Languages and Life: Gary's log (Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, bits of French)

[garyb]

Last night I did something I hadn't done for a while: recording myself speaking, Italian in this case. The idea came about since I've been practising singing more seriously recently and recording myself can give some helpful if brutal feedback. Those who were reading my log a couple of years ago will remember that I used to write a lot about pronunciation and put a lot of effort into it, however it's been much less of a focus in the last year for a few reasons: languages are a lower priority in general for me, I've grown past the desire to prove myself and fit in with the natives, and I saw so little improvement from all that work that I just accepted that I lack the talent and should focus on the other aspects of my languages.

Still, I did see marginal improvements and concluded a couple of things: going from bad to okay was possible even for me, and frequent checks were needed to maintain it at okay and keep the bad habits at bay. Yet since then I've mostly ignored it. Spending even a few minutes every week or two recording myself and paying attention to obvious flaws would probably benefit me.

The most obvious flaws this time are much the same as the ones I wrote about a few years ago: inconsistent rhythm, intonation all over the place, and a tendency to cut short the last vowel of each syllable group. None of these should be particularly nebulous or require exceptional talent to improve upon, just a bit of conscious attention when speaking. It is a little frustrating that they've not improved much over these last couple of years, including the few months in Italy, but I can't complain when I've not really been trying and it's just more proof of what I knew all along: listening isn't enough. And no, my singing hasn't helped my language pronunciation one bit either, but I'm still not a very good singer so go figure.

If I find the courage I might do the same for Spanish...

[garyb]

A few days ago I got a bass guitar and I've been learning to play it since. Going from regular guitar to bass is a bit like going from one Romance language to another: they have a lot in common, making it easy to pick up the basics and progress quickly, but if you want to be good at it rather than just muddle by you need to see it as an instrument in its own right and get into its mindset.

What's the relevance to my language learning, other than a tenuous metaphor? After realising that the bass is a separate instrument, not just a slightly bigger guitar, I thought it would be useful to follow some instructional material to learn the techniques. A couple of posts ago I complained about the lack of music learning materials in other languages - usually just a token beginner course next to the wide selection in English - but in this case a token beginner course was all I wanted so I've signed up to "Curso de bajo eléctrico nivel 1".

As expected, it's not exactly a masterpiece in pedagogy. The instructor obviously knows his stuff but he's hardly a clear or exciting speaker, and the course is almost reminiscent of primary-school textbooks with its semi-useless information on the history and parts of the instrument followed by silly quizzes. Decidedly far below the standards of any English course I've tried so far. In another language, however, suddenly the irrelevant information becomes a goldmine of domain-specific vocabulary, the quizzes become listening comprehension exercises, and the non-professional delivery becomes practice for real-life speech. You have to make the most of what you get!

In other Spanish news, I was at a dinner last night and there were a few Spanish-speakers there. As usual, not much speaking practice but some listening. Group conversations are becoming a little easier to follow, but it can depend on who's speaking: some have stronger accents or speak less clearly than others. Once again it's the same in any language but I feel that the differences are wider in Spanish than the others I've studied (or at least they don't tone down the regional accents as much as Italians tend to when around people from other areas). On the reading side, I'm over halfway through Pedro Páramo now but to be honest it's not doing much for me. The language is well-written and not too challenging, but the narration just makes it hard to keep track of who's who and what has happened. Maybe it's one of these ones that's significant because it broke new ground and provided inspiration for other great works, rather than being a great work in itself.

[jeff_lindqvist]

A few days ago I got a bass guitar and I've been learning to play it since. Going from regular guitar to bass is a bit like going from one Romance language to another: they have a lot in common, making it easy to pick up the basics and progress quickly, but if you want to be good at it rather than just muddle by you need to see it as an instrument in its own right and get into its mindset.

Moreover, once you reach a certain level (fluency, anyone?), you can leave the instrument for a long time and when you pick it up again, you haven't lost anything except motor skills and stamina. If you play by ear, great! You just need a warm-up session.

During the learning stage, you can do your version of shadowing, chorusing, self-talk, grammar, scriptorium... sprint learning.

Good luck, and have fun!

[garyb]

Moreover, once you reach a certain level (fluency, anyone?), you can leave the instrument for a long time and when you pick it up again, you haven't lost anything except motor skills and stamina. If you play by ear, great! You just need a warm-up session.

During the learning stage, you can do your version of shadowing, chorusing, self-talk, grammar, scriptorium... sprint learning.

Good luck, and have fun!

Thanks!

I did leave the electric guitar for five months when I was travelling last year and was happy to discover that I had hardly lost any ability and got up to my previous level again fairly quickly. The only major problem was that my fingertips had softened from not playing steel strings in that time, so I was in pain for the first few days and had to take it easy while the calluses built up again. I don't know if there's a metaphor in there for my French Similarly, my experience with that is that I just need a bit of time to warm up. After that I'm not quite at the peak when I was studying it actively, but still relatively fluent.

My relative success at language learning has actually influenced my music practice a lot. It's taught me the importance of being solid in the basics in order to do the advanced stuff, and the benefit of having structure and following courses/books rather than just practising randomly and playing the same pieces. I had been on a plateau with my guitar playing for years and had lost motivation because I felt overwhelmed and didn't know where to start with everything I still needed to learn, and these realisations helped me to overcome it. I also don't think it's coincidence that one of the things I struggle most with in music - playing by ear and reproducing what I hear - is similar to my main biggest difficulty in languages, pronunciation.

On the subject of French, I started watching a recent film, Jeune femme, and I'm happy to say that I'm having no trouble understanding it. Fortunately listening comprehension never really goes away. On pronunciation, I had another short Italian recording session and was already seeing a little improvement in rhythm and those final vowels.

[garyb]

I've just spent a long weekend in Oslo visiting friends. I had heard a lot about the linguistic situation there, especially the famously high English level, so it was interesting to observe it. The legend is true, and they even had less difficulty with my Scottish accent than many native English speakers, yet several people in customer service situations kept speaking to me in Norwegian even after I replied in English and clearly didn't understand much. One of my friends there is learning the language, and when she spoke it the natives happily replied in it. She sometimes struggled and had to change to English, but it was always up to her to initiate the switch rather than them. I was very pleasantly surprised by this respect for their country's language and its learners, even if it did cause a couple of awkward situations for me since I don't know much of it! I also got the impression that immigrants there are generally more motivated to learn the language, in contrast to Stockholm which I visited a few years ago where getting by with English seemed the norm.

So is the grass greener on the other side? Not quite. The flip side is usage in social situations, where practical concerns usually take precedence (with the obvious exception of the many younger French speakers who would rather struggle in broken English than swallow their pride and speak their language with advanced learners) and it's usually easier for everyone to just use English. My friend does all her socialising in English, including with her Norwegian boyfriend, and quite understandably: why make life difficult? She did however say that in bigger groups at parties etc. they tend to use more Norwegian and she's often felt excluded, which was one source of motivation to learn it.

It's kinda the opposite of my experience in many parts of Italy, where I can socialise in Italian for hours and then have a barista insist on English, and overall I reckon I have the better deal. Switching in a basic service interaction is a little frustrating for sure, but (for me at least) socialising is much more crucial for reaching an advanced level. Most Italians just find it much easier to converse in their language even with non-natives who speak it imperfectly, and desire to practise aside I prefer to make the effort because they actually listen to me rather than just pretending to understand my English but clearly not following. In Norway I reckon you'd have to be quite fluent and/or stubborn and be keen enough to make the effort while fully knowing that English is an easier option, although this respect for learners I mentioned could be on your side if you're assertive enough about it. I'll be curious to see how my friend gets on as her level improves.

As for Norwegian itself, it's still not a language I'd study seriously unless I went to live there, although I might learn some basics for my next trip. It seems like a language that I could learn to understand fairly quickly: it's not too distant from English, especially Scottish English which has some similar words, and I also noticed a surprising amount of vocabulary close to French. Obviously learning to speak it well would take years, like for any language.

Other language updates:
- I got a message from a French speaker proposing an exchange. I'm tempted to go for it even if I don't study that language any more, since it's a rare opportunity and it would be nice to keep it alive. I also added Spanish to my Conversation Exchange profile in case someone nearby happens to find me.
- Finished Pedro Páramo. My thoughts are the same as before: it didn't do much for me. I could see it was cleverly written and had some interesting cultural significance (Iguanamon's short review helped me to understand that, so thanks!) but to be honest most of the time I just couldn't follow what was going on and when.

[Ogrim]

Thanks for sharing your experience in Oslo. Regarding the Scottish accent, I think many Norwegians have been exposed to it by watching "Scottish" TV shows like the crime series "Rebus", and comedians like Billy Connolly and Frankie Boyle were (are?) quite popular in Norway. Personally I find Scottish accents sometimes even easier to understand than certain American accents. (Although I remember some years ago taking a taxi in Glasgow - I hardly understood a word of what the cab driver was saying.)

About switching to English: When my wife, who does not speak Norwegian terribly well, is with my family, they will speak English if there are just four or five of us, but in big family parties they will speak Norwegian most of the time, and she can sometimes feel excluded as you mention. I think it is just hard for people to keep up a conversation in a foreign language just to accommodate one person - most of my family members speak English very well, but not to a level where they can engage in a vivid and animated conversation for a long time.

[Expugnator]

It was so interesting to read about the situation in Norway as compared to France! If I ever go to Oslo one day, I think I'd pretend not to speak any English - actually many immigrants who come to Norway don't know any English and end up learning Norwegian at the subventioned classes (correct me if I'm wrong, Norwegians), so it seems that they don't assume foreigner = English, especially not from underdeveloped countries.

[garyb]

Thanks for the responses! Good to hear that others' experiences are similar. Seems like if you speak Norwegian then they will, which is nice. I've heard bad things about Denmark for example - a friend said that they take it as an insult to their English skills if you try to use Danish there - so I'm happy that that's not true for all of Scandinavia (and I realise that my friend's is just one anecdotal experience). Regarding the group conversations, it's important to keep in mind that in most cases English is a second language as opposed to a bilingual native one, so even if they speak it very well they might not quite have the same ease as in their native language in these animated group conversations.


The French exchange seems good so far. We've just done text chat, which I've never really done in French before; between that and the rustiness it felt strange at first, but it's been a good way to refresh my knowledge and see the gaps in it. I think my knowledge is still pretty good in theory - even now when I can't remember a word in Italian it's often the French one that comes to mind first - but compared to my Italian there are plenty gaps in practical language (informal conversation, everyday subjects like work, etc.) since I've just never had the same level of exposure and practice. I still also have a few odd grammatical doubts like whether to use "il" or "ce" or "ça" in a given phrase, as the theory of definite vs. indefinite etc. doesn't always match the usage. Overall it's nice to use the language again even if I don't have serious ambitions with it, and hopefully we'll go onto verbal conversation too. I'm getting a little input too, continuing the latest series of Engrenages that I started a few months ago but didn't finish.

I also got a message from someone offering both Italian and Spanish practice, which was an offer too good to resist. Obviously it's early days for these exchanges and I don't know yet whether they'll go anywhere or I'll have the time to keep them up, but it's nice to use my languages a bit.

[Ogrim]

It was so interesting to read about the situation in Norway as compared to France! If I ever go to Oslo one day, I think I'd pretend not to speak any English - actually many immigrants who come to Norway don't know any English and end up learning Norwegian at the subventioned classes (correct me if I'm wrong, Norwegians), so it seems that they don't assume foreigner = English, especially not from underdeveloped countries.

As an émigré I am not the best witness for how things are in Norway today, but I think you are right. Maybe people are not aware, but Norway has seen various "waves" of immigration throughout the last 50-60 years, work immigration from Pakistan in the 1960s, political refugees from Chile in the 1970s-1980s, war refugees from the Balkans in the early 1990s, workers from Poland in the early 2000, unemployed Spaniards around 2008-2010 and in later years Afghans, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians. None of these groups of immigrants would be expected to speak English very well.

[garyb]

The French exchange might have some potential: done some more text chatting, and hopefully some real conversation soon. The Spanish/Italian one however seems like it was too good to be true, with two cancelled appointments and a vague "I'll let you know" for another one. Probably the usual case where somebody likes the idea of an exchange but then realises they don't actually have the time to commit to one. One out of two is pretty good, and these days I already practise Italian enough at home so I'd be better finding someone for just Spanish.

Having some French back in my life is nice, but it's making me want to watch all the series and films and read all the books that have been on my list for the last couple of years. French media, TV especially, is generally a cut above Spanish and Italian stuff so I'm happy to have an excuse. This means even less time for my Spanish and Italian which are currently going at a snail's pace, especially as there's been a lot of social life going on in the last few weeks, mostly not with speakers of my target languages.

Spanish is mostly reading at the moment: still on Tríada, which has become less silly and more of a proper long fantasy story although it still has some typically-Spanish absurd plot twists. On the subject of those, I still have a few more episodes of Mar de plástico to go. I'm currently getting through about one per week, along with Aquí no hay quien viva at a similar pace.