Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 16, 2023 10:04 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Le Baron wrote:I've done this a couple of times, it's irritating. Most times I now remind myself to write posts in the text editor beforehand.


A simple copy/paste before submitting has done the job for me since the late 1990s. No reason to compose offline or to use other software.

Yes indeed, I also do that, though I'm cautious after having composed in the reply box and then something else going wrong. My rule is if the post is longer than a regular paragraph: take precautions!
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Wed May 17, 2023 9:21 am

Yeah I used to be in the habit of a quick Ctrl-A Ctrl-C before submitting a post, but then after years of accessing the forum from a single computer with the Remember Me feature (which, to the site's credit, actually does what it says as long as you remember to click it the second time!) I got complacent. It's just the principle though: these basic user experience issues and the fact that they've never been fixed is unacceptable for a production website, and the "solutions" (workarounds) amount to a sort of secret handshake. Fine for those of us who've been around for years and enjoy the community enough to deal with it, but I can imagine newer members not coming back after being burned a couple of times.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Wed May 31, 2023 10:04 pm

I'm back! Time for a trip and language report.

Vienna

I loved it. It exceeded my expectations. Good size city, lots of culture and things to do, and it just seemed like a place where people enjoy life. I can see why it's been famously ranked as the best city to live in (and I have a friend who's been living there for a few years and whom I met up with one day, so I did get to hear a resident's perspective). I also got very lucky with the weather (maybe a bit too lucky the day it reached thirty degrees and I started to struggle, but I can't complain!) so got to make the most of the many outdoor activities. Amongst other things it's a great place for cycling (not quite up to Dutch standards, but light years ahead of where I live!) and watersports in the Old Danube.

On the higher culture side, I practised my Italian a bit at the Staatsoper (not that operatic Italian is very useful or even very comprehensible for me); they sell cheap standing tickets a couple of hours before shows start, but I'd advise getting a seat in advance if you can: standing was just a bit too much after a day of walking around exploring, especially in that weather. And I loved the Albertina museum.

Four nights there weren't enough. I could've spent weeks. Hell, I could live there. It's maybe my favourite city, or at least in the top three.

Only complaints are that the kebabs weren't as good as ones I've had in Germany, and the Naschmarkt is mostly a tourist trap with little interesting to offer. Which these markets often are, but earlier today I was at the Viktualienmarkt in Munich which was a lot more reasonable and varied.

Salzburg

A smaller town, but again not short on things to do, and it's surrounded by mountains and lakes easily reachable by bus so a great base for day trips. I also found that I met more like-minded travellers there, while in the bigger cities it was mainly just younger people wanting to get drunk and party. Which I did too at their age, but it's not really why I travel now. Again I could've spent longer there just because of all the nearby nature.

Munich

It seemed a bit meh after I had enjoyed the other two places so much. I'm not sure why exactly since it's beautiful and has plenty to offer, but it felt kinda like when you go on a date with someone who sounds amazing on paper but the sparks just don't fly. Maybe it's just because it was the last stop on my trip and I was starting to get tired, it's the kind of big city where a lot of your time is taken up just getting between places, and things were a bit overpriced. Two fairly laid-back days felt like plenty, and on my third day I took a day trip to Nuremberg.

One big highlight however was the Deutsches Museum, which was recommended to me and did not disappoint. Probably the best science and technology museum I've seen, and it even had a section on musical instruments. Another good tip I got is that some other museums only cost one euro on Sundays, so I checked a few out (although sadly the one I was most keen on, the Neue Pinakothek, was temporarily closed). And I had the obligatory visit to the Hofbräuhaus, as well as enjoying some other fine Bavarian beer, sausages, and asparagus.

Again though, it felt like a place where people simply enjoy life and spending time outdoors. The huge Englischer Garten exemplified that.

Speaking German

My experiences of trying to speak German were encouraging! Especially in Austria (maybe that's the secret for learning German: go to Austria rather than Germany!) but also in Bavaria. I've heard all these accounts of everyone switching to English upon hearing any imperfection or accent, but that just wasn't my experience. I'd say that around three in four times the interaction continued in German and people only switched to English once it became apparent that I wasn't understanding well or was struggling to find words - which, to be fair, did happen quite quickly and quite often. That's already a far better hit rate than my last trip to Italy, as well as much of my experience with French and Spanish, despite my German being a good few CEFR levels lower!

Even if I started in English because I didn't feel up to the task in German, it was fairly common for the other person to change to German, either right away or sometime during the interaction! This happened particularly with ice cream sellers, which I had also experienced in Berlin a few years ago, before I even knew more than a few words. So, purely in the interest of science and language learning of course, I bought a few more ice creams at different places and can indeed confirm that buying ice cream is a good way to practise your German. I suppose I'll just have to keep using that method.

It seemed like German speakers simply have a pragmatic attitude towards non-native speakers, based on their ability to use the language rather than their accent or appearance or even confidence. As well as stereotypical German practicality, it might well also be because non-natives speaking good German is pretty common nowadays: immigrants, foreign students, and even just enthusiastic learners like the ones from the meetup. I heard quite a few other non -native speakers interacting with customer service people in German without issues, including ones with obvious accents like American and French.

But still, these are just my experiences and I don't want to deny those of all the people who do say that everyone switches to English, and I may well have had some "beginner's luck" (i.e. natives being more kind with beginners than with advanced learners, which I've again experienced in my other languages). Or maybe my personality and demeanour just suit German more than Romance languages and people sense that - which sounds a bit silly but to be honest I do kinda feel that way... German even with my basic level somehow feels a bit more "me". And I know that it can vary wildly between different parts of a country, not necessarily even based on how touristy they are.

I also know that social interactions are a whole different ball game from customer service ones, and I can't comment on those yet. I did meet a few German-speakers in hostels, but always in groups with non-speakers so English was used, and my level still feels too low to bother trying outside of a meetup or lesson-type environment.

Even my basic knowledge made a huge difference to my trip. A lot of the info on places to visit, especially outside of the main attractions, was only in German or at least much more complete in German. Announcements were often only in German, or more detailed in German. Some museum exhibits were only in German. And as usual, being able to pick up significant bits of conversations going on around me just makes things a little more interesting.

Going to that meetup before the trip was definitely a good idea, just to warm up and to nip the Spanish interference in the bud.

As could be expected, I'm now feeling keener than ever to get my German past the basics, fill in gaps in everyday language, and gain more confidence. And the semi-immersion on my trip has no doubt given it a boost. Let's just hope I can keep it up; even with high motivation, life getting in the way could be a killer. But the trip has been another of these reminders that there's more to life than work and I feel happier when I have more balance and I'm able to pursue my passions. Not just languages, but also: the nature and outdoor parts; being in places where I felt that people live well; music (classical music is as big part of Austrian culture as I had imagined, and the hostels I stayed in had guitars that guests could play and I practised more than I had done at home for a few weeks!), meeting people who lead interesting lives; and just taking things more slowly in general.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby tastyonions » Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm

Sounds like a wonderful time, glad you had a good trip and the language part went swimmingly, too. :-)
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:01 pm

So what next? (Yes I'm procrastinating on the million things I have to do now that I'm back home...)

I talked about filling in gaps, and based on my experience I'd say the big ones are vocabulary (which I knew already) and listening comprehension. The meetup perhaps lulled me into a false sense of security about the latter, since social conversations are often easier to follow than "basic" everyday interactions since there's a lot more context, and it was mostly non-native speakers who spoke quite slowly. But in a few of these everyday interactions I got caught out as soon as I was asked a question that deviated from familiar territory; one time it was just "would you like anything else with that?" but phrased in a different way from the usual "noch etwas?". I also tried to listen in on a couple of guided tours in the Deutsches Museum and my understanding was very patchy, although one guide did have a strong regional accent which I couldn't place; I assumed Bavarian just because of the location, but couldn't confirm that!

Both should just improve if I keep doing what I'm doing, although I really do need to make more effort to remember the gender of nouns, but for comprehension I need to pay a lot more attention and rely less on subtitles. Which I know I keep saying yet it never lasts long. And maybe choose more appropriate material than police series.

I did enjoy the branding of this takeaway in Munich, though:

Image

The big thing I'm procrastinating on is of course looking for work, but I think it's reasonable to give myself a little break before getting back into it. And visiting countries where the way of life just generally seems, well, a bit better in almost every way does make me think. Especially since I'm not getting any younger, I would like to settle and have a family at some point, and places like these seem much better than the UK for that sort of thing (and maybe even better for finding a like-minded person to have one with, but that's perhaps getting too far into grass-is-greener thinking!).

Austria is very tempting after this trip, but it's a bit of an unknown quantity compared to Germany which I've already researched quite well. From what I gather so far, there aren't as many opportunities and pay isn't as high, but Vienna quite unusually for a European capital doesn't have a huge housing shortage which in itself is a big selling point. But Berlin still seems the best bet for availability of work and because it appears that the possibility of getting EU residency after 21 months with an in-demand job and a B1 level in German also requires living there specifically, not just anywhere in Germany as I had previously believed. 21 months isn't a long time, and it could open up a lot more options if I wanted to go elsewhere afterwards. In Austria (and many other countries) on the other hand it would take five years, and changing job in that time requires reapplying for a visa which can put you in a weak position.

Again, it's hard to not regret not doing all this before Brexit, and I certainly had enough time and warning and opportunity. Anyway... there are other countries too that I've not researched much yet, and other options like an international company or one that lets you work from anywhere for at least a certain period of time each year. But the real difficulty is figuring out my priorities.

Back on language learning... Yes I'm keen to finally start taking German seriously, but my trip to Portugal isn't far away now, and it looks like I'm going to Japan next April (in theory to play a gig in Osaka as a session musician; I think there's a very good chance that the gig won't actually happen, but it's a great excuse to plan a visit to somewhere I've always wanted to go and if it does happen then all the better!) and I'd like to at least pick up some absolute basics in the language.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:22 am

I went back to the German meetup last night. It felt a bit anticlimactic this time. The novelty of trying to converse in the language for the first time was gone, leaving just the harsh reality that it's a struggle and I'm really not very good at it :lol: But still, it was a pleasant event with nice people.

On the plus side, my listening comprehension seemed even better than last time: I was sitting with a German, an Austrian, a non-native who had studied and worked in Germany for eight years and aside from an accent didn't seem too far off native-like, and another relatively advanced learner, and I had no problem understanding the entire conversation. At least for the first hour or so. I was quite tired (which didn't help my speaking either) and after some time I was finding it very difficult to stay focused on the conversation. That sort of fatigue also happened with my other languages in the past and sometimes still does, especially if I'm already a bit worn out. It happens even in English sometimes...

I wouldn't exactly say I felt discouraged; I enjoyed it and think I did just fine, all things considered. But I'm not sure if continuing to attend would be the best use of my time at my current level. Going before my trip was absolutely a good choice - I got to try out speaking and get used to it, it gave a clear picture of my current ability and what to work on, and it satisfied my curiosity about the event - but perhaps it's served its purpose for now and I'd be better off working on my speaking in other ways then going back at a later point when it'll be easier to keep up and I won't be slowing things down for the other participants. My level was a good bit higher in my other languages when I started attending meetups regularly, even if I had been working on them for much less time thanks to high school French and Romance-language similarity.

Which other ways? That brings up the question of whether my current speaking ability is limited more by my overall level in the language and lack of vocabulary etc., or more by simple lack of practice and I just need to keep working on "activating" the good receptive knowledge I already have. I dislike the term "activation", both because it's connected to the silly naming of receptive skills as "passive" and because I feel that productive skills are such a different thing that the word hugely understates the work required to develop them and makes it sound like it's just a matter of turning on a switch somewhere...

But anyway I think it's a bit of both. I clearly know the language fairly well if I had no problem following a long conversation between several good speakers, so there's a big lag between understanding and production that more practice would almost certainly close a little, but I'm also aware that that gap is a fact of life even in advanced and native languages and my speaking level will improve as my overall level improves. For that "more practice", however, a setting where I can really take my time like one-to-one conversation or even self-talk and writing would no doubt be much more helpful than group conversations. Tutoring is a good option that I'm considering, although feedback is probably less important than just getting the words out at this stage.


In other news, the job hunt is really not going well. I suppose that everyone who's been telling me that it's a bad period now is right, although nobody can say when it'll get better. My options seem to be: going to another big slow corporate company which would be no real improvement over my current one; joining an early-stage startup, which really isn't what I want to do right now; or competing with all the people being laid off from the big famous tech companies for the few "good" positions going. And that's just in the UK; the EU idea seems hopeless for now and I've not had a single contact or reply through that recruitment site, even after lowering my expectations as they advised me to. The visa requirement likely puts off most employers.

I think I'm going to take the advice that several people have given me: forget about it for a few months and just enjoy my summer. Which I'm doing. I'm spending plenty time outside, plans for Portugal are underway, and slowing down on the work stuff means more time for languages and music. I might start learning Portuguese soon, and Romance Language #4 could be a refreshing break from the much more arduous German studies.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:33 am

My German studies and motivation have fallen off a cliff again. The trip is over; I've decided the meetup isn't right for me just yet; working in a German-speaking country looks unlikely any time soon; and given all that it's hard to find the will to put in the hard work to reach the useful intermediate level that I'm still so far away from. It's times like these that I realise I'm not a true language nerd and I really need a current or near-future use for the language (be it real or just perceived) to keep me going.

I do however have a near-future use for Portuguese - my trip to Portugal at the end of August is now organised - yet I haven't started studying that either. I've just been busy, plus my mental health has taken a bit of a dip again so I've not had much motivation for things in general, although other than that my goal from a couple of posts ago of "enjoy my summer" is going pretty well. All that might be a bigger factor than my lack of utility for German.

July looks like it might be a bit of a quieter month, so this weekend or next week I'm going to try to dive into Portuguese. My plan will likely just be the usual one for fast-tracking the beginner stage of a Romance language, which hasn't really failed me yet: Michel Thomas to pick up the basic structure then straight to Assimil and input to build up familiarity and vocabulary. Maybe something for pronunciation too, and some articles aimed at Spanish or Italian speakers to help see the differences and similarities although that'll just be an extra. Maybe some DuoLingo just to top it off and drill the basics a bit more; it might just turn out to be too slow and painful, but it's worth a try.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:16 pm

July hasn't been a quieter month. The job market has picked up a little and I'm currently in the interview process for an opportunity that would allow me to work from other countries for a few months per year, and I've applied to other similar ones. That might satisfy my wanderlust and let me sample some places without the sort of long-term move that is looking very difficult even if I were willing to make the commitment. So obviously I've been putting most of my effort into that. I swear that once I find and settle into a new job I'll get serious about my hobbies again.

I think I've decided for now to look for something with that kind of flexibility and that lets me focus on the kind of work I enjoy, rather than trying to go into leadership/management since my taste of that so far hasn't been great, even if it means making a bit less money. I don't want to repeat the burnout I had earlier this year any time soon. Although with international companies it can sometimes be possible to have your cake and eat it too...

I didn't want to write another language log post about not studying languages, and now I've maybe done the minimum to justify one.

German has just been in maintenance with the usual video materials and bits of DuoLingo but not enough to keep up a streak. Still watching a bit of Tatort; even though I've acknowledged that it's near-useless at my current level, I simply enjoy it and it can be a nice break from everything, with some German exposure as a bonus. Plus some German and Spanish podcasts. I've also watched a few Easy Portuguese videos, which are easy enough to follow (at least with the PT subtitles), but I've not done any real study yet. I still have a month...

There's also a possibility of an Italy trip later this year, but nothing certain yet. If that does happen then I plan to do some more Italian listening (which I'd be doing already if Italian podcasts hadn't stopped being a thing in the last couple of years... Surely there are still some, just beyond the "obvious" sources like RAI) and some pronunciation practice.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:32 pm

I finally started some Portuguese a few days ago, with Michel Thomas.

It's undoubtedly a bit slow-going and the students' mistakes can get frustrating, but I need to keep my Romance background in mind before criticising them, and overall I feel that so far it's doing all the things I like about MT. It also clearly tries to address the pronunciation shortcoming of the Michel's original courses by having a native speaker repeat the phrases and at least try to explain the sounds and correct the students when they get them wrong. There's a lot of emphasis on vowel reduction in particular, which is good for me (or not: hopefully all the hard work of training it out of me for Italian doesn't get undone...). Ideally I'd want even more focus on pronunciation at the start, but between my current very modest goals and what I've learnt from my phonetic efforts for other languages, it's quite adequate for now. And it's European Portuguese, so all the better for me.

I've become aware that I sometimes tend to incorrectly nasalise vowels in Italian and my other languages, so I'm trying to be aware of that and correct it. Portuguese could help there too, since it does have nasal vowels so I'm having to make sure I pronounce them when, and only when, I should.

To be honest I'm probably just going to end up going into Spanish whenever I try to speak Portuguese. I mean, it happened enough with German, and it's not even similar. At this stage I'm just aiming to have some understanding and survival speaking.

I've been doing bits and pieces of German and Italian too.

Still no news on the job front, but maybe that'll come this week.
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Re: Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, bits of French, and now German!)

Postby garyb » Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:51 pm

I got the job!

As well as getting away from an increasingly toxic environment that was making me miserable, it also feels like it's opened a whole lot of possibilities like the aforementioned remote working and quite possibly also an easy way to transfer abroad if I did want to move for the longer term: they have offices in Berlin, Australia, and various other places of interest. The team I'm due to join is already spread across Europe, from what I heard. Assuming it goes well, of course: one step at a time!

Now maybe I'll have some time for languages again. Especially since it's looking like I might get a couple of weeks off before starting. I'm also considering extending my trip, but I'll need to figure out the details of dates etc.

The pay is also not bad, which has got me thinking about investing a bit more money into my hobbies to make faster progress and get more satisfaction from them. Music lessons would be the very obvious choice, but maybe some language tutoring too. I've already said that I feel it could help a lot with my German. Although I need to get into a good self-study routine again first before thinking about involving teachers.

Not had much time yet because I've been busy with the huge festival that's currently going on in my city, on top of the work stuff. But I was in a French restaurant yesterday and I got in a bit of French with a waitress, which went surprisingly fluently. I suppose I had been immersed in the atmosphere by hearing the staff and some customers speaking, and perhaps these rich sauces helped too. I've also spoken some Italian with some friends of friends, and am hoping to do more of that at the weekend.
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