Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

I'd go with Assimil. Pod101 escalates too rashly between the levels, to the extent that I've put it on hold at the intermediate one after coming from pre-intermediate. It's as if they made a new set of dialogs with entirely new vocabulary/situations from the previous one. And I'm not really stuck at the pre-intermediate level and unable to tackle intermediate resources: I've been through 3 Assimils, 2 language transfers and most of what else's up there.

Assimil on the contrary moves on much like the ones for the Road languages do, compared to Norwegian and Indonesian which have too much vocabulary squeezed in.

Thanks for the feedback! I was already getting the feeling that the intermediate and advanced content wasn't really what I was looking for, at least not now. Some of the intermediate stuff ("Talk like a local: Upper Intermediate Greek" etc.) looks good but indeed a big jump up from the beginner level with not much in between. I'll probably try to milk the beginner courses as much as I can while my subscription is active, and go onto Assimil.

[garyb]

Assimil were doing a Black Friday sale on their e-methods (thanks to Arnaud for mentioning it in "Language Programmes - Offers, Sales and Discounts" because it wasn't very well publicised, not even on their own site!) so that pushed me to take the plunge and buy Le Grec for €40 instead of the normal €50. For half the price of the book+audio package it was hard to say no.

My experience of the e-method so far, however, is not very positive. The purchase process was a confusing mess and the software itself reminds me a little of bad 1990s educational CD-ROMs. I'll write a detailed review including screenshots in the "Language programs and resources" forum in a week or two once I've given it a fair chance and tried the Android version as well as the PC one; I was unable to find any proper reviews online so that'll be my contribution to the community. That review will also mention the concerns about licensing and availability time discussed in other threads on here. My notes so far:

- Download was not available immediately, although the confirmation email made it sound like it should have been. Instructions in email did not work (no download links in "My account" section of site, and "see key" link was broken).
- Licence key missing from email.
- Received email a day later, when I was getting worried and about to contact customer support, pointing to a completely different site (monachat.assimil.online) with a different code ("delivery code").
- Had to enter my email to get another code ("verification code") from this site. This took around 15 minutes to arrive.
- After choosing the Windows download, I still had to choose between Windows and Mac on the following page. Minor point but just adds to the general unprofessional feeling.
- File was small yet the download was very slow (56k type speeds).
- Once downloaded, had to create an account within the app - different account from the original one on Assimil site.
- Agreed to at least three different terms of service during this whole process.
- Windows app is quite slow (each screen takes a second or two to load). This is on my fairly high-performance laptop (i7 processor, 16GB RAM, solid state drive, and I run music production software in near-real-time with lots of tracks and effects). It's obviously built with one of these horribly slow cross-platform UI libraries like Spotify, Slack, etc.
- I have to sign in every time I run the app. No option to remember my details. (Note to self: need to check if it works offline, since this presumably authenticates with a remote service)
- If I accidentally select Google sign-in rather than email (easy to do as it's the first option), there's no way to go back and choose email. I need to quit and restart the application.
- If I go back to the "monachat" site, for example to download on another device, I need to enter email and password. This is a third account, separate from both the one on the main Assimil site and the one in the app itself, with the password defaulting to the delivery code.
- "Mystery meat" navigation icons in lessons, early 2000s band website style: buttons at the top of the screen with images that don't make their function clear and have no hover text.
- Impossible to copy and paste dialogues. There's a text selection cursor, but dragging it just swipes between screens rather than selecting text. This is a big black mark as it should have been one big advantage of the e-method over a book - being able to copy text into Anki etc. - and is in fact a step backwards because the MP3s supplied on the CD or USB drive in the physical pack have the lesson text embedded in them and copyable.
- L2 to L1 questions at end of lesson: If you choose to type answers rather than use multiple choice, it does not mark them automatically, but just shows your answer along with the correct one and asks if they match. Very obvious opportunity to take advantage of technology missed. The L1 to L2 ones, however, are automatically marked.
- It seems to make you work through the course “as prescribed”, so it might not be suitable if you like to use Assimil in a different way, but I’ll have to use it more to get a better idea of how flexible it is.


I still need to see how the "active wave" works, and whether it syncs progress between devices (I'd certainly hope so, given the need to sign in).

I love Assimil's courses but as a traditional publisher they seem quite behind when it comes to modern technology. The app development has clearly been outsourced, which will be one reason for the poor integration with their own site and purchase process. GreekPod101, while also far from perfect, feels light-years ahead in terms of user experience since it was built as an online resource from the ground up.

I did like the text of the "delivery code" email: Nous vous remercions pour votre achat et la confiance dont vous témoignez à notre égard. It has indeed been a bit of a leap of faith, and I like to think I'm taking one of the team as others will be able to learn from my experience.

Despite its faults, I consider the price quite reasonable and most of these problems were just initial headaches. Things should go more smoothly now that I've downloaded and installed the software. I'll need to spend more time with it before deciding whether the lower price makes it worthwhile in spite of the problems or I should've just paid the extra.

As for the course itself, the first few lessons feel very slow and easy as I expected since I'm not a complete beginner, but I'm hoping it'll pick up the pace after the first week or two. The lessons around halfway through, from the previews I've seen, look like they're at a good level.

[Cavesa]

Well, it looks like I knew damn well, why I didn't buy any e-method. I also didn't like their terms and conditions, I prefer to get a product for my money, not an option to open it for a limited amount of time, and with all sorts of protections against natural things like sharing the course within a family.

I totally agree these "details" make Assimil look very unprofessional. But on their defence: it is still normal and considered high tech and hypermodern to make people pay for a piracy protected scan of the book in a separate app with no functions at all. Yes, a thing that is just as functional as a pdf from a torrent and less functional than the actual paper book, since there are print restrictions. So compared to this, Assimil is awesome and a leader in the field.

And the publishers wonder, why people go for pirated copies so much. Nope, it is not just about the money. Hopefully, the piracy will keep spreading until the industry finally learns from it

So many missed opportunities, as you describe it. These days, with tools like SRS, Clozemaster, Kwiziq, Memcode, and many others, I find the prehistorical state of the most mainstream publishers rather disappointing. If an amateur can make a product with better functionality, why not the publisher, who could connect it with the best content and sell the combination of both?

[garyb]

I've tried the Android app for the Assimil e-method now... what a joke. I went through the same site (with delivery code) to download it, but it's saying it's a trial version with only the first seven lessons available, even after I log in with the same details as on the PC version. When I choose the "full version" option it sends me to a page to pay for the course... yes, the thing I've already paid for to access the download in the first place. Progress isn't synced between devices and it's just put me back at Lesson 1. I'll try contacting support to resolve the trial version thing, but all this will also go into my upcoming review, the short version of which is looking to be "just buy the damn book".

Format aside, I'm onto lesson 13 now. As expected the first week felt too slow and easy, although even at that there were a few new words: the start of the course has a definite nautical theme (boat, port, quai, deck, etc.), which seemed a strange choice at first but then I thought of island-hopping tourists! After the first dozen lessons it's already picked up the pace, even though the dialogues are still very short by Assimil standards: the genitive case and medio-passive verbs have been introduced, along with a few more verbs and nouns I hadn't encountered before. The speaking speed on recordings is more natural after the first week, although it feels rather over-enunciated compared to normal speech, like New French with Ease. Like other Assimils, I think it would be very hard-going for an absolute beginner; the slow first week just feels like their attempt at claiming to cater to everyone but it's as a "post-beginner" course that it shines.

Other updates: I've seen a few films!

There's a Greek film festival on and I went to see a screening of Happy Birthday, a drama from last year. It was the usual experience: I needed the subtitles to understand a lot of it, but the bits I did understand were great for hearing language in context. I'm starting to think that it's useful enough that I'd benefit from watching something every week or so as part of my learning routine. A whole film is probably overkill but maybe some Youtube stuff (Easy Greek etc.) or some TV if I can find anything.

In Spanish I saw Las leyes de la termodinámica, a romantic comedy that had the potential to be good fun especially with the physics theme but sadly fell into too many of the usual clichés. Also on Netflix I've started watching the series Elite; again the whole premise and plot feel a bit forced, but it seems engaging enough to keep me watching and feed me some quality colloquial Spain Spanish input.

My Italian modern film catch-up continued with La ragazza della nebbia, a decent thriller slightly let down by weak acting. Like every other film and series in this post, nothing spectacular but good enough for input and a bit of good old fashioned relaxation and escapism. It's based on a book which I might seek out as I've not read an Italian novel for months.

I'm finally nearing the end of the third and final Memorias de Idhún book. The trilogy has been once again enjoyable although nothing incredible, and several thousand pages of relatively simple Spanish. The second and third books feel a little less juvenile and more serious than the first. I've not really read any other YA fantasy in my life (unless Harry Potter counts...) or even much "proper" fantasy so I can't say whether it's good by the standards of the genre, but my impression is that it's quite middle-of-the-road.

I might have found a Spanish conversation solution: there's another exchange group organised through Facebook rather than Meetup that does weekly meetups, and judging by the past events the numbers seem slightly more favourable: one Spanish speaker to every two or three English speakers. Nothing like the "good old days" when the opposite was common, but by today's standards it's decent. No idea about the English speakers' levels, but it could be worth a try. I can't make it this week but maybe in a few weeks or in the new year.

I did meet up with an Italian friend a couple of days ago so had a nice long conversation in that. My level seems quite stable: not really improving but not getting worse either. Unlike with French, I don't really feel the need for a significant "warm-up" period to converse well. My level of input and my regular text conversations (twice a week or so) seem to be enough for maintenance.

[garyb]

Fell off the Greek wagon a bit. Busy week with gigs and music, and a bit of a loss of motivation. Assimil has not only "picked up" as hoped after the first two weeks, but become downright hard. Lessons are getting longer and full of new words and structures. I just need to follow their advice and simply keep putting in the work without trying too hard to learn everything, trusting that I'll assimilate it as I continue. My DuoLingo streak is also a distant memory. I've already accepted that even reaching an intermediate level in Greek is a long-term project and one that's not always going to be fun or easy, so it's just about staying consistent now that the motivation before and immediately after the visit to Greece has dissipated. I've been trying to get back on it since yesterday. Thinking about the annual Christmas phone call with my Greek relatives might motivate me a little.

Spanish and Italian: mostly TV and films. Continuing with Elite, which is full of slang that's not even in dictionaries although aside from that it's not too challenging to follow with Spanish subs. Started a new Italian series, Baby, another contrived story about teenagers at a school so watching both at once is perhaps a recipe for confusion. It's also good for keeping up with modern colloquial language though: again some of the slang is new to me. It's set in Rome but the level of Romanesco isn't excessive like in some other series and films.

I've had a consistent sore throat for over a month which I suspect is vocal chord strain or damage from too much speaking and singing with inefficient technique, so that's put me off any kind of speaking practice. Going to get it checked out next week...

[Random Review]

I've tried the Android app for the Assimil e-method now... what a joke. I went through the same site (with delivery code) to download it, but it's saying it's a trial version with only the first seven lessons available, even after I log in with the same details as on the PC version. When I choose the "full version" option it sends me to a page to pay for the course... yes, the thing I've already paid for to access the download in the first place. Progress isn't synced between devices and it's just put me back at Lesson 1. I'll try contacting support to resolve the trial version thing, but all this will also go into my upcoming review, the short version of which is looking to be "just buy the damn book".

Format aside, I'm onto lesson 13 now. As expected the first week felt too slow and easy, although even at that there were a few new words: the start of the course has a definite nautical theme (boat, port, quai, deck, etc.), which seemed a strange choice at first but then I thought of island-hopping tourists! After the first dozen lessons it's already picked up the pace, even though the dialogues are still very short by Assimil standards: the genitive case and medio-passive verbs have been introduced, along with a few more verbs and nouns I hadn't encountered before. The speaking speed on recordings is more natural after the first week, although it feels rather over-enunciated compared to normal speech, like New French with Ease. Like other Assimils, I think it would be very hard-going for an absolute beginner; the slow first week just feels like their attempt at claiming to cater to everyone but it's as a "post-beginner" course that it shines.

Other updates: I've seen a few films!

There's a Greek film festival on and I went to see a screening of Happy Birthday, a drama from last year. It was the usual experience: I needed the subtitles to understand a lot of it, but the bits I did understand were great for hearing language in context. I'm starting to think that it's useful enough that I'd benefit from watching something every week or so as part of my learning routine. A whole film is probably overkill but maybe some Youtube stuff (Easy Greek etc.) or some TV if I can find anything.

In Spanish I saw Las leyes de la termodinámica, a romantic comedy that had the potential to be good fun especially with the physics theme but sadly fell into too many of the usual clichés. Also on Netflix I've started watching the series Elite; again the whole premise and plot feel a bit forced, but it seems engaging enough to keep me watching and feed me some quality colloquial Spain Spanish input.

My Italian modern film catch-up continued with La ragazza della nebbia, a decent thriller slightly let down by weak acting. Like every other film and series in this post, nothing spectacular but good enough for input and a bit of good old fashioned relaxation and escapism. It's based on a book which I might seek out as I've not read an Italian novel for months.

I'm finally nearing the end of the third and final Memorias de Idhún book. The trilogy has been once again enjoyable although nothing incredible, and several thousand pages of relatively simple Spanish. The second and third books feel a little less juvenile and more serious than the first. I've not really read any other YA fantasy in my life (unless Harry Potter counts...) or even much "proper" fantasy so I can't say whether it's good by the standards of the genre, but my impression is that it's quite middle-of-the-road.

I might have found a Spanish conversation solution: there's another exchange group organised through Facebook rather than Meetup that does weekly meetups, and judging by the past events the numbers seem slightly more favourable: one Spanish speaker to every two or three English speakers. Nothing like the "good old days" when the opposite was common, but by today's standards it's decent. No idea about the English speakers' levels, but it could be worth a try. I can't make it this week but maybe in a few weeks or in the new year.

I did meet up with an Italian friend a couple of days ago so had a nice long conversation in that. My level seems quite stable: not really improving but not getting worse either. Unlike with French, I don't really feel the need for a significant "warm-up" period to converse well. My level of input and my regular text conversations (twice a week or so) seem to be enough for maintenance.

I haven't read this trilogy; but that sounds like a pretty accurate description of every Laura Gallego book I ever read.

[Cavesa]

Thanks for the warning, I was considering the Idhún Trilogy too. Now I am no longer taking it as an option, I'll buy something better. I'll keep waiting for more tips from you

[garyb]

Thanks for the warning, I was considering the Idhún Trilogy too. Now I am no longer taking it as an option, I'll buy something better. I'll keep waiting for more tips from you

You'll probably have to look elsewhere for fantasy recommendations! As I say it's not really my genre and I just chose Idhún because it was easy and enjoyable enough. I liked it overall, but even without being familiar with the genre I can say it's just not "stand-out" writing.

[garyb]

Inspired by zjones's similar struggles with Assimil Greek and decision to take it more slowly, I'm now just aiming for a lesson every second day and trying to do something else in Greek on the alternate days: revising LT or skimming GreekPod101 (should make the most of the last few weeks of my subscription!) or watching Easy Greek videos.

Some thoughts, which are almost an end-of-year wrap-up although for me it still feels far too early and I'll probably do another one more focused on my studies themselves at a more sensible time:

My free time's being absorbed yet more by music, with even less time to fit in languages, and the lack of routine over the upcoming holidays means this will likely only continue. At risk of repeating thoughts that I bring up periodically here, I'm realising more and more that as hobbies go music is bringing me and will continue to bring me far more joy than languages.

In my twenties, I became overwhelmed and demotivated in music because I felt I had so much to learn and improve and I didn't know where to start with it all. Languages, along with other things like excessive social life, were in a sense a distraction to avoid this. In the last few years however I've resolved it by taking a more structured approach and understanding the importance of a solid knowledge the basics - two lessons that my language studies have taught me - and that's helped me rediscover the passion.

With language study it's sort of the opposite. For years I was enthusiastic and it was my main hobby. Plateaus and negative experiences just pushed me to work harder and channel the frustration, especially from discouraging native speakers and situations where my level made me feel inadequate, into motivation to improve. I also romanticised the people and cultures that spoke my target languages, and learning them became a way of seeking their acceptance, much like trying to fit in with the "cool kids" at school even at the cost of being inauthentic. Those are things I've written about various times already so I don't want to keep repeating myself by going into the specifics.

I've now mostly overcome and grown out of these tendencies, leaving just the healthy motivations that got me into languages in the first place. That's one of the reasons for my shift away from frequent speaking practice and towards a lower-stress slower and more input-based strategy. More travel in the countries has also shown me that using these languages in their context is often just a tough swim against the tide that's met with resistance more often than encouragement.

From a less introspective and more external perspective, as I've said lately the opportunities to use my languages just aren't what they used to be, with far fewer native speakers of them in my social life. One upshot of this is that I've finally started Greek, a language that I have an actual family connection with, now that the others have lost personal relevance.

With all that I'm finding less justification to spend significant time on language study. As I say, my original motivation and curiosity is still there albeit now tempered by real-life experience, and I don't intend to stop. And I still want to pick up some German sooner or later, even if not anytime soon! But this year has been my slowest in language learning since I started, and I think things will continue this way unless there's some radical change in my life that would make a language become a major priority.

[garyb]

End of holidays and new year update...

As expected, I did very little language study over the holidays, and didn't visit the forum at all so am catching up today. The Greek routine in particular went out the window, with my intention of "one lesson every second day" becoming "every second week" and nothing in between apart from bits of Anki and Duolingo for a little revision Although I did get back into it yesterday, perhaps thanks to a burst of new year enthusiasm.

I'm still having similar thoughts to those described in my previous post and unsure of how much languages will be a part of my life this year. For the moment I've settled into a very slow-but-sure non-routine of mostly input from TV, films, and reading for my Romance languages. My language study in 2018 was more part-time than ever before and I think in 2019 it will be even more so, but never say never as situations can always change.

A vague end-of-year summary and ideas on how to proceed anyway:

Italian

I've been on a kind of low-advanced plateau all year, although I did speak a lot at home until my Italian flatmate moved out a few months ago. Between that, regular text chats, and a reasonable amount of input I'm quite sure I've maintained it and perhaps made a slight improvement. It's hard to tell since progress at this level is drops in an ocean. Overall I feel like I speak and understand pretty well but there are still many gaps in my knowledge.

Italian is still just about useful enough to me to justify continuing: I have a few Italian friends, there are still plenty parts of Italy I'd like to visit, and I simply enjoy the culture and media, at least from a distance: I now fully acknowledge that what I see in films etc. is often a romanticised version, and the less romantic sides sides like the widespread xenophobia put me off spending long periods in Italy.

I plan to just continue using it when I can, and maybe adding in a bit more intensive study to help fill in the gaps. I don't feel the need for any kind of routine, but I'm trying to get into the habit of looking out for and SRSing new words and expressions, and stay up to date with modern media to keep my knowledge fresh.

Spanish

Slow progress again but my listening comprehension is gradually improving. I'm definitely finding TV easier than I did a year ago. I took lessons with a good tutor for a couple of months to help with speaking, but didn't keep them up between being busy with other things, constantly increasing prices, and lack of motivation as I just don't have much use for the language anymore. Like I've said, I started learning it five or ten years too late as there's no longer a huge community of young Spanish-speakers in my city. Even when I do encounter them these days, it's usually not in a situation favourable for practise: their English is good (the Spaniards tend to speak fluently even if incorrectly, and the Latin Americans near-flawlessly) and there are non-Spanish speakers around. I'd still like to see Latin America and more of Spain, but I don't feel a strong pull towards them at this point in my life. As I've mentioned in recent posts, I'm considering trying language exchange events, but it kinda feels like putting the cart before the horse or one of these desperate attempts to inject passion into a dying relationship.

I'll just see how things go and whether my motivation changes. For now I'm just keeping it alive with input, trying to study new words and expressions as I encounter them like with Italian, and Kwiziq tests now and then to stay on top of grammar.

French

I brought my French back from the dead when I was contacted for an exchange; that hasn't really lasted but I have put some French input back into my rotation. Overall my production ability is fine but not as natural as it was when I actively studied the language.

Again I'll just continue with minimal maintenance unless things change.

Greek

I put some good effort into Greek before and immediately after my trip there, but it didn't really last. It's a damn difficult language. I'm past the absolute beginner stage and I'm proud of that, but my knowledge is still pretty basic and progress is arduous. I'd like to reach a somewhat conversational level, especially because of my family connections, but it's tough to stay motivated. The family thing is more a matter of principle than a practical one since we can communicate in English and even in Greece it's easy to get by with it, although obviously knowing the language would put me much more in touch with the culture - one that, unlike with my other languages, I have a genuine connection with - and enrich my experiences in the country.

I'd like to keep working through Assimil at least; I'm trying to find a balance where I'm making progress but it's not taking up too much of my free time, but with this language at this level that's probably like wanting to have my cake and eat it too and I might just have to decide between sacrificing music time or dropping the language.