Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Greek: I've finished the "first wave" of the "Absolute beginners conversational" course, and I'll try to blast through the translations this week before I leave on Friday for a weekend in England before my flight to Greece. With the trip this close, I doubt I'll learn much more, so the focus should just be on revising and consolidating what I know. Similarly, I'm nowhere near even being able to have simple conversations and I'm not suddenly going to develop that ability over the next week, so I'm better off focusing on receptive skills since my speaking's not going to be very useful in any case. Reading the script and picking out known words from what I hear and read, on the other hand, are probably things I can improve at even in this short time and could come in useful in the country.

Others: I've finally invested in a VPN service subscription: a few pounds a month for better access to target-language media. Should be helpful for Italian especially since a lot of material on TV channel sites is now region-locked. My other languages haven't been getting much attention recently though; I'll get back into Spanish properly, lessons or meetups and all, once I'm back from Greece. I did start watching La casa de las flores, a comedy-drama series that has been recommended both by my tutor and on here. It's fun, not too hard despite being Mexican, and the episode length is sensible. In French, I made my third attempt at watching the second series of Les revenants but I'm concluding once again that it's just not very good compared to the first.

[zjones]

Hi garyb,

I proposed starting a Modern Greek Study Group, so if you're interested just let me know by posting on the proposal thread for the group: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =17&t=9307. If you know of anyone else learning Modern Greek, let me know and I'll send them a message.

[garyb]

Last night I decided to check out the local language exchange meetup I've mentioned that I used to go to, as I felt like getting out of the house and I've been thinking and talking about it for ages. To my surprise, there were only two people there, one of whom was a guy who's been involved with it for years so I recognised him. They told me that over the last few months attendance has plummeted and neither of them intend to go back any time soon. It was a bit sad to see; I don't want to get nostalgic since I stopped going for a reason and it was always very hit-or-miss, especially for French, but on a good night there would be several dozen attendees and even at quieter times there were always Spanish speakers.

He said that the language-specific meetups still have some life left in them, but again it's mostly learners, and he reckons that the "golden age" where young Spanish speakers were everywhere in the city and it was easy to meet them has been over for a long time now. This matches my experience where I knew lots of Spaniards in the past and encountered them constantly in my social life yet now that I'm working on the language seriously I don't know any and can't find any. It's become more like French, where people either come temporarily for a work or study placement or are more settled and not looking to meet new people. This constant contact with the culture was a big motivation for learning the language, so the situation now is discouraging, although I'm still keen to travel more in the Spanish-speaking world too.

I suppose the lesson is that nothing lasts forever and it's yet another reason I feel that all these years going against the tide and studying French even though Spanish was far more accessible were a bit of a waste of time; my logic was that the Spanish speakers would still be there in a few years' time, but looks like I was wrong.

Back to plan A of online lessons and possibly language exchanges, I guess! I might try the Spanish/English meetup one day, but I'm not optimistic given that even a couple of years ago it was very beginner-heavy.

[garyb]

Leaving for Greece this weekend!

Thoughts on my progress: I feel like I've just about overcome the very first hurdle. I still don't think I'd last long in a conversation, and in fact today I was thinking of trying one with the woman in the neighbouring office but then realised I didn't know how to say practically any of the things I had in mind, but on the other hand it's all feeling much less overwhelming, the absolute basics are beginning to stick, words keep floating around and popping up in my head so my subconscious is clearly doing its job, and reading is getting easier by the day. Is my method the most exciting or most efficient one possible? Probably not. But it's working and I'm confident that if I just keep it up then the gaps will gradually fill themselves in.

I even feel like I'm past the point where my brain couldn't take in any more after 30-60 minutes, which I've been taking advantage of to do some last-minute cramming: catching up with these translations, re-listening to Language Transfer and reading the transcript (great resource, although the transcript is a draft and much of it is sadly missing accent marks), and temporarily increasing my new cards per day in Anki.

I'm sure I'll be doing a lot more listening than speaking during the trip, and cramming won't make much difference at this point, but it's a nice excuse to pour in some time.

I've discovered Easy Greek on Youtube. Despite the name, it's still well above my level, but it looks like a great intermediate resource: interviews with people on the street about typical topics like their city and the things they like, with subtitles in Greek and English. Like with the other native materials so far, I can pick out words I recognise but not really follow it. I've put it aside for later use, and at this point I think Greek's here to stay in my language rotation even if it just becomes another on-and-off slowly-learned one like Spanish.

[zjones]

Enjoy your trip!

[garyb]

Back from Greece! I don't have much to say about the trip language-wise really; my assessment in my last post was fairly accurate in that by this point I know some basics but a month or two of study just hasn't been enough to reach much of a usable level. I could understand bits of conversations and text and the exposure helped reinforce everything I knew and pick up a couple of new things, which was all nice, but I simply didn't have the ability, need, or desire to interact with people in Greek. My dad was with us most of the time so he dealt with any necessary situations, and in bars and restaurants etc. most staff spoke quite good English.

I could've tried ordering in Greek, as I'm quite sure I'm capable of things like asking for a coffee or beer, but I don't really agree with the conventional wisdom that "people appreciate it if you at least try"; it contradicts most of my experience abroad, and I believe that if you start an interaction in a language in a situation where the other party knows English you should be prepared to continue it and cope with replies and further questions. Otherwise you're just making life harder for everyone involved and perpetuating the kind of stereotypes about foreigners being incapable in the language that make things more difficult for those who do make the effort. Of course we all know there's a sensible middle ground: perfectionism doesn't help and if you wait until you feel fully confident you'll be waiting forever.

Perhaps after another few months of study I'd be happy "trying out" my Greek, and I'm keen to keep working on it and get there. Plan for now is to just keep doing what I was doing, like I said before.

DuoLingo

I used DuoLingo a lot during the trip, as it was just a convenient resource for the situation, not having my computer or a textbook or regular blocks of time for "real study". My opinion hasn't changed much - useful resource for extra practice but it has its faults - although now I feel I've had enough experience with its current iteration to be more confident in that opinion. The new features and changes (new since I last used it a few years ago!) do make it a bit more usable: no decaying skills, improved mobile interface, and multiple levels on each skill so you can choose which to work on more "deeply" (although this does mean that the "practice" function focuses on the ones you work on less, and if I'm not choosing to work on them it's probably because I think they're less important!). As much as I dislike the gamification stuff, it does motivate me to do a bit every day, although now that I'm back to aforementioned "real study" I don't think I'll care much about losing my streak.

Now I need some more sleep before I even think about getting back into language studies!

[Elenia]

Thanks for telling us about the trip

but I don't really agree with the conventional wisdom that "people appreciate it if you at least try"

This got me to thinking. I think it's something that depends on the case. I think in the kind of situation you were in, with people with comfortable levels of English, they might appreciate it in the right circumstances. The right circumstances being, of course: if they aren't too busy and probably also if you preface your attempt with a disclaimer that you're just beginning and want to try out ordering in Greek. And, of course, only if the order is something simple. The other case is one that I've experienced a few times here in Sweden (which I'm sure would surprise quite a few people): restaurant/café staff who can speak English, but are uncomfortable doing so and would rather not if they don't have to. Experiencing that was one of the motivations for me to work on oral skills.

Of course, outside these specific situations, people mostly just want to do their job with as little trouble as possible. They might be happy if you 'at least try', they might simply tolerate it, or they may actively find it annoying.

Mostly just me thinking aloud (so to speak), but if you have any thoughts on that I would be glad to hear them

[garyb]

This got me to thinking. I think it's something that depends on the case. I think in the kind of situation you were in, with people with comfortable levels of English, they might appreciate it in the right circumstances. The right circumstances being, of course: if they aren't too busy and probably also if you preface your attempt with a disclaimer that you're just beginning and want to try out ordering in Greek. And, of course, only if the order is something simple. The other case is one that I've experienced a few times here in Sweden (which I'm sure would surprise quite a few people): restaurant/café staff who can speak English, but are uncomfortable doing so and would rather not if they don't have to. Experiencing that was one of the motivations for me to work on oral skills.

Of course, outside these specific situations, people mostly just want to do their job with as little trouble as possible. They might be happy if you 'at least try', they might simply tolerate it, or they may actively find it annoying.

I'd agree with all that. I did find the waiters and bar staff in Greece quite friendly and chatty, and they often asked where we were from and so on, which I found quite nice after places like Italy and Spain where they just do their job and there's no chance of small-talk. One asked if we knew any Greek so it was an opportunity to mention a few words and could have become a real conversation if my level had been higher.

I probably could have tried ordering in Greek in situations like that, but to be honest I didn't see the point. I'm well past the "speak whenever possible at all costs" mentality and the novelty of being able to do something small in a second language, and it wouldn't have achieved much aside from a little ego boost and perhaps impressing the waiter. These things are great motivators for someone learning their first language, of course, but I don't really feel the need now.

I had similar experiences to yours in Barcelona with staff who were relieved that I knew a little Spanish as they didn't really like having to use English, back when my level was quite basic, which was again surprising but a nice confidence boost. Still, my level of comprehension if not speaking was a good bit higher than in my present Greek thanks to related languages and the relatively clear Spanish spoken there.


Token update from last week: I've been off work and recording music so haven't had much time or motivation for languages. I considered taking another Spanish lesson but my tutor's prices have increased again and her available times have become even more inconsistent and inconvenient. I'm just feeling a bit stuck and unmotivated with Spanish speaking: I can't be bothered finding another tutor or rearranging my routine to fit in one whom I like but whose prices go up by a couple of dollars every month or so; the nearby language exchange is dead; the other one I mentioned seems to have one native speaker to every ten learners if the Meetup attendees are anything to go by; the thought of pursuing a one-to-one exchange is unappealing to put it mildly; and as I said it's no longer a language I encounter much socially as the Spanish community in my city isn't what it once was. I'm still enjoying media so it might just make sense to have it as a low-priority, input-only language and abandon my old dreams of speaking it well for the time being since I don't have much use for it anymore. There's been talk of a trip to Spain next year though...

I also slowed down the Greek studies, which was a conscious decision from thinking that I'll be able to do most of my studies in the office, since work always slows down towards the end of the year, while I can only do the music recording in my free time and it's rare for me to have so much of it. I stuck with Duolingo but paused the more serious stuff. Once I recover from the back-to-work shock I'll resume the Pod101, translations, and Language Transfer revision.

Italian: Just more films and TV. I watched La tenerezza, based on the book La tentazione di essere felici, but "based on" means they replaced the book's decent story with a weird one that didn't make a whole lot of sense. Now onto Sicilian ghost story. For French, my exchange partner seems to be losing interest and I kind of am too, so it's probably back into maintenance mode.

[garyb]

I realise my previous post had a general tone of "I can't be bothered with languages right now", so hopefully this one will be a little more enthusiastic.

As expected I have little to do at work so I'm getting through the Greek work. Once again going against my own previous beliefs, I'm doing what could be considered "overlearning" of Language Transfer and the Pod101 dialogues by revising them and making Anki cards from sentences. LT is a course that's just so full of useful material that it seems a waste not to try to get the most out of it, and on revision I'm realising that I have indeed forgotten at least 50% of the material since working through it the first time. Probably even more beyond lesson 50 or so. I agree that trying to squeeze the last 5 or 10 percent out of a course is not productive compared to moving onto new materials, but when I've failed to retain half or more I reckon it's excusable. I don't think I'm overdoing it: I'm not trying to cover every sentence, just choosing some that seem particularly useful for vocab or grammar that I don't yet have a grip on.

(edit: just got to a part of the transcripts where a whole bunch of lessons have romanised Greek! I shouldn't complain about a free resource, but... what the hell? The parts without accent marks are bad enough!)

There is the question of why I've retained so little in the first place, and how others could learn from that. I believe I did rush though it and didn't always pay full attention, and I would've benefited from repeating the lessons where I struggled to respond to the prompts. It was just a hell of a lot of material to take in in a short time, but I'm not sure if taking it more slowly (perhaps while working through another course in parallel) would've helped or I would've just lost the benefit of its spaced repetition and forgotten even more. Maybe it's not an ideal first course, but on the other hand I do think it gave me a foundation that made Pod101 with its limited explanations far clearer.

Then there's the question of the next step. Continue with Pod101, or finally get Assimil? As I was just saying in zjones's log, I prefer one big course (and perhaps filling in gaps afterwards) to a piecemeal approach, and if convenience hadn't been a consideration I'd have chosen Assimil over Pod101 in the first place. Pod101's more specific units might be more useful after Assimil's more general approach. At this point I still have a month or so of subscription remaining so I might as well make the most of it, then I'll decide whether to continue or just move to Assimil.

As I've said though, I'm progressing with what I'm doing and I'm sure I'll reach my goal of knowing the basics whichever path I take, as long as I just keep it up for some more months. The first steps are always going to be a pain.

[Expugnator]

I'd go with Assimil. Pod101 escalates too rashly between the levels, to the extent that I've put it on hold at the intermediate one after coming from pre-intermediate. It's as if they made a new set of dialogs with entirely new vocabulary/situations from the previous one. And I'm not really stuck at the pre-intermediate level and unable to tackle intermediate resources: I've been through 3 Assimils, 2 language transfers and most of what else's up there.

Assimil on the contrary moves on much like the ones for the Romance languages do, compared to Norwegian and Indonesian which have too much vocabulary squeezed in.

(EDIT: autocorrect replaced Romance wrongly)