Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[Serpent]

I've seen plenty "españoliano" on the forum from people who are good at Spanish and so think they can pick up Italian quickly.

Just when I thought I might have finally reached basic fluency

[garyb]

Serpent: I don't think I've seen much of your Italian or Spanish so I can't really judge

My input-heavy weekend (which is probably nothing impressive for the massive input types, but for me it's a lot!):
- Some Giovane Montalbano - thanks to rdearman for pointing out that it's on iPlayer at the moment.
- Caos calmo - film starring Nanni Moretti on Italian Netflix, it's about the effects of the death of a family member, which seems to be Moretti's speciality.
- El Bola - Spanish film that I had been meaning to watch for years. Yet again, good Spanish subtitles, this seems like yet another way in which Spanish learners are spoilt.
- Small progress on my books. I'm halfway through La donna della domenica and still not much has really happened: as far as crime stories go it's definitely the deep analytical kind with gradual character development, rather than the kind full of action and clichés. To be honest I kinda prefer the latter less literary type, at least in a foreign language when I want something gripping that will keep me reading. But it's an interesting story and I think it'll be worth finishing. Voyage au bout de la nuit is the kind of book that seems easy yet I have to pay attention otherwise I end up half-reading it without really taking it in. There was one monologue with more challenging vocabulary.

Some output too, conversations with the temporary flatmate. My Italian wasn't at its best because of illness, more little mistakes than usual and I was struggling with the sore throat, but it was okay. Unfortunately things haven't gone as planned for her here and she's decided to return to Italy, at least for the moment. So I'll be living alone for the next few weeks at least, and if I want practice (and just social contact) I'm going to have to go out because it's not going to come to me! Need to give my voice a rest for now but once I'm better it might be time to hit the international meetups and also iTalki to look for a tutor again. Or like I said, do some more Spanish, all these films are making me want to speak it. Will see how things go and who I meet.

[garyb]

I was feeling a bit healthier so I had a very social weekend, although it turned out to be too much too soon. I went to an international meetup and a house party; managed to speak some Italian at both and a little Spanish too at the party. I met an extremely unfriendly and unhelpful Spanish speaker, just to remind you all that there are exceptions to all these generalisations I like to make. Refusing to believe that I knew any Spanish, refusing to speak to me in it, refusing to listen when I spoke it in a group. At risk of another generalisation, pretty much every time I've had problems with a Spanish speaker they've been from Catalonia. Maybe they're less keen and encouraging about Spanish because it's not really their language and culture.

That did motivate me more for Spanish, although I'm not sure whether it's the healthy type of motivation ("I had real opportunities to use it and that pushed me!") or the unhealthy type ("I want to prove that arsehole wrong!"). A bit of both I reckon. The unhealthy type is a mixed blessing, on one hand it took me to a high level in French but on the other hand I could have spent all that time working on something useful and fulfilling instead. I suppose Spanish is useful enough and I have enough healthy motivation that an occasional boost from bad experiences won't hurt.

My Spanish felt rusty but I'm not sure if that's from lack of work on productive skills or it was just my state and the situation. At my current level my speaking is okay if I warm up with a nice calm conversation, but here I was jumping in at the deep end at a noisy party in a group that included someone uncooperative. But it did encourage me to take a look at FSI. And so it begins: I did the first half of the first unit yesterday, on pronunciation. It's divided into units and each unit is about an hour long, split into two half-hour tapes. I could probably get through one or two of these per week, slowly but surely.

I also watched Mujeres al borde de un ataque de nervios, which was a good laugh. Strange situation with subtitles, the Spanish ones seemed to be a translation from Peninsular to Latin American and the English ones were very non-literal.

[garyb]

I've been ill yet again, so not much language practice. I've heard that another Italian temporary flatmate might move in, but I'll wait and see after the first one stayed four days and the second one didn't arrive at all. So it's mostly been input.

Spanish films: The Devil's Backbone (decent but kinda cheesy) and more Almodóvar with La mala educación.

Also done a little more FSI. The pronunciation stuff is good. I'm tempted to have another look at FSI Italian as part of my pronunciation improvement efforts, maybe after I finish the accents book. While it's universally considered an awful course, the first few lessons do have some good material on intonation. I worked through them when I first started Italian, but bad habits have set in since. Anyway I still have a sore throat so I'm trying to limit how much I use my voice each day and progress is slow on all of these things.

Italian: more Il giovane Montalbano, a crappy film on Netflix called Quell'estate, and various YouTube videos. I saw an interesting one on ItalianoAutomatico about being able to understand well but not speak well, and in addition to standard advice like more input and self-talk there was also a suggestion to watch/listen to the same things repeatedly rather than always consuming different sources. I think it's a good idea: I hardly ever watch the same thing more than once, but when I have it's helped to burn phrases into my brain. Could be worth re-watching videos like that a few times rather than always looking for new ones.

French reading: Voyage has gotten a bit more difficult and I admit that I wish I were reading an ebook rather than a paper copy, for the dictionary. A chapter set on a ship to Africa was particularly bad, with a lot of nautical terminology. It's still enjoyable enough though.

[garyb]

As I've said before it's important to be able to adapt your learning to your circumstances, so that's been on my mind in these last few days. I can't do much conversation or pronunciation work between the sore throat, lack of immediate opportunities to speak, and not being in the mood to go out and try to meet Italian and Spanish people. But on the other hand, it's an ideal time for input: in my current state I find it easy to sit down and pay attention on a film or series, whereas when I'm more healthy and energetic I can also be more restless and less focused. I've also had to take a couple of days off work, and the classic thing to do when off sick is to watch crappy TV and films, so I'm just doing it in other languages! When I am working, I'm going there by bus (cycling in zero degree weather probably wasn't helping my cold) and that gives me some reading time.

Italian: finished Il Giovane Montalbano season 2. It loved it even if it was silly at times. Next I'll move back onto regular Montalbano as I've still not seen the latest episodes, then maybe go back to the start as it's been literally years since I saw the earlier ones and it'll be different now that I understand better and know the characters. Also saw a comedy, Così è la vita, which I liked at first but it got strange towards the end. Been watching more Italiano Automatico videos, repeatedly per his suggestion, especially in the background while doing other things. Read a bit more of La donna della domenica: about 75% through now and I'm beginning to sort of understand who is who and what is going on. I'll be very curious to see the film afterwards, I wonder how they made a long and complicated story like this into a movie.

Spanish: branched out a bit with Matando Cabos (Mexico) and El secreto de sus ojos (Argentina). By absolute coincidence I also came across the expression "atando cabos" (tying up loose ends, or connecting the dots) very recently so I realised that that title is a play on words. Still using bilingual subs, but I'm finding myself looking more at the Spanish and less at the English which is progress. I find Argentinian easier to understand than Mexican: the latter seems to have tons of regional slang and expressions. Although that might just be a false impression based on my choices so far: the Mexican ones are more on the comedy side so could have more colloquial language compared to the more serious dramas from Argentina.

I've been doing a bit of italian and Spanish verb exercise most days with Conjuguemos. I love how simple and low-tech it is by modern standards: just verb conjugation exercises and no nonsense, no fancy stuff like Duolingo's points and streaks and skill levels that just demotivate you if you use it as an accessory rather than a main method. It does have a few bugs, for example with Italian it's a little sexist and it accepts "sei stato" but not "sei stata", but overall it's a useful tool to fill in a few spare minutes if I'm at the computer. It's made me realise that I still have a few weak points with Italian verbs, and also that input is helping me to pick up the Spanish ones. As always, input and study reinforce each other.

French: I watched a couple of videos on a YouTube channel called Linguisticae; I wasn't looking for French videos but they were in my suggestions and seemed interesting. The guy's French is quite clear and simple, and he talks about languages and linguistics, so it might be of interest to intermediate learners here. In reading, Céline's Voyage is now in New York, and I'm finding this part easier and more amusing.

And a couple of other things...

Next month looks like it will be very cultural in my city. At the cinema there's an Italian film festival and screenings of the Trois Couleurs trilogy, and at the theatre next week there's an Italian play. I hope I start feeling better soon! The Italian films are mostly quite late in weekday evenings so I don't think I'll catch many, but a few sound interesting: Non essere cattivo representing the "drugs, violence and Roman accents" subgenre, and a remastered version of Rocco e i suoi fratelli which I've already seen; it's good but long so not sure if I'll be up for it.

I've been thinking about travel as I'm feeling the need to get out of the city and see some sun. Maybe I've been watching too much Montalbano but Sicily is looking very appealing. So is the south of Spain, although I'm inclined to leave that until my Spanish is a bit better. I don't know anybody in either place, which means I'm flexible but also that I'd need to make more effort to get language practice and a local experience, although on the other hand the English level in these places is supposed to be lower than the areas I've visited so far.

Tonight I'll probably go to the international meetup. Even if I'm not feeling 100% healthy, I'm feeling the need for some social life and language practice. I've also heard from an Italian on Conversation Exchange who wants to meet up and might be in town this weekend, but I'll wait and see. Still no news on flatmates, Italian or otherwise. I'm also thinking about going to Spanish meetups when I'm healthier: they could be a nice way to ease myself into speaking and build more confidence, rather than jumping in at the deep end and trying to chat with people at parties like the one a couple of weeks ago. There's a weekly one very near my house and it tends to get a good number of native speakers, and at this point I'm not against speaking with other learners either.

[garyb]

As I'm getting back into social life, I'm noticing something: Italian is becoming "the new Spanish" in my city. A few years ago, you'd go out on the street or to parties and bars and hear Spanish everywhere, but these days Italian has decidedly taken over. Still plenty Spanish speakers here, of course, but they're less ubiquitous than before. I went to the international meetup and there were several dozen Italians and only one Spaniard as far as I could see/hear, and we didn't have a chance to speak. Also a couple of French people: one guy who was only interested in speaking to women and one woman who was only interested in speaking English, so walking clichés really . Then on Saturday I was out with mostly Italians. Sunday was a nice day so I went for a long walk in the park, and most of the groups of people there were speaking Italian. That evening I got in touch with one of my Skype contacts who I hadn't heard from for a while, and we ended up having a long call. So it was a weekend filled with practice.

On the flat front, a Sicilian is supposed to be moving in for a month or two in a couple of weeks. Interesting coincidence as I was just talking about Sicily! She's coming here to practise English, so we should be able to help each other with our languages. If it goes well I might get some useful info and even make contacts for travel. I won't speak too soon though, considering what's happened so far with one new flatmate only staying for a few days and the next not even turning up!

All this means that practising Spanish isn't quite as simple as I thought: the opportunities aren't coming to me as I thought they would, I need to go to them. But I can't complain as (1) it's a very easy problem to solve by getting off my arse and going to meetups and (2) it's great news for my Italian: regular speaking is crucial in order to keep making progress at my current level, and it feels like learning it has been a good investment after all. In Spanish I'm quite happy with the progress I'm making with input and study, so speaking is just an optional extra at this stage.

[kujichagulia]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying your log!

[garyb]

Thanks kujichagulia, glad somebody appreciates it!


La mia settimana culturale, fino adesso: (My cultural week, so far)

Mercoledì: sono andato a vedere "Tre colori - Film blu". Un bellissimo film. Me l'avevo già visto a casa qualche anno fa ma non ci avevo prestato abbastanza attenzione e non me lo ricordavo bene. Un peccato, visto che è un film pieno di simbologia che va guardato con attenzione. Quindi è stato geniale vederlo sul grande schermo. Dopo il film c'è stato anche un dibattito condotto da un professore di cinema dell'università, ed è stato molto interessante ascoltare i punti di vista di altre membri del pubblico e condividere i miei. Questo mi ha aiutato a capire meglio i temi e i messaggi del film. Dopo, avevo intenzione di andare al meetup spagnolo e/o a quello del Couchsurfing, però al cinema ho incontrato qualcuno che conoscevo e siamo andati a bere qualcosa con i suoi amici. Abbiamo passato una serata piacevole, meglio di un meetup dove non vado necessariamente d'accordo con tutti. Comunque, spero di poter andare alle proiezioni degli altri film della trilogia, e nel frattempo vorrei anche guardarmi il suo precursore, La doppia vita di Veronica.

Wednesday: I went to see "Three colours: Blue". An amazing film. I had already seen it at home a few years ago but I hadn't paid enough attention and I didn't remember it well. Shame, as it's a film full of symbology that has to be watched with attention. So it was great to see it on the big screen. After the film there was even a debate led by a film studies professor from the university, and it was very interesting listening to other audience members' points of view and sharing mine. This helped me to understand the film's themes and messages better. Afterwards, I was planning to go to the Spanish meetup and/or to the Couchsurfing one, but at the cinema I met someone I know and we went for a drink with their friends. We had a nice evening, better than a meetup where I don't necessarily get along with everybody. Anyway, I hope I'll be able to go to the screenings of the other films of the trilogy, and in the meantime I'd also like to watch its precursor, "La double vie de Véronique".

Giovedì: ho visto il spettacolo italiano al teatro, Non si paga, non si paga. È una commedia, una farsa con tanti battuti e slapstick, ma con anche un messaggio politico. Fu scritto durante la crisi degli anni settanta ma è altrettanto pertinente alla situazione odierna in Italia, e poi il regista ha adattato un po' la trama, cambiando i riferimenti politici e economici a quelli di oggi. Anche lì ho incontrato delle persone che conoscevo, degli italiani, e dopo la fine dello spettacolo abbiamo chiacchierato un po'.

Thursday: I saw the Italian play at the theatre, "Can't pay, won't pay". It's a comedy, a farce with lots of jokes and slapstick, but also with a political message. It was written during the crisis of the seventies but it is just as relevant to the present-day situation in Italy, and the director also adapted the story a bit, changing the political and economic references to those of today. I met some people I knew there as well, some Italians, and after the end of the play we chatted a bit.

Oggi: è l'inizio del festival di cinema italiano, e stasera andrò a vedere Non essere cattivo. In seguito forse andrò al meetup internazionale, o forse finirà come le altre serate, vedrò persone che conosco e farò qualcosa con loro. Anche domani c'è un film che mi piacerebbe vedere, Il ragazzo invisibile. Mi sono deciso a fare l'abbonamento al cinema indipendente dove presentano i film stranieri. L'ho già detto, quando vedo un film al cinema lo sfrutto meglio, presto più attenzione e preferisco l'esperienza. Anche dal punto di vista sociale è meglio. Poi con tutti i festival che ci sono, magari risparmierò con gli sconti sui biglietti e anche sul cibo e sui drink al bar.

Today: it's the beginning of the Italian film festival, and tonight I'll go to see "Don't be bad". After that I might go to the international meetup, or it might end up like the other evenings, I'll see people I know and do something with them. Tomorrow too there's a film that I'd like to see, "The invisible boy". I made up my mind to get the membership at the independent cinema where they show foreign films. I've already said it, when I see a film at the cinema I get more out of it, I pay more attention and I prefer the experience. It's also better from a social point of view. And with all the festivals that are on, I might even save some money with the discounts on tickets and also on food and drink at the bar.

UPDATE: There's also some interesting Spanish and Mexican stuff on at the cinema this month: Jamón Jamón, Después de Lucía, Cría Cuervos... That membership is definitely going to be worth it!

[garyb]

Decent weekend for input and for practice...

Italian films: Non essere cattivo was pretty much what I expected: decent story and lots of Roman dialect. Il ragazzo invisibile was a take on the superhero fantasy genre that's been popular in Hollywood for a while; not what I'd usually choose but I enjoyed it a lot and there was some novelty value since it's not the kind of thing you usually find in Italian cinema. I also watched Malèna on Netflix, and I wasn't sure what to think of it: strange mix of wartime drama, coming-of-age story, erotica, and social/political statements. It had English subtitles but they were a very, let's say, creative interpretation of the dialogue, which is a shame as the Sicilians were hard to understand at times.

Spanish: Back to Spain with some more Almodóvar films: Átame and Los abrazos rotos. Both not bad. Did a little FSI too. The conversation drills are a great idea, I wish I had done more work like that in my early Italian learning. I've also sneaked a little more Spanish into my routine, listening to some radio or podcasts in the morning while I eat and get dressed. That's one great thing about smartphones, you can get audio playing more quickly than with a computer and carry it with you to whatever room you're in.

I went to the international meetup, lots of Italians as usual, and also met some people from the meetup group at the cinema for Il ragazzo invisibile. I'm definitely seeing more consistency recently, both in opportunities to speak and in my speaking itself. I could have gone out on Saturday night with some Italians too, but I declined and got some much-needed sleep, which was the right decision. I also spoke French for a few minutes: too short and simple a conversation to make any conclusions about whether I still have a good level, but it flowed easily enough. Seems like if I don't think about it too much and just speak, it comes out fine.

[garyb]

Couple more bits and thoughts from this week:

- No more Italian film festival stuff yet, but I watched La terrazza at home. It's quite a good piss-take of Italian high society and pseudo-intellectuals; at times it felt like a satire of a Fellini film.

- Finished reading La donna della domenica. I have mixed feelings; it was one of these books that was obviously very smart and well-written, but it wasn't quite my thing.

- Saw Jamón Jamón at the cinema. I already saw it a few months ago, I'm sure I mentioned it earlier on my log, but as always it's good to re-watch something on the big screen. I did make the mistake of not eating before watching it, and after all the ham and tortillas in it I was starving.

I missed another Spanish meetup, as I was just tired. My approach to Spanish learning is decidedly laid-back: no routine; studying on-and-off and just doing it when I feel like it; mostly film and TV and not much formal study; speaking when the opportunity arises but not making much effort to find opportunities. It's quite different to what I've done for Italian: consistently studying pretty much every day for a few years, with a major focus on finding speaking opportunities and conversing whenever possible. My Italian approach was certainly efficient and got me quite conversational quite quickly, but my Spanish one is much less stressful, and it seems to be working. Of course this is with two related languages and a few years of learning experience under my belt; I'm not claiming that a proper beginner should take this laid-back approach.

I'm still undecided on the big debate of whether it's more effective to focus on speaking from early on or to focus on input first and save speaking for later, but the latter is certainly the more relaxed way. That's what suits me right now since I'm trying to take it easy in general and I don't have any urgent need to speak, yet speaking opportunities are available enough to keep me motivated. I'm still keen to have a conversation quite soon, just to get an idea of what my current level is and whether all this recent work is actually helping my speaking, but there's no rush.

Also on the subject of changing my mind about learning methods: I've thought for a while that at the beginner/intermediate stage, one should concentrate on spoken language, and reading should be left until a more advanced level. But now I'm questioning that: I quite fancy reading a Spanish book soon (Apocalipsis Z, no doubt) and I think it would help build my vocabulary and in turn boost my listening comprehension. With TV and films I'm still at the point where everyday conversation is easy but anything beyond that is hard. In French and Italian, I read from quite early on and it seemed to help, although especially with French it was a bit too far to the other side and I had to do a lot of work to make my listening "catch up" with my reading.

My main problem with reading is that books tend to have lots of vocabulary that isn't important, and as a beginner/intermediate learner it's hard to tell what is important and it's just a lot of noise to signal. But that be mitigated by choosing appropriate reading materials, like modern books with a lot of dialogue and everyday language, and by not attempting to learn every unknown word or expression, instead just looking them up, moving on, and letting the "natural SRS" of the book do its thing.

And conversely, with Italian I really feel that I need to focus on spoken language, and reading isn't helping much any more. Even at my quite advanced level, La donna della domenica was full of words that I didn't know and that I'm quite sure I don't need to know. If I want spoken language, I might as well get it in the pure form with the bonuses of pronunciation and non-verbal communication, since now it's less about understanding and more about improving my sense for when and how pieces of language are used.

So maybe the conclusion is that, for someone whose primary focus is spoken language, reading is most useful at intermediate level, at that stage where you can handle simple language but struggle with more complicated things. But like all my thoughts on learning, this is very subject to change.