Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby tarvos » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:13 pm

I have been doing some accent improvement things for my Spanish and what I've noticed is that these small details really matter when improving accents. For example, there are also different kinds of s sounds, the vocal quality of people's vowels may change, the tone and melodicity... I found Romanians to always sound a bit nasal when they spoke. Russian has a fairly gruff, monotone way of speaking. French has that euhh... shrug... kind of mentality about it. Scottish just sounds cool. Chinese people sound like they're ready to hack you into bits, Korean girls always have super wheee tones, etc.
3 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:57 am

These imaginative and metaphorical ideas can be quite useful, especially for things that you don't have much conscious control over. One of the ideas of the voice book I mentioned is that many of the muscles used for breathing and speaking work involuntarily, but by thinking about certain imagery you can control them. Like the idea of breathing air into your stomach or even pelvic floor - of course you can't literally do that, the lungs don't go that far down, but imagining it helps to breathe more deeply.

I'm also finding that when I improve some of the small details, others fall into place more naturally. When I try to focus my voice further forward in the mouth and position things in a certain way, it becomes easier to roll my Rs, pronounce vowels more fully and the U more correctly, avoid aspirating Ts and Ps, and even have better prosody. I'm not sure how much this is a physical thing (speech apparatus already being in an appropriate position, probably the case for the R at least) and how much is a mental effect of going into "Italian mode" (could be this for the prosody). Of course the important point is that these small details are all things I can already do individually, it's just about putting them into practice - it's not magically making me capable of things I couldn't physically do before.

My Italian seems back on track after that little blip over the holidays. Last night I had a chat with one of my Skype exchange buddies who is available again now, and as usual with him it was a good mix between friendly chat and more lesson-like technical/didactic discussion of the languages. Later on I even chatted in Italian with my flatmate and her friend (who speak much better English than I do Italian, as I mentioned at the end of my last log) and again there was a bit of language discussion as well as normal chat as they're language enthusiasts too. These conversations went better than other recent ones, I was finding it easier to express myself and joke around. As all of us intermediate/advanced learners know, ability and confidence can vary so much from one day to another, therefore you can't make conclusions about your level just from one or a few conversations. In some conversations I seem to be able to "tune in" to the tone and sense of humour and go along with it well, while in others it's hard to express myself and I feel like a learner rather than a speaker, and there are so many variables at play that I can only speculate about the reasons. I've been saying this for years yet I never seem to learn and accept it!
4 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:04 pm

I wish you a great year, Gary! And I am looking forward to further inspiration from your Spanish and Italian journey. After all, you have been one of the Mefistos that got me to study Italian actually :-D
2 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:08 pm

Thanks Cavesa, and the same to you. Hope you enjoy Italian! I saw you were looking for book recommendations; I can't think of anything right now that is good but not too difficult in the genres you've mentioned, it seems to always be one or the other, but if anything comes to mind I'll let you know.

Today, a little Italian entry, so I can justify the amount I've been writing on here recently.

Anche ieri sera ho potuto parlare italiano a casa. Ci sono due italiane nell'appartamento, devo approfittare della situazione finché dura! A quanto pare loro hanno finalmente capito che ho voglia di esercitarmi con l'italiano. Anche se comunicheremmo meglio in inglese, ce la caviamo bene in italiano ed è quello l'importante. Poi, all'inizio del mese prossimo, la mia coinquilina se ne andrà in vacanza per sei settimane. Ha deciso di subaffittare la stanza per quel periodo... a un'altra italiana! Infatti ha cercato di preferenza una persona italiana o spagnola perché io potessi praticare una lingua che studio, è stato gentilissimo da parte sua. Comunque anche se non avesse cercato appositamente, la maggior parte delle persone che cercano una stanza qui ormai sono italiane o spagnole. Almeno questa è stata la mia esperienza quando il mio coinquilino precedente se n'è andato e ho messo l'annuncio per trovarne un altro. Non so se quella parla bene l'inglese, ma siccome arriva dall'Italia e non vive già qui, sono ottimista ;). Abbiamo parlato con lei su Skype, ma la linea era disturbata e facevo fatica a capirla; a volte ho avuto bisogno che la mia coinquilina "traducesse" dall'italiano distorto all'italiano chiaro.

Yesterday too I was able to speak Italian at home. There are two Italians in the flat, I need to make the most of the situation while it lasts! Seems like they've finally understood that I want to practice my Italian. Even if we'd communicate better in English, we manage just fine in Italian and that's the important thing. Then, at the beginning of next month, my flatmate is going on holiday for six weeks. She's decided to sublet the room for that time... to another Italian girl! Indeed she looked for an Italian or Spanish person preferably so I could practice a language that I study, which was really kind of her. Anyway even if she hadn't looked deliberately, most people who're looking for a room here these days are Italian or Spanish. At least this was my experience when my previous flatmate left and I put up an ad to find another. I don't know if this girl speaks English well, but since she's coming from Italy and doesn't already live here, I'm optimistic ;). We spoke with her on Skype, but the line was bad and I struggled to understand; at times I needed my flatmate to "translate" from distorted Italian to clear Italian.

Dunque, se tutto va bene, avrò parecchie occasioni di parlare italiano nei prossimi mesi e per questo penso di concentrarmi su quello per ora; lo spagnolo può aspettare. Come ho spiegato all'inizio, voglio che i miei studi linguistici rispecchino la vita e non il contrario, quindi se l'italiano mi serve in questo periodo ne approfitto per studiarlo.

So, if all goes well, I'll have plenty opportunities to speak Italian in the next few months and because of that I'm thinking of concentrating on that for now; Spanish can wait. As I explained at the start, I want my studies to reflect life and not the opposite, so if Italian is useful in this period I'll take advantage and study it.
4 x

User avatar
Elenia
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:22 am
Location: London
Languages: English (N), Swedish (C1), French (Massively Atrophied) German (lowly beginner, somehow learnt to read)


Finnish?!
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=708
x 3280
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Elenia » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:02 pm

Glad that Italian is going well for you, and that you have such a supportive flatmate!
1 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:08 pm

Elenia wrote:Glad that Italian is going well for you, and that you have such a supportive flatmate!


Thanks! We still speak English more often than Italian, but as well as the difference in levels it's partly just a question of me not taking the initiative enough, as she's generally happy to help.

I was just thinking: I talked about how ability goes up and down, you speak well one day and feel like a beginner the next. Well, usefulness is just as variable. Literally a few days ago I was complaining that I didn't have much use for Italian any more and wasn't making progress, and now I've spoken it a few days in a row and there's a good chance I'll continue to use it regularly in the near future. So like for judging my level, it's silly to judge whether a language is useful to me based on just a few days or weeks. It also highlights that I shouldn't take the no-goals and "basing language study on life" ideas to their extreme, switching around my priorities based on what seems useful this day or week. There's still something to be said for longer-term intentions and focus.
5 x

Sarnek
Yellow Belt
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Rossano, Italy
Languages: Italian (N), English (Fluent), Swedish (Advanced-), German (Intermediate-)
x 73

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby Sarnek » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Good Luck with your 2016, garyb! I love the effort you're putting into improving your pronunciation of Italian and that stuff about voice seems very interesting indeed. I'm looking forward to hearing your progress :)
2 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:19 pm

Thanks Sarnek! Here's hoping that this attempt gives some lasting results and not just temporary ones.

Post-weekend update

I'm still managing to speak a little Italian most days. I've had enough conversation to not feel the need for the backup options of self-talk and tutoring. These do have their benefits and if I had more time I'd use them as complementary "supporting" methods, but for the moment I feel that what I'm doing is enough. Especially since my Skype exchange buddy is a tutor and my temporary flatmate is a language enthusiast (she speaks seven or so...) and enjoys explaining the finer points of Italian whenever I have questions, so there's been some "proper" learning as well as friendly chat.

Accent: I've not read any more of the book yet. I'm taking it slowly, giving myself time to put what I've learned so far into practice and let it sink in rather than doing too much too quickly. Well, that's my excuse for not finding the time! I am doing a few minutes of pronunciation practice most days and I think it's all becoming a bit more natural.

Very little Spanish recently. For now I'm quite happy focusing on one language; most of my spare time is going into music rather than language at the moment anyway. I mentioned in my previous log that I hoped that learning some Albéniz and Tárrega on guitar might help my Spanish, and I've decided to try the same approach for Italian with Ludovico Einaudi on piano. More seriously, the Spanish-language music thread looks like it could keep me busy. I've been working on a couple of Italian pieces for singing lessons; it can actually be easier to sing in Italian than English because of the simpler phonetics, and it's great practice for vowels. Some words like "vorrei" with its double R and diphthong can be awkward to sing, but making the effort to do so clearly and get every sound right is probably helpful for speaking too.

Media

I've mostly written about speaking so far, but I've not been neglecting input, especially during the holidays. I'm running out of decent Italian films to watch so I've re-watched a few that I enjoyed in the past. You always get more out of a second viewing, and some were a few years ago so I don't even remember them very well.

Italian:
- Re-watched Il meglio gioventù: six hours long but worth it, just treat it like a series and watch in a few sittings.
- Re-watched Io e te as it was on TV when I was home for the holidays.
- Watched Vacanze di natale. Italian people have always advised me to avoid this "cinepanettone" genre but I got curious because it was the season; now I see why, it wasn't even good in a bad way, I just found it quite boring aside from a few funny moments.
- Couple more Montalbano episodes.
- Started reading La donna della domenica, the prototypical Italian "giallo" novel, a few weeks ago. Then I made that first post of the new log and decided to de-prioritise reading, so I'm working through it slowly. Not bad so far, it has a lot of very realistic dialogue in both informal and formal registers (although also a lot of narration and description) and it's nice reading something set in Turin since I recently visited.
- Various YouTube stuff.

Spanish films:
- Jamón jamón: quite funny and an ironic look at Spanish culture.
- Los amantes pasajeros: silly and good fun comedy.
- Biutiful: About 45 minutes into this I realised I had seen it before! I think I missed the start the first time. Great film; the version I watched had hard-coded English subtitles and I also found Spanish ones so I got dual subs.

French:
- My copy of Céline's Voyage au bout du monde finally arrived. It's a book I've been wanting to read for a while. It's the best part of 500 pages, and these pages are very dense, with many lines of small text. Not started it properly yet but at a glance the language doesn't look too challenging. That's probably my French reading for 2016 sorted, especially since it's so low-priority.
- Saw a film on TV during the holidays, Après mai, about young political activists in the sixties and seventies. I enjoyed it, good story. Seemed quite challenging, I would have struggled a little without subtitles.
4 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:58 am

My good streak in Italian is continuing and I'm enjoying it while I can. I don't think it's accurate to judge my level based on a few good days, just like it's not accurate to judge it based on the bad days I had a couple of weeks ago, but it's still useful to have an idea of these upper and lower limits and to know what I'm capable of at my peak.

In the last few days I've felt that I'm expressing myself more easily and fluently than ever, but on the flip side I'm making more silly mistakes with things like gender and particles. Sometimes I'm aware I'm making them but sometimes I don't notice until they're pointed out and I'm like "...did I reeeeally just say 'il parte' instead of 'la parte'?!".

That just reflects an idea I've brought up before, that fluency and precision are at odds with each other and you have to find the right balance; I even said a month or two ago (and tutors agreed) that my speaking is quite precise and I just need to practise getting my ideas across more, so I suppose I'm getting what I wished for! These mistakes are annoying since they're basic things that I "should" be getting right by now, but they don't impede understanding; also, fluency and decent pronunciation tend to "hide" mistakes in terms of native speakers' perception.

This is probably typical of my level, where I speak quite well but not very well: if I speak more accurately it's to the detriment of speed and fluency and vice versa. I see it a lot in other learners too; I've attributed it to not enough focus on the basics in their studies, but it's probably also just the same idea of putting more importance on getting the words out than on getting them right. It even happens to an extent in one's native language: I speak less correct and careful English in a fast conversation at the pub, in which getting the message across quickly and without hesitation is key, than when I'm giving a presentation which will be more slow and accurate. I just see this as part of the learning process. On the path to speaking both fluently and accurately, it's natural to swing between the two extremes, improving each side at a time and moving towards combining and balancing them.

My Skype partner said that I "sounded Italian" aside from the little mistakes and some pronunciation bits: my U is still inconsistent and my vowels in general are a bit "narrow". Of course it's the massive exaggeration typical of Italians towards learners, but it's still positive feedback and gives me an idea of what to focus on.
6 x

garyb
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1572
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Languages: Native: English
Advanced: Italian, French
Intermediate: Spanish
Beginner: German, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1855
x 5992
Contact:

Re: Languages and Life: Gary's 2016 log (Italian, Spanish)

Postby garyb » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:22 am

I've been feeling a little burnt out on Italian in the last few days. Not at all in a negative way, it's just a little too much of a good thing and I kinda fancy a change. I certainly can't complain, but speaking opportunities just tend to be feast or famine, there's never a balance. When I can speak frequently I'm more motivated to work on other aspects of the language too, and can end up overdoing it. What I have been doing has been going well: a few interesting experiences with the psychological factors in language ability (speaking becomes more difficult in an awkward situation, during a heated argument about whether or not garlic should go in risotto, or when a mind-blowingly attractive native speaker suddenly shows up in the midst of all this) and I'm seeing improvements in my ability to imitate accents. I'm having some fun watching videos and repeating phrases after the speakers, which is great since accent improvement really just comes down to learning to imitate. The voice position and tone stuff is improving and intonation is the next thing I'd like to focus on.

For that change, some Spanish: I started watching El ministerio del tiempo. It ticks the boxes: it's from Spain, it's free and legal to watch online, it has quite accurate Spanish subtitles. It's sci-fi/history, not my usual thing but watchable enough. Even with subs it's a little difficult, fair bit of unknown vocab, and I'm just using my very old-fashioned method of pausing to look words up in the dictionary. I'm sure that people enjoy playing around with subs2srs etc., but it's not for me. My Spanish comprehension is still in a kind of limbo where radio, podcasts, and learning resources are too easy but most TV and film is too difficult. With the vast range of programmes available in Spanish I could spend forever trying to find the perfect "n+1" series, so I'd rather just choose something okay and stick with it. This one should do the job.

For French I'm not even doing the bare minimum to keep it alive. If I had to speak French now I'd be extremely rusty. I might remedy this with the second series of Les revenants which I've not gotten around to watching yet.
9 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Zomxilla and 2 guests