Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Where are you finding Il commissario Montalbano ??

It's on the RAI site, although region-locked and their player is awful, and other sources but unfortunately nothing free and legal that I know of. The BBC does broadcast them every so often and you can catch them on iPlayer for a couple of weeks afterwards, which is how I watched many of the ones in the last few years.


Italian

Plenty input: more Lezioni di musica, a couple of unspectacular films from Prime and Netflix (L'amore non basta, a romantic comedy that I couldn't make head nor tail of, and Benvenuto Presidente, predictable political comedy), caught some of Sanremo last night, and continued "Sulla strada giusta". So far it's a nice enough book and it's good to see that the whole digital nomad thing worked out for someone; I found it awful when I tried it, but that was partly because I did it badly by moving around too much and working for a relatively inflexible company. Reading it is making me want to travel again, at least for a short time, and apply the lessons learned... Not any time soon though! I'm only halfway through the book though, so I'll be curious to see his own conclusions from the whole experience.

Greek

The potential Greece trip is looking like it'll be in the autumn now. I'm still keeping up the study and slogging through Assimil, but as much as it pains a slight fanboy like me to say it, I'm concluding that Assimil Greek just isn't a great course. Too fast, too many new words per lesson, too much focus on descriptive rather than practical language, too insistent on following a storyline at the expense of good teaching, inadequate grammar explanation, badly-designed tests. It feels like it's made by one of those people you sometimes see on this forum, usually criticising perfectly good beginner courses, who is so experienced at language learning that they're completely out of touch with what it's like to be a genuine beginner and thinks that everyone should learn as quickly as they do. With the mess of the e-method on top of all that (I'm still planning to write a review, I've not forgotten!) I can't say I exactly look forward to my study sessions.

It still seems like the best of the bad lot of beginner-but-not-absolute-beginner Greek courses though, and it's giving much-needed structure to my learning, so I'm trying to stick to it and get my money's worth. I've abandoned the Luca translation method and am now just treating it as guided input, working through the passive wave as prescribed and not worrying too much about making mistakes in the quizzes.

[garyb]

Not updated here for a few weeks. When focusing on one language and slogging through a course in another, there's not really much to write about; I'm just getting on with the work.

Italian: I'm reading the Italian translation of Norwegian Wood by Haruki Murakami. I had been meaning to read Murakami for years, and since I was going to have to read it in translation anyway I thought why not in Italian? And I've gone off native-Italian books a bit since almost all the ones I've read in the last couple of years have been disappointing. Like with dubbed TV and film, the language of translated books can feel very standard - often unnaturally so - but for a foreigner aiming to speak in a standard even if unnatural way rather than try to blend into a certain region that's not a bad thing. I've read two thirds already and it's definitely an engaging and well-written book, even if in that weird category of "based in real life, so not fantasy, but still barely believable" that love stories tend to occupy. I suppose it's supposed to be a little surrealist, based on the author's reputation.

Greek: Assimil is still hard and I'm wondering if I should supplement it with something else or even pause it and come back to it later. I'm not sure there's anything else I can add in though. As much as I'd love to avoid it especially given their recent business and advertising practices, more Duolingo might be the most appropriate complementary material.

Spanish: A few months ago I spoke to a Spaniard on Conversation Exchange and we planned to meet up, then they stopped replying to messages just as we were sorting out the details. Nothing unusual, any language exchange veteran can tell you. Yesterday they wrote back again asking "why didn't we meet, was it my fault?"... Eh, yes?! But I understand that sometimes life gets in the way and maybe they're interested in pursuing it again. I've practically given up on Spanish by now, aside from listening to occasional podcasts - it really is destined to be my "on and off" language - but I'd be open to doing a bit again if I had an opportunity to speak it sometimes. Based on what's happened so far, I suspect that even if this exchange does happen it will probably be short-lived!

I've also made a couple of attempts to revive the French exchange in the last couple of months, even just as an occasional thing, but it's just seeming dead in the water.

[garyb]

I've had a few Italian conversations in the last week. A couple on Skype which as usual were made more difficult by connection quality; I'm surprised that in this day and age we still don't have the technology for decent-quality video calls. Then last night I went to a film screening (Si Può Fare) organised by the Italian meetup group; the film was decent, but the atmosphere was a little strange as I hadn't been to that group's events in years. They all knew each other already and they were mostly Italians, so it was quite hard to converse with them (mainly for non-linguistic reasons, although the foreign language never helps!), plus I was very tired so far from my social or linguistic peak.

They were nice enough people, and even if a couple of them did insist on using English with me it felt like their intentions were good, but I just wasn't in the mood for trying to break into a new group. I'm past the stage in my life where I care about the validation of getting in with the cool crowd, and I already have a satisfying social life even if using my languages in it a bit more wouldn't be bad. It made me realise that I've decidedly grown out of the phase of wanting to hang out with Italians just because they're Italian, which is very positive.

I'm still feeling frustrated with my conversational ability, and this recent focus on Italian doesn't seem to be bearing much fruit, but it's early days. I'm still struggling to express many things, forgetting words and expressions, and making the same little basic mistakes. It doesn't feel like my speaking has advanced significantly in the last few years, but I guess that's just how the "advanced" level is, if I can even call it that; I only feel justified in using that label because my understanding is great and I know the grammar, but those are the easy parts.

There's just this feeling of "how much more do I need before I'm finally fluent? How many more thousands of hours?". I've been learning this language for the best part of a decade now and feel like I've done everything right: by now I've listened to a good few thousand hours; I've read 71 books in Italian according to Goodreads plus who knows how much online material; my listening and reading have been at at least C1 level for most of these years and my writing's not bad either; I write and text-chat a few days per week; I've taken lessons now and then; I've been to Italy various times including a stay of a several months; and I've had various periods in my life where I conversed in Italian most days. I can chat for hours, but with no real degree of fluidity or precision, and I struggle as soon as the conversation goes into depth on any subject.

I have of course been spending far less time on languages and put less effort into pursuing conversation opportunities in the last couple of years so I shouldn't be too surprised at slow progress, but it's not as if I've stopped. I've still done something in the language almost every day.

I'm not losing motivation though, as much as it's making me question whether the time could be spent on more rewarding pursuits, and I suppose this is just a realistic portrait of how learning a language in one's spare time goes. Maybe I'm focusing too much on the negatives when overall my Italian is pretty good; I'm not denying that, but it was also pretty good five years ago... I also have similar feelings at times in other things I do, especially music, so it's just a part of learning the kind of skill that takes a lifetime to master.

It does however make the prospect trying to take another language to a high level seem rather overwhelming, both in terms of time required and taking that time away from Italian, which would be another nail in the coffin for my Spanish... But I'm not going to say no to this potential exchange, especially after spending the whole of last year complaining about never having an opportunity to speak it. Plus a friend of mine has just been to Andalusia and his accounts have given me a lot of nostalgia and reignited my interest in Spain and Spanish. I'm supposed to meet the exchange partner tonight so if that goes ahead I'll report back. I have added in a bit more Spanish input in the last week to try to get me thinking in it again.

I've long abandoned my original goal of C-level Spanish, but I'd still like to get to a proper B2-ish level and be more comfortable conversing. There's still the part of me that thinks "if I do something, I want to do it properly" and hates the idea of being an eternal intermediate.

As for Greek, I'm almost halfway through Assimil, where the active wave begins. That's the one part I still need to experience before I can write a complete e-method review. I've been spending a bit more time reviewing the basics too, continuing to read the Language Transfer transcript and do some DuoLingo.

Given all that, I'm kinda glad the French exchange is dead! One less thing to think about.

[garyb]

The Spanish exchange went ahead, and it really wasn't bad! Obviously my Spanish hasn't improved since I last spoke it, given that I've done almost no work on it since, but it doesn't feel like it's got any worse either and conversing in it came to me quite naturally. No noticeable interference from Italian either, which had been a concern because of my recent focus on it. The little bit of input in the last few days seemed to be enough to get me into the flow again; I can't say how necessary it really was as I might've been just fine without, but I'm sure it helped at least with confidence.

Considering my rant about Italian yesterday, I suppose it's all relative. My Spanish studies have been inconsistent and I've never kidded myself that I'm beyond an intermediate level, so I'm happy just managing to converse. With Italian, on the other hand, I've been very consistent over the years and poured many more hours into it, and "just" managing to converse after all that investment feels disappointing.

Anyway this doesn't change my plans much. I'll keep putting time into Italian, hoping it's not completely in vain and the input preachers are right that you just need enough hours (and quality), and do a little Spanish now and then to keep it up.

[garyb]

I've felt a bit more enthusiasm for my "other" languages again recently so I've been riding the wave. I'm doing Greek Assimil and DuoLingo most days, and finding that they do complement each other in a certain sense: doing each one makes the other feel easier and more approachable. I suppose it's just more exposure to the language and more reminders of the basics. I've still not internalised a lot of the basic vocabulary, conjugations, and declensions, so I'm focusing on the Duo exercises for these rather than trying to push into much new material.

Assimil has got a bit more interesting, with a few lessons about food, but overall still feels far too fast and advanced. I'd like to spend more time revising previous lessons, but the e-method format makes that a bit painful compared to flicking through a book. I've also started the active wave now, which to my surprise is based on speaking: the app gives you the French sentences and asks you to record yourself saying them in Greek and then listen to the native recording for comparison. In theory at least; I can't find the right button to listen to it. I've always done the active wave as a writing exercise in previous Assimil courses, but can't remember if that was what they prescribed or it was my decision. Maybe they just wanted to tick a marketing box and say that their course addresses speaking.

I finally tried the newer Spanish exchange meetup last night. There was not a native Spanish speaker in sight. Just a few learners who seemed to be intermediate, similar level to mine, although with spectacularly bad pronunciation. I'm hesitant to criticise because I struggle with pronunciation myself, but at least I try! You won't hear me consistently pronouncing the Spanish I and V like the English ones, or putting the stress on the wrong syllable in every other word... I suppose that, much like with English, one can pronunce Spanish pretty badly and still be understood so many learners see no need to make the effort. We just spoke mostly in English and played a few word games: a pleasant evening, but hardly a productive one and my Spanish would've benefited far more from staying home and watching a film.

They assured me that there are usually at least a few native speakers there, but the weather had likely put them off that time. I'll take their word for it, as the weather was rather awful and expecting Spaniards to go out in it was a schoolboy error on my part. Even with native speakers though, these events aren't always the best since you hear as much incorrect as correct language, but I thought it could be a way to get out and meet people as well as practising Spanish since my social life's pretty quiet these days. I'll probably give it another chance on a nicer day just to get a better feel for it, but keep considering whether it's really worth my time.

In Italian I've started reading Il nome della rosa by Umberto Eco, as a kind of reward for having finished a few more "useful" books. It's not going to help me speak better, but it's one of the most famous novels in the language and I feel like by this point in my journey I should know it. Not sure what to think just yet; some say it's a work of genius and others say it's just an amateurish mystery story used as vehicle for the author to show off his knowledge about the Middle Ages, and so far it looks like it could go either way. There's a reasonable bit of old-fashioned language that's not in my Kindle dictionary, but most of it is easy to guess from similarity to other words and context. There are also quite a few Latin sentences and it's fun to try to figure them out - I suppose it's from a country where studying Latin at school is still somewhat common. Overall it's more approachable than I worried it might be.

[Cavesa]

Yes, expecting the Spaniards in bad weather (except for the Asturians, those are used to it, great people) is a bit unrealistic.

Il nome della rosa is awesome! Do you have the full first version, or the second one, adapted to the modern and less educated general public disliking Latin?

others say it's just an amateurish mystery story used as vehicle for the author to show off his knowledge about the Middle Ages

Is that intended as an offence? it is a great mystery story, one of the best I've read. And I see nothing wrong about showing off one's knowledge about the Middle Ages. That's what I was reading the book for. The word amateurish could be taken for it's original meaning here, Eco really seems to love that historical period.

But I am looking forward to reading your opinion, once you decide which camp to join

[garyb]

Il nome della rosa is awesome! Do you have the full first version, or the second one, adapted to the modern and less educated general public disliking Latin?

others say it's just an amateurish mystery story used as vehicle for the author to show off his knowledge about the Middle Ages

Is that intended as an offence? it is a great mystery story, one of the best I've read. And I see nothing wrong about showing off one's knowledge about the Middle Ages. That's what I was reading the book for. The word amateurish could be taken for it's original meaning here, Eco really seems to love that historical period.

But I am looking forward to reading your opinion, once you decide which camp to join

Just quoting others' opinions, not mine! I didn't know there were different versions, but mine has plenty Latin. Personally I'm enjoying it but I wouldn't really call it gripping, but maybe I'll get more into the story as I go on.

[StringerBell]

In Italian I've started reading Il nome della rosa by Umberto Eco, as a kind of reward for having finished a few more "useful" books. It's not going to help me speak better, but it's one of the most famous novels in the language and I feel like by this point in my journey I should know it. Not sure what to think just yet; some say it's a work of genius and others say it's just an amateurish mystery story used as vehicle for the author to show off his knowledge about the Middle Ages, and so far it looks like it could go either way. There's a reasonable bit of old-fashioned language that's not in my Kindle dictionary, but most of it is easy to guess from similarity to other words and context. There are also quite a few Latin sentences and it's fun to try to figure them out - I suppose it's from a country where studying Latin at school is still somewhat common. Overall it's more approachable than I worried it might be.

Out of curiosity, I asked my husband for his opinion about this book. He was very obsessed with literature and poetry for many years; he said that this book was his favorite modern novel. I asked him if he understood the parts in Latin, and he said of course, because he studied Latin in high school. I asked him how common it is to study Latin in high school, because I know that a lot of Italians don't know Latin; none of his family members or childhood friends studied Latin. This led to an hour discussion about Italy's extremely complicated high school system:

There are a ton of different kinds of high schools. If you go to some type of liceo (which is a high school that prepares you for going to a university), then you study Latin, but if you go to any of the other types of high schools, then likely you don't study Latin. There are high schools that teach you how to be a bartender/waiter, high schools that teach you how to work in agriculture/farming, high schools that teach you how to work on machines in factories, etc... When you're in 8th grade, you decide which kind of high school you want to go to based on what you're interested in (but often based on how much studying you want to do, because the non-liceo high schools are notoriously easy and don't require much studying/work)... the high school you go to determines if and/what kind of college you can later go to...which then determines your career. So basically, you have to choose your career path when you're 13.

Anyway...hopefully I didn't bore you with stuff you either already know or don't care about! I'm curious to see what you think of the book when you're done!

[garyb]

Out of curiosity, I asked my husband for his opinion about this book. He was very obsessed with literature and poetry for many years; he said that this book was his favorite modern novel. I asked him if he understood the parts in Latin, and he said of course, because he studied Latin in high school. I asked him how common it is to study Latin in high school, because I know that a lot of Italians don't know Latin; none of his family members or childhood friends studied Latin. This led to an hour discussion about Italy's extremely complicated high school system:

There are a ton of different kinds of high schools. If you go to some type of liceo (which is a high school that prepares you for going to a university), then you study Latin, but if you go to any of the other types of high schools, then likely you don't study Latin. There are high schools that teach you how to be a bartender/waiter, high schools that teach you how to work in agriculture/farming, high schools that teach you how to work on machines in factories, etc... When you're in 8th grade, you decide which kind of high school you want to go to based on what you're interested in (but often based on how much studying you want to do, because the non-liceo high schools are notoriously easy and don't require much studying/work)... the high school you go to determines if and/what kind of college you can later go to...which then determines your career. So basically, you have to choose your career path when you're 13.

Anyway...hopefully I didn't bore you with stuff you either already know or don't care about! I'm curious to see what you think of the book when you're done!

Thanks for the contribution - Italy's school system is something that I've been curious about! Most of what I know about it is from watching teen movies/series and speaking with Italian friends. I used to think that the only choices were liceo classico and liceo scientifico, since they're the most well-known and most of the Italians I meet are quite intellectual types so have gone to one of them (hence my impression that studying Latin and Greek is "common" in Italy, which is perhaps an exaggeration); it's only recently that I've discovered there are many more types.

Something I admire about the Italian system is that there's far more emphasis on speaking, for example with presentations and oral exams, and as a result I find that Italian people (again, the ones I tend to meet at least) generally express themselves extremely well when they speak, even in casual conversations. There's a level of flow, word choice, precision, and even quick-wittedness that's rare among English speakers. At my school, presentations were a very rare and awkward affair that didn't count towards any grade, and the only oral exam was a short pre-memorised "conversation" if you took a modern language at so-called higher level. Speaking is one of these important life skills that school here simply ignores.

On the other hand though, having to choose your career path at 13 sounds horrible. A positive side about our system is that, throughout all of high school, taking a variety of subjects was not only possible but very much encouraged: in fact, the timetables were designed to make it very hard to specialise. I was able to study everything from maths to science to literature to French to music to woodwork, all the way from age 11 to 18. And this was at a basic comprehensive school; some of the fancier schools even offer subjects like economics and psychology.

[Ogrim]

I've read Il nome della rosa three times; first in Norwegian translation and twice in Italian, so as you can imagine I really like it. In the Norwegian version, the Latin quotes were kept, but with Norwegian translation added. Latin is only an optional subject in very few schools nowadays (and it's been like that for a long, long time, I did not have it as an option in school) - so you can really only study Latin to a high level at university.

This got me curious about how they've dealt with the Latin quotes in other language versions. I guess I need to check up some English or German translation of the book to find out.

I remember that the first time I read it, the first hundred pages or so were the hardest part to get through, with long historical descriptions. Then you get more "action" as the book advances. On my third reading of it, I took it slow and really enjoyed those historical parts. I guess you can read the book at different levels, as a pretentious crime novel or as an important historical novel about religion and faith in the Middle Ages. Then it is also in essence a book about books.