Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

I went to a German meetup last night: a bit of an impulse decision that was perhaps inspired by a chat with a colleague in Germany about languages. The whole group was speaking at first, and I felt very on the spot when it was my turn (although at least I didn't shy away from taking a turn!), but as the evening went on it broke into smaller groups and I had a good one-to-one chat with a more advanced learner. The level was high as usual: a couple of native speakers were there, and most of the non-natives were pretty good.

I'd say that my speaking was a bit better than in my iTalki lesson a couple of weeks ago; it's really hard to compare a one-on-one session to a bigger group situation, but I think I had improved at some of the grammatical points that I had noted although I did still stumble a bit with conditional sentences. Vocabulary was the the biggest obstacle as always, but I was able to use some of the words that I've picked up or revised in recent weeks. So I'd say things are on the right track, and maybe I'll attend more regularly from now on. A lesson or a meetup every two weeks seems like an ideal pace to keep up the feedback loop of being aware of weaknesses and working on them, which I think is the key to improving speaking.

I'm enjoying Linguno, so thanks again to jeffers for the recommendation. It's just the ticket for practising German verb forms, which is still one of these weaknesses at times, and it's nice that it uses complete sentences. It's a little rough around the edges (I sometimes need to press keys a couple of times, I've found and reported a couple of minor inconsistencies, and the sound and sentence audio playback takes so long to start after answering that I didn't even realise it was there for my first couple of rounds!) and there's a bit of unnecessary gamification, but all in all it does what it should and doesn't get in the user's way too much.

My other slight weakness (that I probably mentioned last time) is time expressions; I just can't overstate how important it is to have these down very solidly. Anything to do with next/last day, week, year, before and after, etc. comes up all the time in conversations.

Japanese

The same colleague tried to talk me into signing up for a JLPT exam, perhaps N4 in December. I don't know much about the JLPT so I've no idea how realistic that is, but my initial feeling is that it could be possible if I keep up the hard work throughout the year. N5 would be an easier target, but taking a test just on the very basics feels a little pointless. It would be like going for an A1 German test.

This brings up another particularity of Japanese learners: taking at least one JLPT exam seems to be an obligatory part of learning the language. That's a slight exaggeration, but it seems to pretty much be the norm both in online communities and among learners I've known in real life!

Learners of European languages, on the other hand, tend to only take CEFR exams if they need or anticipate needing the qualification for work or studies; just taking them "for fun" and to gauge or validate one's level is fairly uncommon although it does happen. And this is in spite of (...or because of?!) CEFR exams seeming to be a much more comprehensive test of ability to use the language, while the JLPT (based on my very basic understanding) seems to be more about knowledge of the language and doesn't really test production.

Taking a test for French or Italian has crossed my mind at various points over the years but it's never seemed worthwhile, especially with their focus on formal/academic language. But this JLPT challenge is still tempting... peer pressure?

Genki: lesson 6 is about -te forms of verbs, which Michel Thomas did cover but it only taught a handful of verbs and it taught the ones that didn't fit into the "normal" pattern as exceptions to the rule. Turns out that that was a big simplification (not that that's a bad thing at the start) and the rules are a lot more involved! So I think this one will need some attention and practice, but these forms are so common that I should get a feel for them soon enough.

WaniKani: I finished Level 4 yesterday, which was pretty quick compared to the previous levels, although it felt like a crawl to the finish line in the last few days. Some of the vocabulary is getting very confusing, with all the different combinations and readings, so I might slow down the pace a little again. I'm getting a lot of reviews wrong, partly due to bad typing especially on mobile which is frustrating (time to look into user scripts for an undo feature?) but it's mostly just genuinely not remembering. The creators claim that levels 5 to 10 have more "useful" vocabulary, as opposed to vocabulary that just happens to be based on simpler Kanji, which hopefully means more overlap with the vocabulary I'm learning in other places...

[gsbod]

Regarding the JLPT, I think the pros and cons are similar to a CEFR exam. N2 and N1 are more meaningful in terms of demonstrating language ability (and comparable to B2 and C1 in that respect).

N4 by December would be doable if that leaves you enough time to finish both volumes of Genki and do some exam specific study on top of that. I've heard the exams tend to get booked up early these days, so if you want to do it you'll need to be ready to commit as soon as booking opens.

I didn't do N5 or N4, as I didn't see the point. I did N3 which was useful as a stepping stone to the more intimidating N2, especially as I hadn't sat an exam for nearly a decade at that point, and passing N3 comfortably gave me a much needed confidence boost before tackling N2 6 months later. I wouldn't say it's essential though.

I envy your German meetup. My group didn't get back together after the pandemic (most of the regulars had moved away for various reasons). I miss it.

[golyplot]

I'd recommend taking a practice exam before signing up for the test to see how ready you feel. The official site has two past exams on it, and there's a Google Drive link floating around Reddit that has every past exam up to 2021.

Personally, I didn't bother taking an actual JLPT until the N2. I'm surprised how many people take lower levels. I suspect that a lot of them are people in actual Japanese classes where the teacher encourages them to take it. And the fact that it is less comprehensive than the European tests probably does make it more attractive as well.

Also, congrats on being able to speak German, I really wish I could put myself out there like that and actually practice speaking Japanese.

[garyb]

Thanks for the info, gsbod and golyplot!

I agree that the lower-level tests seem a bit pointless. I wouldn't have even considered taking anything below N3 until it was suggested to me yesterday, but as I say I'm tempted by the peer pressure! I think my colleague would be aiming for N2 at that time.

Considering I'm already halfway though Genki 1 and it's just February, finishing both books and extra study seems quite doable by the end of the year at my current rate. But I really have no idea if I'll be able to keep up my current rate, since life is unpredictable and I'm considering a move this year, so that's another thing putting me off committing in advance. I might keep "reach N4 level" as a very loose goal for this year even if I don't bother with the test.

I suppose I should make the most of the German group while it's there! It's the kind of situation where it would've been hard not to speak, especially as it split into smaller groups later on. That's one huge advantage of in-person meetups versus online ones; I've never been to an online language meetup, but I remember that a big frustration with social video calls during lockdown was the way that a big group never splits into a smaller one so the quieter people rarely get a chance to speak.

[golyplot]

But I really have no idea if I'll be able to keep up my current rate, since life is unpredictable and I'm considering a move this year, so that's another thing putting me off committing in advance.

You only have to commit in August, when the test signups are.

[jeffers]

Regarding unneccesary exams, I sat the French A2 exam last June, simply because it fell during my holiday. The B1 exam would have been a better match, but the timing didn't fit, and anyway since I didn't need the paper for anything, I liked the idea of an exam I could smash over barely scraping a B1 pass. The experience was really good, and it was definitely worth the time and money. First of all, it motivated me to work on things I had mostly ignored up to that point, especially writing. In addition, it gave me a definite sense of achievement. Finally, it gave me a realistic sense of where I was with the language, and therefore where I needed to progress if I want to get to higher levels. If possible and convenient, I would definitely sit exams in Hindi and German. I imagine for a lot of Japanese learners, going through the exams from the lowest ones would be a lot like levelling up in games. "N5 complete! Achievement unlocked!"

[garyb]

Interesting thoughts on exams, thanks all! Not having to commit until August is good news.

Another slightly slow week since I was away for a couple of days, but I've caught up at the weekend and finished Genki lesson 6.

So far I'm sticking with my intention to watch more target-language films. I saw Perfect Days, which was nice. Not very dialogue-heavy, but enough to hear some words and phrases I know in context. I also finally caught Madres Paralelas, which was a strange one and not exactly Almodóvar's strongest but still a good dose of Spanish exposure, and in German I saw Keinohrhasen which I think my language level is still a bit too low to really appreciate but I did at least use German subtitles rather than English.

Perfect Days was also good for a bit of reading practice since it had a lot of shots of streets and road signs in Tokyo. It was a nice challenge to see how many kanji I recognised and whether I could read things for the short time that they were in-shot. It made me realise that my Hiragana reading speed, while still not very fast, has improved noticeably but Katakana is still quite slow. I'm seeing a lot more Hiragana in my resources so I get more practice.

I'm also trying to read a bit more again. So I restarted my tradition of reading Murakami books in Spanish (since my Japanese is likely a good few years from that point!) and picked up my virtual half-finished copy of Escucha la canción del viento y Pinball 1973, which is again a strange one. And I'd like to get into reading in German, but I don't fancy trying to slog through Harry Potter again so I went for something a bit easier and grabbed the whole Café in Berlin series of readers. That should keep me busy and hopefully get me up to proper-books level.

I was supposed to be in Spain right now but things happened, but today I've started considering a surfing trip there in a month or so. So of course I want to brush up on my Spanish. I watched a couple of Easy Spanish videos; I know that I'm maybe too advanced for learner material, but then if you've been following my log you might know my thoughts on how that phrase is nonsense and how material aimed at learners can be useful at any level. Spontaneous street interviews with Spanish speakers is never not going to be a useful thing to watch. I'm also catching up with good old Futuro Abierto, but it's perhaps less challenging and less useful for everyday conversation despite being aimed at natives...

It reminded me of how rusty my knowledge of idiomatic Spanish is, even little things like the verb soler when talking about things you usually do or that often happen, which I know is basic stuff but is also quite particular to Spanish and as someone who's stronger in Italian and French my first instinct would probably be to phrase it in a less natural way using an adverb.

Japanese is still getting the bulk of my attention, though. I'm persisting with Renshuu despite the bugs and poor UI because I've not found anything better for revising that Genki vocab, plus the audio and the marking of pitch accent is useful and the example sentences give some good reading practice and a chance to see things in context. I dismissed JPDB for now because it doesn't have a deck for volume 3 of Genki, but it's definitely something I'm likely to return to later.

[garyb]

German

Café in Berlin is pretty good for what it is! It took me a bit of time to get used to half of the text being bold, but now it's no big deal. The language level is appropriate: simple but not too unnatural, and very everyday, so unlike with a "real" novel I can be confident that pretty much any sentence I highlight and put into Anki will be worthwhile. It's helping to fill in some gaps.

It's another case of learner material being more useful than native material, although a less controversial one given my German level! I don't know why I dismissed graded readers for so long (okay, this one isn't "graded" but that seems to be the term!) and tried to go straight onto Harry Potter; I suppose it was another hangover from my old "I've learnt a few Romance languages therefore I know how to learn a language!" days. With Italian and Spanish, going straight into real novels was quite feasible, although ones for learners also wouldn't have hurt.

I also think that this type of input could be more useful than the documentaries I've been watching, again because it's more focused on everyday language, although I'd still say that listening usually beats reading. I think audiobooks for the series are available in case I want to read and listen.

Oh yeah, and I've now pretty much decided that in mid-April once I (hopefully!) complete my probation period at work, I'm going to ask for the transfer to Berlin. I still have a month and a half to change my mind though, and it's not guaranteed, but I suppose the priority for now is to get my head down to make sure that I pass the probation and am in "good standing" to request the move! If it goes well I might even catch the end of the nice Berlin summer, but there are still a lot of variables so I don't want to speak too soon.

I also gave some thought to Spain, since the company has an office there too (in Madrid, but remote could also be possible) since I know the language better and might prefer the weather and lifestyle, but I think Berlin wins out for practical reasons: I have friends and colleagues there, it's likely far easier to find another good job there if the current one doesn't work out, and the possibility of EU residence after only a couple of years (and maybe even citizenship, if the current proposals pass!) is very appealing. Spain could still be an option for the future.

That's given me more motivation for German, especially speaking, and I'm planning to book another iTalki lesson this week and perhaps attend the meetup next week, although right now motivation isn't exactly my problem! The problem is finding the time and energy for it all.

Japanese

I'm keeping up with the apps and input, but finding time for Genki is getting harder.

To continue the thread about graded readers: I'm now really starting to see why Japanese learners tend to be so into reading. With kanji, the meaning of words is so connected with how they're written. I thought it would be a long time before I considered watching anything with Japanese subtitles, but now I feel that with the films and series I'm watching it could be very useful just to see how the words are written and make the connection when I've come across them in other places like WaniKani. Along with English subtitles, of course, but the options for parallel subtitles are limited although I did find some decent tools to generate them in the past. I was seeing in gsbod's log that there are more J-dramas coming onto Netflix, so I might finally be convinced to subscribe again and work with Language Reactor. All the more so since I've been upping the input in my other languages too.

Similarly, the selling point of Hiragana: Forbidden Speech is also becoming its weakness: it would be more useful if it included kanji, with furigana and with no expectation to learn them, but just to be able to see them.

Spanish

I switched from a Spanish-English dictionary to a monolingual one for my reading. I actually think that the benefits of doing so are hugely overrated, but it's still worth it just because the Kindle translation dictionaries are so damn bad that I might as well use something better if I can!

[jeffers]

Café in Berlin and the rest of the series are great because the author does a good job at keeping it simple but still writing engaging stories. The audio has to be purchased separtely, and is only available on Audible as far as I know. I found the audio for the first book to be painfully slow, even for a raw beginner. My main complaint is that the author wasn't actually speaking the words that slowly but rather leaving awkward pauses between words. I skipped the audio for books 2-3, but bought the audiobooks for books 4 & 5, which were better. Still slower than I would want, but acceptable.

[garyb]

The audio has to be purchased separtely, and is only available on Audible as far as I know. I found the audio for the first book to be painfully slow, even for a raw beginner. My main complaint is that the author wasn't actually speaking the words that slowly but rather leaving awkward pauses between words. I skipped the audio for books 2-3, but bought the audiobooks for books 4 & 5, which were better. Still slower than I would want, but acceptable.

Ah that's a disappointment, but thanks for sharing the info! I'm really not a fan of unnaturally-slow audio, and I don't even see the need for it: in my experience, if I can understand that kind of audio then I can also understand audio that is slow and clear but still natural, and it's much less painful to listen to and more suitable to imitate. The Genki audio right from the start fits that description, and Assimil's audio is only slow for the first seven lessons if I remember well.

I can only speak for myself though, and I'm sure it's not easy for native speakers to find that sweet spot of "slow and clear but still natural". Maybe unnaturally-slow audio has a place for people who insist in getting comprehensible input from the very beginning.


I just had my German lesson, which went much better than the last one. It was still a struggle at times, but I felt my recent work paying off and I was a bit better at taking my time and letting myself think when I wasn't sure how to say something. I was advised to work more on accusative and dative endings and on reported speech, since I made a lot of mistakes with these. As usual, knowing grammar in theory is one thing but applying it on the fly while speaking is quite another, and reported speech isn't something I've actually worked on much since it doesn't tend to come up until B1-level resources. On the other hand, vocabulary wasn't as big a problem as usual, partly because I knew what we were going to talk about and did some preparation beforehand but again I think my recent study is also having results. Verb conjugation went better too, and I think Linguno has helped.

I found my tutor a bit hard to understand at times, which was another surprise since I'm usually okay with comprehension, but I suppose that working with someone who is a bit harder to understand than average isn't a bad thing!

We also spoke a few words of Spanish, which was fun but then I had to switch gears back to German.