Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Thanks for the feedback! The Kwisiq staff were trying to tell me that I was wrong and only the form with the imperative was correct, so I was starting to think it was just some interference from Italian. To their credit though, they did reply quickly so they seem to be somewhat on the ball. That question had come from their unit on the imperative, but when I saw it it was in a mixed quiz so I wasn't aware of that. For other questions, there are hints on which tense/mood they expect, but not this one.

[Ogrim]

Thanks for the feedback! The Kwisiq staff were trying to tell me that I was wrong and only the form with the imperative was correct, so I was starting to think it was just some interference from Italian. To their credit though, they did reply quickly so they seem to be somewhat on the ball. That question had come from their unit on the imperative, but when I saw it it was in a mixed quiz so I wasn't aware of that. For other questions, there are hints on which tense/mood they expect, but not this one.

Well, if it is an exercise where you are supposed to use only imperative then obviously your answer was wrong in that sense, but it doesn't seem that this was cearly explained.

Just as an aside, (and without the intention of derailing your log) I'd never heard of Kwisiq before you mentioned it and my first though was "Oh no, not yet another on-line language learning programme to waste time on!" I mean, do these people make these products expecting one day to make a business out of it? And what does Kwisiq offer that is not covered by some of the many other on-line resources like Memrize, Clozemaster, X-pod101 or Duolingo? But I guess that could be the topic for a separate discussion thread.

[garyb]

Well, if it is an exercise where you are supposed to use only imperative then obviously your answer was wrong in that sense, but it doesn't seem that this was cearly explained.

Exactly: it came from the "imperative" section, but this wasn't made clear when I was taking a test that mixes questions from various sections.

Just as an aside, (and without the intention of derailing your log) I'd never heard of Kwisiq before you mentioned it and my first though was "Oh no, not yet another on-line language learning programme to waste time on!" I mean, do these people make these products expecting one day to make a business out of it? And what does Kwisiq offer that is not covered by some of the many other on-line resources like Memrize, Clozemaster, X-pod101 or Duolingo? But I guess that could be the topic for a separate discussion thread.

Look at the recent posts in Cavesa's log: she was the first to mention it and has written a lot about it. My first reaction was similar - groan, not another of these things - but since she was saying good things I decided to check it out. As another member said, its strength is that it focuses on doing one thing well (grammar exercises) rather than trying to be all-in-one resource like Duolingo. As I say, I think it has potential even if there are some issues to iron out and the gamification clutter like badges puts me off a little. As for the resources you mention, I've never liked Memrise (too centered around low-quality user-generated-content) and I've already mentioned my deal-breaking issues with Clozemaster and Duolingo. I've only looked into the Pod101 sites briefly but they've always felt overwhelming and disorganised.

I've been saying for a while that learning technologies still haven't delivered any improvement over traditional audio and book courses, although sites like those are starting to come close. Kwiziq takes traditional exercises but tries to deliver them in a smart way, identifying what the user needs more practice with, which I think has a lot of potential. It just needs some polish, less trend-following, and a proper name. I'm not sure how they plan to make money off it though.

[Cavesa]

Just as an aside, (and without the intention of derailing your log) I'd never heard of Kwisiq before you mentioned it and my first though was "Oh no, not yet another on-line language learning programme to waste time on!" I mean, do these people make these products expecting one day to make a business out of it? And what does Kwisiq offer that is not covered by some of the many other on-line resources like Memrize, Clozemaster, X-pod101 or Duolingo? But I guess that could be the topic for a separate discussion thread.

I think it was FrannieB who said it: "Kwiziq is what we wanted Duolingo to be." (Sorry, if I am quoting or paraphrasing you wrong, FrannieB!)

A very quick answer (loooooooong answers are in my log, sorry, if I am derailing too much, Garyb):

I.Unlike Duolingo, it is a serious resource.
1.The creators strive to make it work for learners from zero to C1. Spanish is definitely not at that point yet (it is in Beta, as the creators admit openly), but the French course seems to be much more complete. Of course it is unlikely to distinguish various registers of the language and include all the correct variants, but we cannot expect that even from sources we value traditionally highly, like the Gramatica de Uso books. So, I wouldn't hold that against Kwiziq. True, it is possible to make a different mistake than the expected one and then the explanation in the grammar lesson belonging to the sentence won't suffice, but that happens with any tool.
2.The explanatory notes are quite well made and an integral part of the tool, much better than the Duolingo ones.
3.Much more freedom for the learner. The Duolingo trees are only seemingly adaptable. They are linear, just sometimes you can choose the order of the next two or three skills, or you can test out of one big sector. In Kwiziq, you can simply look at the map and put the lessons you want into your "notebook", regardless of the level.

II.Unlike Memrise, it is made specifically for grammar teaching. Explanation and testing, that is the method. Memrise is primarily a vocab tool. And the official courses are trying to look like full value courses while just making people memorise phrases.

III.Clozemaster doesn't have the grammar explanations and is mainly a vocab tool.

IV.X-pod101 is a completely different product. X-pod101 is trying to be a whole course. Kwiziq teaches "just" the grammar.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the note of too many multiple choices, where a gap would be appropriate much earlier

[Ogrim]

Thanks for the explanation Cavesa, I've also had a look at the posts in your log. If they add a language that I am currently studying (Russian or Arabic) I will give it a try.

[garyb]

I'm a bit disappointed with Kwiziq now: I just found out yesterday that if you want to do more than 10 tests per month you have to pay for the premium membership. Of course they only bothered to tell me this once I had taken 9. This costs £17.99 per month (advertised as £14.99 + VAT), although there are discounts for committing for a longer period. So that's how they make their money.

The tests are the main purpose of the site - the lessons are just the same stuff you can find for free all over the Web or in any grammar book - and 10 per month isn't many. One test takes a few minutes and I'd ideally be doing them most days. The price (more than double what I pay for Netflix, to put it into perspective) is far more than I'm willing to pay for something that's just a small accessory to my studies, and their sales tactics feel a little untrustworthy: only telling me I needed the paid package when I had almost used up the free allowance, and quoting prices without tax although it's aimed at individuals. Of course the full prices are in smaller print, the info on the free limitations was surely somewhere non-obvious, and they have to make money somehow, but it all feels a bit sneaky and it's put me off. I might still do a test every few days to use the free allowance in combination with other resources, but I'm not paying. Especially when there's no shortage of material for Spanish.

My idea of reading and watching Harry Potter in other languages has backfired: I've rediscovered my love for the series and now want to re-read it all... in the original language, of course. It just doesn't feel the same in translation.

Otherwise, the usual slow progress. I have enough Spanish series on my list now to keep me busy for the rest of the year, and I've seen a few more Italian films. One highlight was Italiano medio, which was very silly but good fun and something different from most modern comedies. I'll write a bit about it in Italian since it's been a while since I did any L2 writing here:

L'idea centrale film è una sorta di parodia di "Limitless": una pillola che diminuisce, invece di aumentare, di dieci volte la capacità del cervello. Sotto la sua influenza il protagonista intellettuale e permaloso diventa un "italiano medio" fissato per la cultura della celebrità, lo sport, i reality show e il sesso, permettendogli finalmente di sciogliersi un po' e godersi la vita. Mi ha fatto pensare: quasi tutti gli italiani che conosco sono persone abbastanza colte e intellettuali. Conoscono bene la storia, la letteratura, l'arte e la filosofia e spesso hanno delle basi in diverse lingue, cosa che mi ha impressionato molto e contribuito alla mia stima della cultura italiana. Questo soprattutto visto che ho conosciuto poche persone così del mio paese. Però i miei amici italiani mi assicurano che quelli che ho conosciuto sono "un certo tipo di italiano" e non tutti sono così; anzi, la maggior parte corrisponde allo stereotipo del film.

The main idea of the film is a kind of parody of "Limitless": a pill that reduces, rather than increases, the brain's capacity by ten times. Under its influence the intellectual and sensitive protagonist becomes an "average Italian" obsessed with celebrity culture, sport, reality shows and sex, allowing him to finally loosen up and enjoy life. It made me think: almost all the Italians I know are quite cultured and intellectual people. They know history, literature, art and philosophy well and often have some knowledge of several languages, which has impressed me a lot and contributed to my respect for Italian culture. Especially since I've met few people like that from my own country. My Italian friends however assure me that the ones I've met are "a certain kind of Italian" and not all are like that; in fact most of them match the film's stereotype.

Credo tutto sia questione di punti di vista: è vero che gli italiani che ho conosciuto non rappresentano il cosiddetto "italiano medio", visto che sono soprattutto quelli che hanno scelto di viaggiare o vivere in altri paesi, però è ugualmente vero che la gente tende ad avere una brutta visione della propria cultura e una romanzata delle altre. So di essere caduto in questa trappola io stesso; l'ho già riconosciuto in altri post. L'autoflagellazione culturale va un po' di moda e questo film ne è un bel esempio. In ogni paese si trova ogni tipo di persona. Anche gli scozzesi e i britannici che ho conosciuto durante i miei viaggi erano diversi dalla media, diciamo. Insomma, come molti film che ho visto di recente, mi è piaciuto anche se non sono completamente d'accordo col suo messaggio.

I think it's all a matter of perspective: it's true that the Italians I've met don't represent the so-called "average Italian", since they're mostly the ones who've chosen to travel or live in other countries, but it's equally true that people tend to have a bad image of their own culture and a romanticised one of others. I know that I fell into this trap myself; I've already acknowledged it in other posts. Cultural self-flagellation is quite fashionable and this film's a good example. In every country you can find every kind of person. The Scots and Brits that I've met during my travels were also different from the average, let's say. Overall, like many films I've seen recently, I enjoyed it even if I don't completely agree with its message.

[garyb]

There was a Spanish friend of my flatmate staying a night, one of the ones who was there last time I spoke Spanish which was in... October or November? This time however she preferred English whenever I was in the room, despite saying some things how she remembered my Spanish being good and I should practise it more. To the innocent newbie language learner, statements like that might seem encouraging, but I'm experienced and cynical now. We went out for dinner with some of her other friends, mostly Spanish, but since it was mostly rather than all the conversations tended to stay in English, especially if they thought I might hear. I did overhear some Spanish from the other side of the table and didn't have any trouble understanding. The crowd was mostly postgraduate students and researchers, and to their credit their English was better than that of the average Spaniard living here. There was an Italian guy there too and we chatted a bit in his language, and I was out for an Italian friend's birthday the night before so also got plenty practice then.

At my work I was involved in an interview with a Spanish-speaking candidate. Her understanding of English wasn't the best and at times I was almost tempted to explain something in Spanish, but of course knew that trying to practice my rusty language wouldn't have been appropriate in that kind of professional situation. I thought that if she does join the company she might be willing to help me practise, but for now I'm not sure whether she will.

I'm starting to consider renaming my log "Gary almost speaks Spanish".

On the non-speaking side, I've almost finished Sé quién eres and I'm fitting in a bit more radio and podcasts.

[Cavesa]

Aaaaand we are back to the theme of the natives of the romance languages switching to English

It sounds so easy with the usual advice "just keep talking in Spanish to them", but the real life situations can be so uncomfortable for this!
It can be a socially awkward situation with no clear solution.

but I'm experienced and cynical now

The language skills "praise" is making it feel worse, true. You have my sympathy.
I would probably address the person more stubbornly in Spanish or even directly joked about the disparity in such a situation, but that is a different personality type, I worry about opinions of others sometimes too little for my own good So, I admire your patience with people.

I wonder about one thing though. An option to carry around language books and similar stuff has been talked about a few times over the years. Would it work in such a situation? Some people are not used to carrying a small library in their handbag at all time like me (I was told my bag would work on a thief like Thor's hammer ), but some examples are still pretty natural. Would having obviously read Spanish books in the room help? Or watching tv in Spanish and similar stuff that flatmates usually notice? Or do you think it wouldn't make a difference at all?

[garyb]

Aaaaand we are back to the theme of the natives of the romance languages switching to English

Of course It's my log, it was only going to last so long without the topic of switching coming up! And it's been a while because I've not spoken much for a while, apart from with friends with whom I usually speak Italian already.

It sounds so easy with the usual advice "just keep talking in Spanish to them", but the real life situations can be so uncomfortable for this!
It can be a socially awkward situation with no clear solution.

I agree. It really depends on the situation. Whenever I find myself in a group with Spanish speakers, there's always at least one non-Spanish-speaker too and I'm not selfish enough to exclude them from the conversation just for a little practice. Also these days I'm less bothered about switching to be honest, and that also means I'm less insistent. If people really want to speak English, especially here in an English-speaking country, I'll let them.

Maybe I've become too passive, but it's mainly because my relationship with languages has changed in the last year or so. I still love languages but I've lost the desire to "fit in with the natives". That evening I was tired and was happy to just relax and socialise which is much easier in my native language that everyone at the table spoke very well than in a sub-B2 one. I didn't want to turn a laid-back meal into a linguistic power-struggle either. I've had so many of these social struggles (linguistic and otherwise) in the last few years that I'm tired of them and they just make me feel bad. Now I prefer to avoid them when I can. I'm happier now even if my language progress is slower.

It's partly just luck too. If I had happened to be at the other end of the table, where the Spaniards were concentrated, it might have been easier to join their conversations. Also if I had walked home with my flatmate and the guest rather than going to meet another friend afterwards, I might have had more time to re-convince the guest. Since I'm not actively pursuing opportunities to speak at the moment, I suppose I can only rely on luck...

I would probably address the person more stubbornly in Spanish or even directly joked about the disparity in such a situation, but that is a different personality type, I worry about opinions of others sometimes too little for my own good So, I admire your patience with people.

I did things like this quite a few times in Italy! Especially in situations where my Italian was clearly better than their English. The joke approach definitely takes them by surprise and gets a reaction - it's a real "pattern interrupt". It worked a few times, and when it didn't it was with people who were unpleasant anyway. I'm less confident to do it in Spanish though, given my level and the vicious circle of not being confident to speak because I don't speak frequently.

I wonder about one thing though. An option to carry around language books and similar stuff has been talked about a few times over the years. Would it work in such a situation? Some people are not used to carrying a small library in their handbag at all time like me (I was told my bag would work on a thief like Thor's hammer ), but some examples are still pretty natural. Would having obviously read Spanish books in the room help? Or watching tv in Spanish and similar stuff that flatmates usually notice? Or do you think it wouldn't make a difference at all?

These tactics are based on the idea that if natives just know that you're learning their language, they'll happily speak to you in it. In my experience this is usually untrue, especially if you're not in the country. For example, my current and previous Italian flatmates knew from the start that I was learning Italian and spoke it quite well, yet it still took a lot of effort and assertiveness over a long period to convince them to speak it with me. My current flatmates are very aware of my Spanish studies and have even joked about my "soap operas" because I'm always watching things with shouting and arguing in Spanish (usually actually crime or comedy, but there's always drama involved!). This particular guest even spoke Spanish with me the last time we met. My conclusion is that awareness isn't enough and people need convincing, often repeatedly. If you just tell someone you're learning their language, the best you can usually expect is a reply like "oh, that's nice".

Overall, assertiveness is perhaps the most important skill for a language learner, and like in every other area of life, being too nice will hold you back. And I should do something to break that vicious circle, maybe some self-talk or some occasional lessons with a tutor if talking with a real person is part of the problem.

[Cavesa]

Maybe I've become too passive, but it's mainly because my relationship with languages has changed in the last year or so. I still love languages but I've lost the desire to "fit in with the natives". That evening I was tired and was happy to just relax and socialise which is much easier in my native language that everyone at the table spoke very well than in a sub-B2 one. I didn't want to turn a laid-back meal into a linguistic power-struggle either. I've had so many of these social struggles (linguistic and otherwise) in the last few years that I'm tired of them and they just make me feel bad. Now I prefer to avoid them when I can. I'm happier now even if my language progress is slower.

Sometimes I wonder about those people, who so ardently preach the "just keep speaking in their language and everything will turn fine" strategy. Whether they are really perceived as positively as they think or at least as they present it on the internet. I don't doubt there are many people with much better social skills than mine, more outgoing, more positively presenting themselves, better at making a good impression and making people like them and want to be liked.

But I simply cannot believe all those situations described in language blogs or on youtube are just naturally laid back with everyone happy to accept the learner's stubborness. A part of them must be power struggles lost by the natives. And I don't think such a victory should automatically be perceived just as another successful practice opportunity and proof that it is all just about attitude. Perhaps the most successful "just speak and speak" learners just lack the bad feeling you describe.

However, being able to win such a power struggle and do well on the other person's own ground feels great in certain situations. Such as the moments, when someone tries to be patronising and put me in the position of a stupid foreigner who needs the wise native to graciously dumb stuff down for me.

I would probably address the person more stubbornly in Spanish or even directly joked about the disparity in such a situation, but that is a different personality type, I worry about opinions of others sometimes too little for my own good So, I admire your patience with people.

I did things like this quite a few times in Italy! Especially in situations where my Italian was clearly better than their English. The joke approach definitely takes them by surprise and gets a reaction - it's a real "pattern interrupt". It worked a few times, and when it didn't it was with people who were unpleasant anyway. I'm less confident to do it in Spanish though, given my level and the vicious circle of not being confident to speak because I don't speak frequently.

A good strategy then, thanks for confirming it works
But it's hard to find a way out of the vicious circle, I agree. This "joke" has definitely risen up on my list of solutions to the switching natives.

These tactics are based on the idea that if natives just know that you're learning their language, they'll happily speak to you in it. In my experience this is usually untrue, especially if you're not in the country. For example, my current and previous Italian flatmates knew from the start that I was learning Italian and spoke it quite well, yet it still took a lot of effort and assertiveness over a long period to convince them to speak it with me. My current flatmates are very aware of my Spanish studies and have even joked about my "soap operas" because I'm always watching things with shouting and arguing in Spanish (usually actually crime or comedy, but there's always drama involved!). This particular guest even spoke Spanish with me the last time we met. My conclusion is that awareness isn't enough and people need convincing, often repeatedly. If you just tell someone you're learning their language, the best you can usually expect is a reply like "oh, that's nice"

I think the tactics is not based on the idea that the natives will happily speak the language, if they know I am learning it. We know this is not true, otherwise the switching natives wouldn't be such a huge subject of discussion. The tactics is based on the idea of clear signals, that I am good enough to not cause any complications or discomfort to the native. Of course I don't expect more than "oh, that's nice", natives of the popular languages automatically imagine a learner=a beginner butchering the language and knowing nothing useful. But I'd be counting more on the combination of factors, on the sum of these impressions getting over the native's treshold.

Like the "external symptoms of an advanced enough level" lowering the required level of assertiveness.

But you are more experienced in this area than me, so I definitely believe you.

Overall, assertiveness is perhaps the most important skill for a language learner, and like in every other area of life, being too nice will hold you back. And I should do something to break that vicious circle, maybe some self-talk or some occasional lessons with a tutor if talking with a real person is part of the problem.

Yep, it is all about assertiveness. Which puts all the more shy learners at a disadvantage, or people who care more about everyone in the group feeling comfortable in the situation. The social interests can often be in direct conflict with the learning interests.

I find this sad. Not just because of the missed opportunities of people, who are still learning to be assertive about this. But I think the current popular "speaking to natives asap is the priority" trend in the language learning community shows just one type of personality to be the "good learner". From those blogs, and youtube, and discussions, it basically boils down to a too clear line between the assertive and slightly self-centered learners who get a lot of practice, and the "bad learners" who may just be reluctant to bother others with their wishes and goals too much.