Italiano, a few exercises per week (out loud and in writing) will be fine. And a relax with finishing DaF Kompakt (there is still vocab I haven't learnt and a ton of exercises), to cover a gap.
3.Finally more time for medicine studying and really profiting from all the value I am getting at work. A few pages of intensive reading/studying of any of my medical books (or an article) in any of my languages per day.

The long term plan to salvage my German burn out:after a few weeks or months of self study, then I will seek out professional teachers for rather specific things:
1.I will once again pay for Speechling, and get much stricter and better pronunciation training than in the language school. This time, I plan to mostly read my C1 content in the recordings, one sentence at a time, to sound more natural and improve my pronunciation. Especially in the long words and sentences.
2.I found a teacher on Italki, that offers writing corrections. Exactly the thing I had been looking for for ages. Like 20 euro per page. Much better than my current situation. I just need to figure out whether it is really the thing I want (=I send in the text whenever I want, and they send it back within some agreed time limit), or whether some annoying video calls planning is necessary.

And I was even recommended an Italian teacher doing such writing corrections (for a rather good price) on reddit. I will consider that later on, if I like the thing in German.
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