Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Finished the first series of El ministerio del tiempo and started Mar de plástico, which is a change of pace. Not sure yet what to think of it, but the small town setting is an interesting change from the usual big-city crime dramas. It's tough to understand at times, but I'm watching it on Netflix with Spanish subs.

At the weekend I had one of these moments of doubt when I heard a family speaking some Latin American form of Spanish: not only could I barely understand a thing, but it took a few sentences to even realise that it was Spanish they were speaking! At first I thought it was Portuguese or something, as the intonation seemed a bit Brazilian. Nothing to worry about of course, I know it's common for more advanced learners and even native speakers to have problems with regional variations, but at times I wonder if I can really claim to understand Spanish.

I've been reading La luna e il falò by Cesare Pavese in Italian, a 20th-century classic that's well-loved by Italians, but to be honest I'm finding it downright dull and unengaging. It's one of these books that's quite short yet feels five times longer than it is. Maybe you have to have grown up in the country to have the cultural and historic background to appreciate it, or maybe if I slog on I'll appreciate its beauty at the end.

La resistencia, on the other hand, is far from a classic but is very readable and I'm already two-thirds through. It's also feeding my recently-started Spanish Anki deck well, since the language is quite simple and non-literary. If you want high-quality original fantasy writing, look elsewhere, but it's an easy read and, at least for someone who doesn't read much of the genre, quite fun with all the clichés of dragons and unicorns and enchanted legendary swords.

Otherwise, my week didn't quite go as planned and I still haven't opened Breaking Out.... While motivation isn't a big problem for me, adding things into my routine can be.

[garyb]

Not updated for a couple of weeks because I've not had lots to say. Languages are definitely taking a back seat at the moment: I'm putting more time into music and besides I've currently got no travel plans, no opportunities to use languages regularly besides Italian, and not much excitement in my studies. As the summer gets closer I do at times feel tempted to change these; I've not felt a big enough push yet but I reckon it's on the way.

Finished the first La resistencia book. Even if I didn't love it, I decided to continue to the second since the story was enjoyable enough and I figured a couple hundred more pages of simple Spanish could only do me good. So far I'm finding this second one a little too "young adult" and teenage girl-y, which wasn't really an impression I got from the first which was more just second-rate general fantasy/sci-fi in which the characters happened to be teenage. I suppose because this one is set when the main characters are a couple of years older and there's more focus on their feelings. I'll probably still continue it since I've started and I'm curious about how the story will continue.

Pavese is still unengaging despite the story becoming more dramatic. I'm about three quarters through now so at this point I'm just going to finish it so I can say I've read it and impress Italians at parties. Or, more likely, make them think I'm even more weird and crazy than they already do when they find out I study the language.

Thanks to Cavesa for mentioning that Kwiziq has some C1 stuff now. I find the level in itself a bit meaningless since the site is so focused on grammar and I don't think that grammar really links up to CEFR levels beyond the As and trying to force it into that structure becomes very arbitrary, but it'll be a nice change from being asked the same few "B2" questions every time.

Regarding "Breaking out...", I bought the paperback because I found it cheaper but I reckon if I got the ebook version I'd maybe actually read it! Half the problem is that when I am in the mood for using it I don't have the book to hand.

[garyb]

I bought the "Breaking out" ebook and, surprise surprise, I'm actually reading it now! It's always about finding a way to fit things into your routine.

I had a Spanish surprise last night: the friend of my flatmate turned up and started speaking to me at full speed. I'll never look a gift horse in the mouth, but the timing couldn't have been worse for language performance: I was tired, about to go to bed, and I had just been working on music production for a couple of hours so my mind was still absorbed in that and I wasn't in a sociable mindset. I struggled to understand what she was saying, let alone respond, and stared blankly for several seconds while my mind processed the sounds. By some miracle even that didn't cause her to switch, and I'm not going to tempt fate by saying that in that particular instance I'd have happily used English

What to take from that experience? Probably not much to be honest, since I acknowledge that I was near the bottom of the range of normal ups and downs in ability. It did yet again make me realise that my listening comprehension has a long way to go, but that's nothing new. I have become a bit lazy again recently with my input, relying too much on the subtitles without paying much attention to the audio. I pretty much believe that L2 subtitles are God's gift to language learners and it's a shame that some people are so against them, but they're just one tool and must be used properly: as an aid to listening, not a substitute (otherwise you're just practising reading!), and complemented with enough non-subtitled listening.

When I was learning French and Italian I was going out and speaking all the time so I got plenty of real conversational input to balance out the scripted and subtitled material, while with Spanish that part is mostly missing. Most of my non-subtitled input is trivially easy material like podcasts - good for reinforcing language but not much help for learning to decipher natural speech - and I'd probably do well to add in some videos or audio with more conversation and no subs. Overall though, I repeat that it's simply a skill that takes a long time to develop, especially in this language.

I'm realising that regular speaking does solve quite a lot of problems in language learning. Beyond the obvious practice of the skill, keeping off the rust, and the exposure to real conversations I've just described, it also creates a much stronger feedback loop of knowing where you're at and what you need to work on, leading to more motivation to be prepared for the next conversation and stay focused on your studies. If I believe I won't need to speak the language any time soon, I can get lazy. I have said I'm taking things slowly with Spanish, but that's not an excuse for not applying myself properly to the work I am doing.

[garyb]

Another busy couple of weeks so just fitting in languages when I can.

Italian: An Italian friend of friend was visiting at the weekend and I was able to speak quite a lot. My Italian is as ever really: pretty good on a good day although still plenty small mistakes and words or expressions that just won't come to mind when I need them. Maybe in another few years it'll be slightly better on a good day with slightly fewer mistakes and slightly more words at my grasp. I'm accepting that that's just how spare-time out-of-country language learning goes. I could speed up the process a little with more input and more speaking and more writing and more study and more lessons and more time in Italy, but for now it's not important enough to me.

I always admire posters here who periodically mention that a certain language is "just part of their life now" and they "don't need to work on it", but I'm not sure if I'll ever quite reach that point. Italian's now a part of my life insomuch as I speak it at home and exchange online messages most days and use it almost exclusively with a few friends, but speaking is still a conscious effort even if an enjoyable one and I feel very far from being able to do it naturally, with little thought. I don't think it's just a question of level: it partly comes back to one of my favourite subjects, the trade-off between fluency and accuracy, and my desire to speak correctly is perhaps holding me back from letting it come out naturally. Again I think of the Italian and Spanish people I know who mostly speak English inaccurately yet fluently. Yet as I say I still make plenty little mistakes even with this conscious attention so I don't know what mess would come out without it! These people also have the advantage of immersion: when you use the language all day at home and work, you really get used to it, and even my "speaking a bit most days" is a drop in the ocean in comparison.

Spanish: No more surprise speaking opportunities unfortunately! I did just finish the second book of La resistencia, which despite my misgivings I quite enjoyed for what it was. Looking past the sillier parts of the plot, the author does know how to keep the reader interested. I am tempted to continue with the next part of the series, which is also split into several books, but they're not the cheapest books either... I'll probably read the next one and then move onto something else for some variety.

Still slowly watching Mar de plástico and still not putting my other ideas (more active study, more listening to material with real conversation) into practice much. Again it's just priorities: I find it hard to justify putting any more time into Spanish when music is far more important to me right now. However I do still want to reach a decent Spanish level in the next few years and that won't happen at my current pace! I'm trying to fit what I can into downtime at work etc. but I've not had much of that either. I suppose there's always scope for wasting less time on things like social media; not every moment has to be productive, and that way of thinking is what used to burn me out, but there's a balance.

Any recommendations for more challenging podcasts, preferably in European Spanish? The usual RTVE stuff (Futuro Abierto, Nómadas etc.) is interesting but just too easy, and I'd be happy for an excuse to kick Español Automatico out of the rotation.

[garyb]

Italian:
I've been getting very little Italian input recently. I've complained that my Spanish isn't progressing as I'd like because it's been all input and no speaking, but my Italian is going the opposite way and the input is just as important a part of the feedback loop. Conversations do give some input, but that's a complement rather than a substitute for other sources. I've started reading Elena Ferrante's Storia del nuovo cognome, the sequel to L'amica geniale which I read last year, and I'm trying to fit in more radio and video when I can.

Spanish:
I spoke a little at the weekend, with an Italian who has a Chilean husband (who unfortunately wasn't present, as that could have been an interesting conversation!) and speaks good Spanish. Again it was just a five-minute conversation so it was hard to conclude much, but it went surprisingly smoothly aside from pauses to remember some words. The basic stuff seemed to be coming out quite automatically. While last time there were various factors working against me, this time a few were in my favour: she spoke clearly so comprehension wasn't taking up all my mental energy; I had had a few beers (the classic language improvement method!); and perhaps I didn't have the psychological barrier from wanting to prove myself that can arise when speaking with natives.

Input wise, I've re-started watching Aquí no hay quien viva to fill in the challenging-non-subtitled-input gap that I've talked about in recent posts. It's a show that has two layers: it's very easy to follow the story and get the main jokes, yet picking up every word and understanding the more subtle humour requires a lot more attention and a higher level of comprehension. For reading, I've decided to join the read-along and read Pedro Páramo with the cool kids.

Others?
I've been having thoughts about Greek. At the moment I'm struggling to keep up with my current languages, so I'm certainly not planning to add another into the mix, but it's on my mind for the medium term. As I get older (hey, it was my birthday yesterday!) and my grandparents' health worsens, I feel a bit more desire to connect with that part of my heritage. Maybe the successful Spanish conversation also influenced it, making me realise that I'm progressing more than I thought, although by now I should know that drawing conclusions from a single event is dangerous! I also simply don't have much real connection with Spanish any more - I don't have the friendships with native speakers that I had when I first decided to learn it years ago, and I don't romanticise the culture like I perhaps used to - so I'm questioning my original goal of a very high level. I might be happy to just reach a decent B2, which could be within my reach this year or next if I up the effort a little.

Greek a far more difficult language than my others, but on the other hand my ambitions are lower: I just want to be able to understand the gist of conversations, take part in simple ones, and read the alphabet at a reasonable speed. As I say, no plans to pick it up now especially at this busy time of year, but sooner or later I will.

[Spoonary]

Input wise, I've re-started watching Aquí no hay quien viva to fill in the challenging-non-subtitled-input gap that I've talked about in recent posts. It's a show that has two layers: it's very easy to follow the story and get the main jokes, yet picking up every word and understanding the more subtle humour requires a lot more attention and a higher level of comprehension.

I know I have written many times on this forum about how important Aquí no hay quien viva was in my Spanish learning journey, but it was exactly that two-layered humour that allowed me to see real progress. When I started watching the series, I only understood the more obvious jokes, but later on, I found myself understanding the wordplay and cultural humour, which felt great. I still get that same feeling of achievement when I understand comedians nowadays.

Two more things:
- I'm glad you're reading Pedro Páramo with us, but I'm not sure we're the 'cool kids'
- Storia del nuovo cognome is the least interesting book title I think I have ever seen. Hopefully the book will be a bit more interesting than it sounds!

[garyb]

I know I have written many times on this forum about how important Aquí no hay quien viva was in my Spanish learning journey, but it was exactly that two-layered humour that allowed me to see real progress. When I started watching the series, I only understood the more obvious jokes, but later on, I found myself understanding the wordplay and cultural humour, which felt great. I still get that same feeling of achievement when I understand comedians nowadays.

Two more things:
- I'm glad you're reading Pedro Páramo with us, but I'm not sure we're the 'cool kids'
- Storia del nuovo cognome is the least interesting book title I think I have ever seen. Hopefully the book will be a bit more interesting than it sounds!

I can't remember if you were the first to mention it on the old HTLAL but I remember you and others talking about it and it was a great recommendation. It did deceive me a bit at first as it seemed too easy, but now that I watch it again it actually feels more challenging since I'm noticing and struggling to understand the subtleties! It should be good training for understanding conversations too, since there are a lot of group interactions as well as one-to-one and the subject matter is quite everyday.

I've never done the book club thing before! I saw your log post about being too busy and tired to read and I can understand. Pedro Páramo so far isn't exactly relaxing bedtime reading: the narration is all over the place so it takes some effort and attention to follow. At the end of a long day I'm more inclined to read a nice simple linear story (like Memorias de Idhún, which I'm continuing with as well, and it's still Spanish exposure so all good!).

It took me so long to start reading Ferrante because I don't like the titles and I don't like the covers. Plus they're a little expensive by novel standards. Maybe I'm too superficial, literally judging a book by its cover, but it took me a lot of hearing that they're actually good stories to convince me. "Storia" is a little uneventful so far but I've only read the first couple of chapters and it should pick up. Even after reading "L'amica geniale" my feeling was that I enjoyed it enough but wasn't in any rush to continue the series.

[MamaPata]

That's kind of intriguing that it took you a while to want to read Ferrante! I'd heard so much praise for Elena Ferrante that I was quite keen to read some of her works. But she's currently got a sort of a column in the Guardian and it's really not doing it for me. So I've sort of had the opposite experience.

[Spoonary]

Nah, it definitely wasn't me who mentioned ANHQV on HTLAL because I never posted there. I only decided to take part in the forum as it had already begun to be impossible to sign up (as I recall I had a problem activating my account).

The everyday subject matter greatly helped me too. I learned loads of everyday vocabulary such as felpudo and albornoz by watching that series.

Yeah, although I am enjoying Pedro Páramo quite a bit, the only time I get to read it is when I am already exhausted from work, so I don't manage to read more than a few pages at a time before I drop off. I need to get around to reading "Idhún" at some point; I've had it on my to read list for some time.

That's good to know about Ferrante. She's another one I'll get around to someday

[garyb]

I've had some ups and downs over the last week or two but things are mostly running full-steam again. As I mentioned in one of the replies above, I'm reading both Pedro Páramo (during lunch hour, public transport journeys, etc. when I have the mental capacity to follow it) and the second volume of Memorias de Idhún, Tríada (bedtime reading since its language and plot are simpler). That of course doesn't leave much time for Ferrante, so she's just for when I'm not in the mood for Spanish. The situation is similar for listening/TV: Spanish is the main focus these days, although I'm sneaking in bits of Italian when I can.

Reading more of Breaking out of beginner's Spanish. Some of it is a little too beginner-ish for me, like imperfecto versus pretérito and the subjunctive, but the clue's in the name and that stuff would be ideal for a post-beginner new to Romance languages. It's still a great resource and I've learnt some things about the more subtle points of ser versus estar etc., and the parts on usage (adjectives to describe people, greetings, false friends, etc.) are gold. I wish I had had a book like that for my other languages, and I'm sure that even at my current level I'd learn something new from a similar title on Italian. I don't know if anything of the like exists though; most books on Italian are things like "La bella lingua" that focus more on the history and supposed beauty of the language than on how to actually use it, or overly-academic treatments like "Grammatica avanzata", without much practical middle-ground. Most of it is stuff you'd figure out eventually from lots of input and socialising, just as the author did, but why not take shortcuts when you can?

Back to the favourite subjects of online learning with MOOCs and using your languages to pursue your other interests. I finished my music course and I've been looking into others, mostly on Udemy which is a kind of halfway house between Coursera and Youtube: anyone can create a course, so there's a much wider selection, but there are no term dates or peer assessments so the courses are essentially just structured series of videos and documents to follow in your own time. It suits me pretty well for my current purposes of complementing other musical studies and lessons.

Of course I'm having the usual issue: all the best stuff is in English. For guitar for example, I found a good 20 or 25 courses in English covering all sorts of different aspects and styles, while for Spanish and Italian there were just one or two lowest-common-denominator beginner series. I found the same when looking into music books in the past, even for classical guitar which one would expect to find quality material for in Spanish! Maybe I'm just missing something and looking in the wrong places (English-centric sites), as it's a bit surprising that for a subject as universal and popular as music I'm finding so few non-English resources.

There is some great stuff on Youtube, for example LoremaryluGT is an excellent Chilean electric guitar teacher whom I've probably mentioned before, but I find Youtube videos too self-contained and lacking in the structure and progression that an organised course provides. So for now I'm doing my main study with English courses and books, and then using Youtube to revise the concepts and learn the Spanish vocab.