Grayson's Language Log

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grayson
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Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:10 pm

I've always loved languages – truly loved them and wanted to make them mine. When I was not yet four, the story goes, I asked my mother if she would teach me Spanish. (Not knowing it herself, she had to decline.) In shops and buses and airports, I was transfixed by the puzzle of strangers saying things I couldn't understand. Was that a Scandinavian lilt, perhaps? Was that the /zh/ of French or Portuguese? For decades, in high school and beyond, I couldn't leave a bookstore without a shiny new language book in hand – some inexorable current always nudged me into that section of the shop, no matter what I'd actually come for.

All those grammars and dictionaries and audiobooks still line shelves throughout my house, and over the decades I've looked at them through varying lenses: desire, disappointment, discomfort. All these unused relics! What a waste of money, what a naïve exercise in wishful thinking. But that changed when I stumbled across the following sentence in Alexander Argüelles' "Path of the Polyglot":

Although I had no time to use them then, I began acquiring grammars, manuals, and tapes in a systematic fashion so as to build a language learning resource center for my future studies.


In an instant, my dusty shelves were reframed. Indeed, I had built quite a resource center for myself – I just hadn't realized it was for me at 55, not me at 25 or 30 or 40. What a wonderful, magical sentence: two dozen words with the power to rewrite the story I told myself. I hadn't spent decades failing to learn more languages; I'd spent decades preparing to learn them, when the joys of raising children and chasing careers had run their course.

Now they have, and here I am.
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby Xenops » Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:08 pm

Welcome to the forum! It sounds like you are in good company. ;)
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grayson
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:33 am

Overarching goal: indulge in a source of joy.
Remember, Grayson, this is not a race, a test of merit, or a gold star to chase. You're studying languages because you love the studying. Fall down obscure rabbit holes and spend entire mornings on one small thing if you want to – because the whole point is to love what you're doing, while you're doing it.

(Related story: for many years I had 'hobbies' I kept starting and stopping because they just felt hard – learning to play the guitar, for example. Then I met my husband, an accomplished windsurfer, and gamely set out to learn his hobby. All I did in the beginning, of course, was fall into the water and batter my shins. It was certainly hard, but I loved every minute of it. I'd spend hours on the water, falling in and getting nowhere, and be shocked at the time when I came in. It felt much shorter, as fun things often do. Since then, I've redefined the word 'hobby': it's something you love doing, not a skillset you want to acquire. Obviously you do acquire skill if you practice a hobby long enough – but it's a bonus that falls out of the doing, not the point of it.

I've spent enough time chasing gold stars and racing to finish lines. Now I want my joie de vivre back.)


Practical goals
  • Understand what people are saying.
  • Read literature in its original language.
  • Serve as a useful bridge when people don't speak a common language – in a shop, say, or at an airport.

It's fine if I love a language so much that real fluency falls out the back end, but that isn't the litmus test.
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grayson
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:02 am

James Clear, by way of Archilocus wrote:You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.


Well, I'm a lifelong sucker for systems – at least, for creating vast and detailed color-coded spreadsheeted timestamped iconified systems of awe-inspiring magnificence. Alas, these never live long. I've learned to save the color-coding and other minutiae for projects whose point is to revel in color coding and minutiae :) ... and to pare systems I mean to use down to the point of least viable friction.

Plan of Attack Indulgence
As a guideline, I'll spend 9 AM to 4 PM on polyglottery and two other projects (Aluffi's Algebra: Chapter 0 and freeform dance). Mornings will be generally offline in my upstairs study (textbooks, literature, isolated audio) and afternoons may be generally online downstairs (TL videos, news & articles; Wikipedia rabbit holes).

I'll start each morning with a scrum-like list in a dedicated notebook, briefly listing what I did yesterday and what I'll do today. I've found this to be my most effective motivational system for any project: clarity on what's next, with none of the crash-and-burn potential of a rigid schedule. As a bonus, I end up with a written record of my progress.

For accountability, I'll post a short weekly progress update in this thread. I quite like the "Week N" format in jeff_lindqvist's log. (I also like that he posts about game nights, and am taking that as permission to include wee updates about group theory and dance progress in my posts :) .) Hmmm, I might try out a weekly version of the what's-next list in those posts, and see if it's useful or just adds friction.
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 pm

grayson wrote:I quite like the "Week N" format in jeff_lindqvist's log. (I also like that he posts about game nights, and am taking that as permission to include wee updates about group theory and dance progress in my posts :) .)


Thanks for stopping by. :) Keep posting!
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby Elsa Maria » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:58 pm

grayson wrote:
In an instant, my dusty shelves were reframed. Indeed, I had built quite a resource center for myself – I just hadn't realized it was for me at 55, not me at 25 or 30 or 40. What a wonderful, magical sentence: two dozen words with the power to rewrite the story I told myself. I hadn't spent decades failing to learn more languages; I'd spent decades preparing to learn them, when the joys of raising children and chasing careers had run their course.

Now they have, and here I am.


This is a really wonderful reframing! I love it! You and I are about the same age - I am 58. I am a longtime fan of Professor A, but I had not noticed this point.

I look forward to reading about your language learning adventures, and I do hope that you also talk a bit about the dance project as dance is one of my other main hobbies.
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grayson
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:07 am

Resources & Expectations
I quite like the theory behind the immersion approach, so I've spent this week searching out suitable YT channels and grammar books for each of my current focus languages. For my purposes, "suitable" means monolingual + comprehensible.



This useful-seeming timeline comes from this post at Dreaming Spanish, and I'll refer to it in my expectations for each language below. Their roadmap discourages speaking and reading during the first 600 hours of study, which I don't entirely buy [0], but their explanation on removing native-language interference so your brain can properly map out the target language is what convinced me to do monolingual grammar study.

At 5-6 hours per language per week, I'll spend roughly 250 hours on each in the coming year.

SPANISH – I had five years of Spanish in high school and college, at the end of which I could carry on meaningful conversations and even think in Spanish [1]. I expect to be back at that level after 250 hours of study – let's say Level 6 in the image above. Audio input: Dreaming Spanish, En Pocas Palabras – Kurzgesagt, ScienceClic Español, Español Sí [2]. Offline resources: Gramática de uso del Español A1-B2, Cuentas Españoles ed. Angel Flores.

FRENCH – I had one semester of French in high school. Given that modicum of exposure and its similarity to Spanish, after 250 hours I expect to be at Level 4 in the image above. Audio input: French Comprehensible Input, innerFrench, CNES, Espace des sciences, ScienceEtonnante, ScienceClic, Extra French [4]. Offline resources: The Progressives [3], Contes Français ed. Wallace Fowlie.

GERMAN – I've never studied German, but given its similarity to Dutch, after 250 hours I expect to be at Level 4. Audio input: Natürlich German [5], Deutsch lernen mit der DW, Dingen Erklärt – Kurzgesagt, Deutsches Museum, MrWissen2go, Extra German. Offline resources: Schritte neu Grammatik, First German Reader ed. Harry Steinhauer.

MANDARIN – I've studied Mandarin for several years off and on, and done the hard work of learning to hear and reproduce tones, initials and finals. My reading and writing skills are far less developed. After another 250 hours I expect to be at Level 4 LS, Level 2 RW. Audio input: Comprehensible Chinese, Hit Chinese, Blabla Chinese. Offline resources: First Step Elementary Reader for Modern Chinese, Chinese Stories for Language Learners ed. Vivian Ling & Wang Peng.

RUSSIAN – Ages ago I learned the alphabet and a couple of words that stuck from Hugo's Russian in Three Months. Like Mandarin, this one's remote from what I already know; unlike Mandarin, I have very little foundation. I expect 250 hours to bring me to Level 3. Audio input: Comprehensible Russian [8], Alpha Centauri [6], Космос Просто, Tatiana Klimova – Russian Podcast. Offline resources: Who? Where? When? Russian Grammar in Pictures [7], Русские Рассказы ed. Gleb Struve.



FOOTNOTES
[0] On the other hand, perhaps reading and speaking too soon are why I still have a slight accent in Dutch and still make occasional mistakes? Eh, I can live with that. I really like learning about a language, and I really like workbooks, and I really like reading stories and novels.
[1] Then it got buried under Dutch – the instant I can't think of a word in Spanish my brain says, "Ah! You need a Foreign Word!" and serves me something in Dutch.
[2] Is it too much to hope this series will be as wickedly witty as Coupling? It probably is, but a girl can dream.
[3] I've bought the latest editions of the Grammaire, Communication, Vocabulaire, and Littérature at the débutant level, to start.
[4] This is Español Sí but in French. There's no dedicated YT channel and I can only find 13 episodes so far, scattered around the Tubiverse.
[5] Her English accent is so good I'm questioning if she's a native German speaker, but I can't find any information about her. Besides, her second video in the beginner playlist is about whether Han or Greedo shot first, so I'm on board regardless ;).
[6] I have no idea yet whether this is real science or woo woo stuff, but the presence of the English words "explanatory journalism" in the YT description give me tentative confidence it's the former... though I suppse it might say "none of that terrible explanatory journalism here, just lots of sensationalized woo!" ;)
[7] OMG what a marvelous find, courtesy this Reddit thread.
[8] Edited 2022-09-30 to replace "Russian with Max" with this channel. Max's first video was a fabulous monolingual demonstration of cups and books and keys on, under, above, beside, before and behind a table and one another. None of the 6-7 subsequent videos followed this approach, and hearing people tell me these things in my own native language does not interest me. The Comprehensible Russian channel is FABULOUS, and I really like the narrator's vibe, too – she must stir subconscious reminders of someone who felt safe and comforting in childhood.



EDITS
28 Oct 2022 – corrected misspelling of Kurzgesagt.
Last edited by grayson on Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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grayson
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:40 am

I'm still in the gearing-up phase before I start posting weekly progress updates. I tend to jump into projects and then chafe under my all-X-all-the-time plans – a fate I want to avoid here. So I'm easing my way in, trying out various ways to parcel up the work, and simultaneously spending all my allowance on shiny new resources. Because. You feel me here, I'm sure :).

I've spent a few days cycling across all five target languages, and this week I'm trying out "Mondays are for Spanish, Tuesdays are for French, ...". Only on day three of that, and already I can tell the all-five-each-day approach is better for me. Good to know!

My monolingual grammar books have mostly arrived; only the Russian one's still in transit. One thing I've already noticed about monolingual grammars – at least the German one – is that they assume some existing passive knowledge. For example, in the das-der-die section of the German grammar, they list some rules, then in the exercises throw in random words that don't obviously follow any of those rules and require complete guesswork.... unless you already know those words. Useful for formalizing knowledge you might not have realized you have, but I'll need a better foundation in German before that works for me. So for now, I think it will be most effective to deep-dive on listening with the help of the comprehensible input YT channels I linked in my previous post, then hit the grammar books a few weeks or months in. But I reserve the right to change my mind on that at any time. The number-one priority is to have a wonderful time doing all this, so if I want to do grammar, I'll do grammar!

Also waiting on some new finds since my last post [0]: Le Petit Larousse Illustré 2023, El pequeño Larousse ilustrado 2020, Bilderpedia. As a kid I used to read the encyclopedia (and the dictionary) for fun, so I think these books will up my enjoyment factor in the early stages. I'll eventually want to find similar resources for Mandarin and Russian, but I couldn't possibly read them at this point.



FOOTNOTE
[0] This forum has been invaluable in helping me find resources – a blanket thank-you to everyone who's posted recommendations.
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby Maengin » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:07 am

In case you missed it, that roadmap has an asterisk under it.
"*The number of hours is for speakers of European languages learning Spanish or another related language. Speakers of other romance languages can divide the amount of required hours by 2, while people that don't know any related language will need to spend approximately twice as many hours."

So your Mandarin and Russian expectations might be too high.
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Re: Grayson's Language Log

Postby grayson » Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:11 pm

A month later, I'm still test-driving various methods before starting in earnest. Where I am now:

  • I've confirmed that I need more structure than I can provide myself with cobbled-together resources and activities. The issue here is not motivation to watch YT videos and do workbook pages; it's that I constantly question whether they're the most effective use of my time. The comprehensible input YT channels I've found are entertaining, but I absolutely do not feel like they are the fastest way to learn. So after research, I've settled on the Assimil courses, and particularly Alexander Argüelles' approach to them. Of all the polyglot-watching I've done, he's the one I keep returning to.

    (Years ago, I bought Rocket Languages Spanish and Mandarin (and American Sign Language). RL Mandarin was actually really useful for me in the beginning; but I started to hate all the wasted time listening to the "fun banter" between the hosts, and to be honest, the English host in both the Spanish and Mandarin courses grated on me. I recently gave them both another try, and while I think the material and approach are probably solid, it just isn't my method.)

  • To that end, I've bought Assimil With Ease courses for French (in English), Spanish (in English), and German (in Dutch). Russian is currently hard to find, so I've decided to hold off on it for now. For Mandarin, I'll use the Princeton series, starting with First Step. I'll supplement these in the second half of the year (during the second pass through Assimil) with the workbooks and other resources I've already bought, as well as the native audio resources I've been collecting. (On that note: Kurzgesagt is a YouTube godsend! Short, interesting science-lite clips with native audio in multiple languages. I've created playlists to bundle one topic in its four incarnations: EN, FR, ES and DE. Ditto for the also fascinating and more technical ScienceClic, which is available in three languages: EN, FR and ES.)

  • I've also decided to follow Argüelles' modest "15 minutes a day" approach (link to video), which means one hour per day to study all four languages. It should take me a year to finish the Assimil courses. Then I'll spend another year on the Perfectionnement (or second stage of Princeton's program), ideally in two 15-minute blocks a day as AA recommends for this intermediate stage (link to video), but possibly less — I'll see what's sustainable at that time.

  • Obviously, I will be evaluating as I go; I might move faster, I might supplement sooner, etc. Spanish in particular may move much more quickly, given my past study. The main thing right now is to set myself achievable objectives until I'm satisfied I'm using my time to best effect.

In related news, I'm strongly considering returning to school in linguistics. I've got another several decades of useful life and after nine months of soul-searching on sabbatical, I know I'm not ready to retire and just noodle around with hobbies. Decades ago I taught at uni as a visiting lecturer and loved it; and when I started college I expected to end up in academia. Life took me elsewhere in the intervening 30 years, but there's no reason I can't come back to it now. In ten years I could have my PhD, with another twenty to thirty years of productive career. [0] We'll see...



FOOTNOTE
[0] Yes, I might get cancer or Alzheimers or hit by a bus, but why on Earth would I plan for that? I'll plan for a Ginsburgian 87 or a Penrosian 91, going strong until the end, and change prognosis if and when I have to.

EDITS
28 Oct 2022 – corrected two-letter abbreviation for Spanish from SP to ES.
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