Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Another week in Spain!

Switching to English: It's been happening to me more recently, which has been a bit frustrating. Especially in Córdoba. Then again that place, while beautiful and absolutely worth visiting, is a bit of a tourist trap in general. The staff in my hostel there were mostly quite rigid about not using Spanish with non-native speakers; I even saw a Russian guy who spoke excellent Spanish having the same problem with one of the receptionists, which I suppose is comforting! He just kept answering in Spanish, which is probably the best thing to do. In my case though, I can't really make a fuss because again in most cases the other person's English was good enough to justify it and I've said myself that I don't think that anyone below B2 really has the right to complain about switching. Once I'm a bit more confident and fluent then it might be fair to get annoyed. Perhaps part of the frustration is from having heard in the past that Andalucía was some kind of promised land where nobody speaks English; I knew that was an exaggeration but perhaps I still had unrealistic ideas. Maybe in smaller places English isn't widespread and I've just been on the main tourist circuit.

On the plus side, the sharing economy is great for language practice. I arrived in Seville today by ride-sharing (Blablacar is the most widely used service in Spain) and am staying in an AirBnB room. Drivers and hosts are usually very happy to speak Spanish! There was also a French couple in the car so I got to practise French too. There are many French travellers here which has given me a few more opportunities for short conversations like the one described in the last post. I'm hearing lots of Italian too but haven't had a chance to speak it yet.

I'd say that my French is suffering just as much as my Italian! Overall though, speaking three related languages at a decent level is just a very difficult thing to do so it's unsurprising that I'm having problems, especially while immersed in one of them. I think I'll get there eventually but it will take a very long time, since it's about not only learning each language but also learning to switch between them and keep them separate.

[Cavesa]

Switching to English: It's been happening to me more recently, which has been a bit frustrating. Especially in Córdoba. Then again that place, while beautiful and absolutely worth visiting, is a bit of a tourist trap in general. The staff in my hostel there were mostly quite rigid about not using Spanish with non-native speakers; I even saw a Russian guy who spoke excellent Spanish having the same problem with one of the receptionists, which I suppose is comforting! He just kept answering in Spanish, which is probably the best thing to do. In my case though, I can't really make a fuss because again in most cases the other person's English was good enough to justify it and I've said myself that I don't think that anyone below B2 really has the right to complain about switching. Once I'm a bit more confident and fluent then it might be fair to get annoyed. Perhaps part of the frustration is from having heard in the past that Andalucía was some kind of promised land where nobody speaks English; I knew that was an exaggeration but perhaps I still had unrealistic ideas. Maybe in smaller places English isn't widespread and I've just been on the main tourist circuit.

Sometimes, I am really glad not to be an English native or anywhere near that level

I had no trouble with Spaniards switching on me, when my passive skills were something like A2, and my passive skills were C1 for most Spanish natives, B1 for southern Spaniards. It depends on the area and situation. But Andalucía is a weird choice, as it is probably the most touristy region in Spain. Or perhaps the second after Barcelona and the coast around it. It is even more complicated, as Andalucians speaking Spanish are quite hard to understand, from my experience, it is really quite a non standard variant of Spanish. Perhaps they have given up on normal Spanish speaking foreigners understanding them? Hard to tell.
I don't think the level of "right to complain about switching" needs to be placed so high in general. It depends on the situation. Curiously, Germans don't switch on my Neandertalisch It surprised me.

I would agree smaller towns are the way to go, and regions with fewer adds in the travel agencies' catalogues. Cataluña and Andalucía are the most promoted worldwide, I dare to guess. Most touristy areas of Madrid are probably a problem too (I haven't visited Madrid yet). But no switching problems in Asturias, Castilla y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco from my experience. I guess Extremadura or Castilla la Mancha could be Spanish learner's paradise, but I have yet to try them out.

[garyb]

Sometimes, I am really glad not to be an English native or anywhere near that level

I had no trouble with Spaniards switching on me, when my passive skills were something like A2, and my passive skills were C1 for most Spanish natives, B1 for southern Spaniards. It depends on the area and situation. But Andalucía is a weird choice, as it is probably the most touristy region in Spain. Or perhaps the second after Barcelona and the coast around it. It is even more complicated, as Andalucians speaking Spanish are quite hard to understand, from my experience, it is really quite a non standard variant of Spanish. Perhaps they have given up on normal Spanish speaking foreigners understanding them? Hard to tell.
I don't think the level of "right to complain about switching" needs to be placed so high in general. It depends on the situation. Curiously, Germans don't switch on my Neandertalisch It surprised me.

I would agree smaller towns are the way to go, and regions with fewer adds in the travel agencies' catalogues. Cataluña and Andalucía are the most promoted worldwide, I dare to guess. Most touristy areas of Madrid are probably a problem too (I haven't visited Madrid yet). But no switching problems in Asturias, Castilla y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco from my experience. I guess Extremadura or Castilla la Mancha could be Spanish learner's paradise, but I have yet to try them out.

Yeah, it's super touristy here and everybody I meet is pretty much doing the same itinerary as me (albeit in reverse). I suppose I came mainly because I wanted to see Andalucía, with improving my Spanish being a secondary motivation. I agree that there are better choices for learning. I might come back and stay for a longer time in the future, and in that case I'll consider a less touristy area. I've not had too many problems understanding people here so far, although the Seville accent is a little trickier.

When I was in Madrid about 17 years ago, very few people spoke English, but it has probably changed a lot since then! I remember coming home after that week and how relieved I felt that I could communicate again... how things change

I think I need to do some accent work in Spanish (what's new?): there's the switching; a few times people haven't understood me when I had thought I had spoken quite clearly and correctly; and yesterday somebody commented that I "still sound really Scottish even when I say things in Spanish".

I also wonder if there's a simple way to "prove" to Spanish speakers that you have a decent knowledge of the language. In Italian, if you use the subjunctive (especially past subjunctive) correctly, most speakers suddenly think you're great at the language because "even many natives don't use it", but in Spanish using the subjunctive just means you're not absolutely clueless. Maybe there's another "cheat code" like that.

[Expugnator]

Thank you for the tip on Italian! Funny that I had the same impression myself, though not in real life, just through chatting.I chat regularly with two Italians and they started to answer in Italian once I got subjunctives right. Actually I'm definitely into past subjunctive because it's like in Portuguese Overall, I find italian subjunctive to be much richer than in French or Spanish (in the latter the -ara forms belong to what in Portuguese is an archaic synthetic pluscuamperfect).

[garyb]

A lot of switching going on in Seville too, but... It's Seville. I can't go to one of the most famous cities in Spain and then complain about it. And again it just depends on the person.

I'm still feeling a bit impatient with my Spanish learning; I'm progressing but the point where I can speak it well still seems so far away. I suppose that's normal though. I think "if only I could speak it like I speak Italian or French", but then even when I'm in Italy or France I tend to focus on the negative too. In a way I feel like the kind of immersion I'm in loses most of its benefits after a few weeks: I'm filling in the "everyday situation" gaps and now I'm not getting a whole lot more practice than I would back home. I could just as easily have conversations with natives several days per week, watch TV and films, and study FSI in Edinburgh. On the other hand, being surrounded by the language, hearing conversations and seeing signs all the time, surely counts for something! Again I don't want to be negative; it's just partly that this kind of immersion is limited (as I've said, to get more benefit I'd need to stay in one less touristy place for longer, make more social connections, and focus on the language more than sightseeing) and partly that I'm not quite at the level where immersion is most beneficial, which is when you already speak well but want to speak very well.

Input:

I finished watching Vis a vis last week. I can only repeat myself: the second series is watchable but nowhere near as good as the first. I've discovered that my Netflix subscription is useful again: here in Spain there's a good selection of Spanish and Latin American films and series, complete with Spanish subtitles. I've started watching Allí abajo on there - it seemed like an appropriate choice since I'm in Seville!

Very little time for reading.

[garyb]

A bit less switching in the last week... In the region of Cádiz (Cádiz, Algeciras, even Tarifa) I've finally come across quite a few waiters and bar staff who either don't speak English or are nice enough to not speak it with me. In fact the place I was staying in Cádiz was a residence for students at a Spanish school where they also let out a few rooms. I can think of worse places to study the language! This has however meant a bit of struggling on my part, especially with food-related vocabulary, but you can't have your cake and eat it! In one restaurant they gave me an almost-incomprehensible English menu that seemed to have been made with Google Translate. Normally I'm grateful for an English menu because I don't know the names of every kind of meat dish and seafood and vegetable (even in my stronger languages I always struggle with menus) but in this case I just had to laugh and find a Spanish one!

Despite this I feel like my Spanish has been getting worse! I'm currently staying with a friend's family and I'm finding it hard to converse and even understand at times. Phrases sound good in my head but they come out incorrect and terribly pronounced. However I suppose the fact that I'm seeing ups and downs rather than consistent improvement is something positive, it means I'm past the beginner stage (even if at times it doesn't feel like it!) and onto the Great Intermediate Plateau.

On being positive, I've been thinking about my experience here so far and some thoughts on how to make the most of being in the country even when you're in a touristy region and you're conversational but far from fluent:

The best is obviously already knowing people in the area: you'll speak the language, meet their friends, have conversations that go beyond the usual small-talk, and since you're with native speakers others will be far less likely to switch on you than if you were alone or with other non-natives. But obviously most of us don't have friends everywhere!

Hostels are a mixed bag, of course you meet people from all over the world which means mostly conversing in English, but in Spain you'll also meet many Latin Americans as well as speakers of French, German, and more. I've chatted with Argentinians, Colombians, Bolivians and Mexicans. Staff might also be willing to speak the language with you, but don't always bet on it.

AirBnB and BlaBlaCar: Every host and driver I've had so far has happily spoken to me in Spanish.

Couchsurfing: I've not done any actual surfing recently so can't comment on that. Most bigger places have meetups and language exchange gatherings ("intercambios") advertised on the site. These have been good for me; they tend to be gatherings of mostly locals and foreigners who live there, but visitors are also welcome. Just be aware that the Events section of the site doesn't work very well: often it says "no events found" but they show if you reload the page, or you might have to search by the place name in the local language ("Seville" gives no results but "Sevilla" shows events).

Obviously people in the CS community are more likely to speak English than typical locals, but they're also typically language enthusiasts themselves so are happy to help, and it's simply an easy way to meet people. The mobile app also has a Hangouts feature that you can use if you're visiting a place and have spare time, and want to go for a drink with somebody else in the same situation.

Making small-talk with service staff: This can depend a lot on the country you're in. In a country like France or Italy, where bar staff and waiters etc. just do their job and don't chit-chat with customers, you won't get very far. In Spain there's more leeway if the place is quiet, although it's not quite the (sometimes forced) friendliness you get in the UK or US.

This is for short stays. If I were staying for longer in a place, I'd focus more on connecting with people with common interests.

[garyb]

In the last couple of weeks I went back to Málaga because I had family visiting there, and I also got a bit ill that week, so didn't get much done. I then decided to come to Barcelona for a week, where I am now, and next week I'm leaving Spain and heading for Sardinia!

I was starting to lose confidence with Spanish, between all the switching and lack of decent opportunities, but Barcelona has helped me regain some. I'll again go against conventional wisdom and say that Barcelona is a pretty good place for practising Spanish. Far fewer people here reply to me in English: while in Andalusia people realise I'm not Spanish and so speak English, here they realise I'm not Catalan and so speak Spanish! There are also lots of meetup and language exchange events, and unlike back home, they're very well organised and run. I've even come across a few foreigners who spoke Catalan pretty well (although they complained that people often switch to Spanish on them...)! However, it's not quite a learner's paradise: I've spoken with quite a few foreigners living here and all say that it's very hard to socialise with the locals as opposed to other international people, and these kinds of events (where conversations tend to be superficial and it's hard to make real connections) are often their only opportunity. Because of this they're struggling to improve their Spanish, and this isn't just typical lazy expats, some of them are language enthusiasts like us who already speak a few.

So Barcelona seems like a good place to gain some confidence in Spanish without leaving your comfort zone too much (perhaps before going to somewhere like Andalusia), or for a polyglot who wants to practise lots of languages including Spanish or Catalan, but it's obviously not the place for those wanting the full-immersion experience.

Also, there are lots of French people here, and they are mostly happy to speak French with learners! I've practised that a bit in the last few days. Italians are a little harder to track down but there are some.

This week I'm practising Spanish when I can, with my hosts and at these events, but I'm also trying to get my Italian back into shape so I've been getting some input for that.

I had hoped to finish FSI before coming to Spain, but now it looks like I won't even finish it before leaving Spain!! Just two more lessons to go but I doubt I'll have time in the next few days.

[garyb]

I've been in Sardinia for a few days now! And it's taken a few days for me to get back into the groove with Italian after all that time in Spain. The last few days in Barcelona were mostly positive, I felt like my Spanish was back in form and at its peak.

Aside from the initial difficulty of changing to Italian mode, Sardinia has also been positive so far. Not many people have tried to speak English with me, and when they have it's almost always been sufficient to just reply in Italian. I do believe that part of this is not just my higher ability but also my confidence in the language: I know that I speak it well so I shouldn't have to deal with switching, while with Spanish I rationalise it as "well, I don't speak it that well anyway...". I've only had one person who really insisted, and this was a waitress in a very touristy restaurant (only place open at the time) and in fairness her English was good.

One thing I've noticed more than ever is the big difference between how Italians react to foreigners speaking Italian inside and outside of Italy. Outside of Italy, as I've described before it's usually disbelief, confusion, compliments, and lots of questions about why and how I've learnt it. But in much of Italy, people either don't bat an eyelid from the start, or they'll ask "do you speak/understand Italian?" and then not bat an eyelid afterwards. It's nice, it certainly makes the language and my knowledge of it feel like a useful tool rather than a party trick.

So far I've been in quite small towns and that's pushed me out of my language comfort zone: having to ask for help and information, buying food from small shops where I have to talk to people at the counter rather than just pick up packets in a supermarket, and today I did a tour where Italian was the only language spoken.

Compared to my previous experiences of travelling in North/Central Italy and Sicily, Sardinia so far seems like the best of both worlds for language learning: it puts you in situations where you have to use the language like Sicily, but people usually reply in Italian like on the mainland. I've also found service workers to be more friendly and chatty than in the rest of Italy so far where they just do their job and don't chit-chat with customers, which makes for a pleasant experience and more language practice. I'll wait and see how it goes in the bigger and more touristy towns though.

I've also heard some spoken Sardinian, which has made my inner language geek happy.

[garyb]

Not had much to say in the last month. Still in Sardinia, my Italian is improving even if at a glacial pace, still travelling a bit more quickly than I'd like to especially because the area I'm in now is quite expensive so I don't want to hang around for ages. In a couple of weeks I might stop for longer in Cagliari, and I'm still thinking of spending a while around Tuscany staying in one place, but no plans yet.

I've not done even a minute of Spanish study since leaving Spain. Lack of time above all else. I've also not done much Italian study (not even watching films or TV), I've just been getting my input and practice from immersion. I'm sure study plus immersion would speed up my progress but right now it's not realistic.

In the last week or so I've managed a bit more reading, in particular Sciascia's Il giorno della civetta. It's typical of his style: quite short yet smart and complicated.

I also spent a week in Berlin and it's made me very tempted to study German, which has been in my "someday" list for a while. Maybe in another life!

I'm still encountering fairly regular switching to English, even in Sardinia, but it's not really bothering me much any more and I'm coming to realise that it's just a fact of life if your level is anything less than native-like. Some people won't switch even for beginners, some will switch even for advanced speakers if they hear a foreign accent, and that's how it is.

One benefit that I have noticed from all the immersion, in Spanish and Italian, is that I've gotten much better at understanding out-of-context, like when someone asks me a question out of the blue on the street rather than as part of a conversation. I've always said that's one of the most difficult parts of listening comprehension, but it's become much easier now.

At this point I suppose I'm still considering my trip a sightseeing and culture experience more than a language learning one, and if language learning were the first priority I'd be doing things quite differently.

[garyb]

I feel like the more time I spend in Italy, the more I develop a pragmatic attitude towards learning the language. My Italian now is quite good, but to get it very good I'd need one of: a proper experience of living, working, and socialising in the country; several more years of what I've been doing so far (input almost every day, regular speaking with Italian friends, trips to Italy every so often, lessons now and then); or a shorter period but spending most of my free time on the language (binge-watching, more lessons, etc.) at the expense of other hobbies and social life. I love Italian but I'm not sure I love it enough for any of these options, especially considering the diminishing returns of a more advanced level compared to where I am now. If something like a relationship or an opportunity in Italy were to come up, then I'd adjust my ideas appropriately, but for now I don't even have a whole lot of use for a truly advanced level.

In a way this feels like admitting defeat, but I really just see it as a realistic perspective, and in a way it's a case giving myself permission to spend a little less time on Italian and more on things that are more important to me. Or perhaps even taking on other languages sooner or later: I could probably get to a useful level in German and learn a little Greek too in the same amount of time it would take to move my Italian up a little notch.

In the past I've been a bit critical of "jack-of-all-trades" learners and had a perfectionist attitude of "if you learn a language, you should learn it well", but I can see the appeal now, as long as once again you're realistic and don't fall into the classic traps that I see of either exaggerating about having "expert" or "advanced" levels in your slightly stronger languages or taking it too far and knowing bits and pieces of a dozen languages yet not being able to follow a conversation in any.

I believe it's not only my time in Italy that's gotten me thinking this way, but also the week in Berlin. I loved the place and I think that Germany has a lot of good things going for it (even if less so than a few years ago, but part of that is getting into politics), and even in a short time in a super-touristy place where the locals often speak decent English, there were so many situations in which some basic knowledge would have been extremely useful. While here in Italy, for most situations I'm in, a basic knowledge is sufficient to get things done, the rest is just a bonus and there are still many gaps in my knowledge anyway. And in many cases people will just insist on using English anyway, especially if there are other tourists around, so all that Italian knowledge isn't always going to much use.

I've discussed the switching issue a bit more with Italians I know. While us language learners can see it as an insult to be replied to in English, it appears that many Italians see it the opposite way and feel that they should use the "international language" with foreigners, even those who know some Italian, and they even feel ashamed about "having" to use Italian and see it as disrespectful to "oblige" foreigners to speak it. Obviously I disagree and even find it sad, but I can see and understand their point of view. However I've also been in places, including a semi-fancy restaurant, where the staff have used Italian even with beginners and only used (quite competent) English as a very last resort: seemingly they share my idea of respect. As I keep saying, it really just depends on the person and their own ideas, but this insight has helped me to understand those who do insist on English and realise that it's usually not meant negatively.

For the next few weeks at least my plan is to just keep going as I am, since I don't really have much time to study Italian or anything else, so I can't say whether these thoughts will actually affect my studies. Whenever I do settle into a place again I'll have all this in mind.