A Charcuterie of Certainties: Confidence Collated, Mastery in Reach

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23128
Contact:

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby rdearman » Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:14 pm

I feel your pain! But you are doing the right thing in comparing yourself only with your past self. Remember that you don't need to be perfect, just better than yesterday!

Also, it is fine to park a language for a while if you don't have motivation. But perhaps it isn't a problem with a language, perhaps the issue is the connection to the language? After all, I think what we all really want is to be able to speak to other people. Certainly for me, that is the primary driver. I have zero interest in reading 18th century literature in French or some book "in the original", I want to talk to actual living people! Maybe this is why I do so many language exchanges. I dread doing them, but after I've done them I am really stoked to do another one, which I dread, rinse, lather, repeat.

I know almost zero Korean, but I do 2-3 language exchanges in Korean each week. Mostly I talk to people and ask them questions about the language which honestly a good grammar book would tell me, but I prefer people.

I also like writing, and I've written a fair amount of books, but I have a tendency to burn out on that too. But I will always drop back into it at some point.

I suppose what I'm saying is that being inconsistent isn't a problem for me. Just enjoy the process, and if you're not enjoying it, park it for a couple of months.
11 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

Picaboo
Orange Belt
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:06 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: English (native). Korean (upper intermediate). French (early intermediate), Japanese (early beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19516
x 359

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby Picaboo » Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:25 pm

I can relate, for sure, the number of hours (>1200) it has taken me to get to a level where I can understand enough Korean to have some fun with it is absolutely insane.

I like creating worlds and writing, too. This is what I've been doing recently to be creative while learning Korean. You might enjoy it, too.

I open up ChatGPT and create a story with it. Getting it to do what you want is a bit idiosyncratic but you can do stuff like below. You can then use the story as reading material in an ap like Language Crush if you're motivated. You can also rewrite some lines yourself by using a translator then giving that to ChatGPT to re-write it more simply. Especially when CHATGPT goes right off the rails (which is quite amusing).

Anyway, just an idea on how you might have some fun. Like anything really time consuming with a payoff way in the future, language learning is tough journey at times.

Here is an example of what you can do, with my input to https://chat.openai.com/chat. (English translation at bottom)
My input:
I am learning Korean. Let's write a beginner story with dialogue together in Korean this session. To start we will write the first paragraph. Two young women in a small village in South Korea are doing the laundry and talking about the weather. At the end of the paragraph they discover something shocking. ChatGPT you decide what the shocking thing is. Make the dialogue in simple Korean using words from TOPIK 1.

Output:
두 젊은 여자가 날씨에 대해 이야기하며 마을에서 빨래를 하고 있었다. "오늘은 날씨가 정말 좋네요," 하나가 말했다. "응, 하지만 너무 더워요," 다른 하나가 대답했다. 갑자기, 둘은 세탁기에서 무언가 충격적인 것을 발견했다.

"어머나, 빨래가 모두 붉게 물들었어요!"


My Input:
Continue the story with the second paragraph. The two women characters are named Min and Hanna. They are best friends. They decide that the red dye isn't dye but blood. They try to figure out why there would be that large amount of blood in the laundry. Make the story and dialogue in simple Korean using words from TOPIK 1.
Output:

민: "어떡해요? 이게 모두 피인가요?"
한나: "아니, 그건 불가능해요. 정말 어색해요. 우리가 뭐를 놓고 세탁했던 건가요?"
민: "그건 모르겠어요. 어디서 피가 나왔을까요?"
한나: "모르겠어요. 마을에 이런 일이 있었나요?"
민: "아니, 저는 몰라요. 그래도 이상하네요. 빨래마저 피가 섞여 있어서..."


My Input:
Continue the story with the third paragraph. In this paragraph Min and Hanna talk about the bloody murders in the village ten years earlier and worry that that is related to the blood in the laundry. Make the story and dialogue in simple Korean using words from TOPIK 1.
Output:

한나: "그렇다면, 이전에 일어났던 그 가족 살인 사건과 연관이 있을까요?"
민: "네, 그 사건은 아직도 여전히 미스터리에요. 하지만, 우리가 여기서 본건 그저 무섭고 혼란스럽네요."
한나: "최근에도 어떤 이상한 일이 있었나요?"
민: "아니요, 그렇지는 않아요. 다만... 듣기로는 이 지역에서 또 다른 이상한 일이 벌어지고 있다고 해요."
한나: "어떤 일인가요?"
민: "정확히는 몰라요. 그냥 떠도는 소문 뿐이에요. 우리가 조심해야겠어요."

--Translated story so far:

Two young women were washing clothes in the village, talking about the weather. "It's a beautiful day today," said one. "Yes, but it's so hot," replied the other. Suddenly, they noticed something shocking in the washing machine.

"Oh my God, all the laundry is dyed red!"


Min: "What can we do? Is it all blood?"
Hannah: "No, that's impossible, it's really awkward. What did we leave behind in the laundry?"
Min: "I don't know, where did the blood come from?"
Hannah: "I don't know. Did this happen in the village?"
Min: "No, I don't know, but it's still weird, because even the laundry has blood on it..."


Hannah: "So, could it be connected to that family murder that happened before?"
Min: "Yeah, that case is still a mystery, but what we've seen here is just scary and disturbing."
Hannah: "Have there been any other strange occurrences recently?"
Min: "No, not really, but... from what I hear, there's another strange thing going on in the area."
Hannah: "What's that about?"
Min: "I don't know exactly, it's just a rumor. I think we should be careful."

Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Anyway, just an idea. Language learning is a lifetime endeavor so whatever you do that is language related is progress.
8 x

User avatar
eido
Blue Belt
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:31 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (C1)
x 3181

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby eido » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:45 pm

rdearman wrote:I feel your pain! But you are doing the right thing in comparing yourself only with your past self. Remember that you don't need to be perfect, just better than yesterday!
...
I suppose what I'm saying is that being inconsistent isn't a problem for me. Just enjoy the process, and if you're not enjoying it, park it for a couple of months.

This is good advice. Thank you.

I have to say I've tried to follow all the advice given to me over the years on this site (with my own spin added to it). It's become a massive collection of "if this, then this" or perhaps, "if not this, then this" in my mind that I refer to. So please know, anyone reading this, that I do take what you say into account - I just mull over it longer than others.

Let it be known that my post definitely fell into the rant category, as I feel better about myself now, but not really the concept of learning. I'm always learning, but I do have a strange sort of perfectionist streak that can only be described as "wanting to do the right thing" instead of the "good" or "perfect" thing.

Picaboo wrote:I can relate, for sure, the number of hours (>1200) it has taken me to get to a level where I can understand enough Korean to have some fun with it is absolutely insane.

I like creating worlds and writing, too. This is what I've been doing recently to be creative while learning Korean. You might enjoy it, too.
...
Anyway, just an idea. Language learning is a lifetime endeavor so whatever you do that is language related is progress.

It seems like an interesting prospect, and I might be more open to it in the future once I've investigated ChatGPT more. I appreciate you stopping by.

I'm going to try to get some more language learning done over the next couple of weeks, but I can't count on it. At this point I think I just like the idea of learning, and not actually doing. :oops:
8 x

User avatar
eido
Blue Belt
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:31 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (C1)
x 3181

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby eido » Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:55 pm

I'm still feeling that perfectionistic drive, but I've slowly been adding more learning into my daily diet.

That has to count for something, right?

I've been studying Japanese, and I have a book on Russian sitting out in front of me I plan to have a look at later today, if not sometime this week at a different time.

Last night, I understood about 85-90% of a conversation in Polish with my parents. It didn't last very long, but I understood the gist and then some, surprising my mother :lol: So I call that a win.

My comprehension in Japanese is steadily improving. This is another thing to be excited about ;)

Woo-hoo!
11 x

User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1578
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 3878

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby tastyonions » Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:19 pm

You and anyone else with the ambition to take on a bunch of languages like Russian, Polish, Japanese, and Korean impress the heck out of me. The highest mountain I've set my sights on so far is Greek.
3 x

User avatar
eido
Blue Belt
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:31 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (C1)
x 3181

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby eido » Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:46 pm

So I never got to that Russian book, but I instead got back into Korean - and I have some thoughts about it.

I have a heck of a time reading aloud in Korean. Long sentences are difficult to parse, since I'm still relatively unaware of where I should pause to get the desired effect. Obviously, like probably every natural language on Earth, there are many different ways to say a certain sentence to convey tone. I can barely speak Korean beyond a few introductory sentences, despite how long I've been studying it. I've had a few experiences on tutoring platforms where the teachers think I'm many levels below my actual capabilities just because I can't speak to their specifications.

And I get that. One of the traditional ways of showing competence in a spoken language is well, by speaking it. My strongest skill is by far reading, followed by writing. I recently took a free online placement test that put me at TOPIK level 3, or roughly B1 on CEFR. After so many years of studying, this was a disappointing result. I thought at least my theoretical knowledge would be at a B2 level. Granted, it's a 40-question test, and doesn't measure everything; but it still rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not as mad as this post might suggest, though.

Despite my halting read aloud skills, I still keep practicing with them and those of listening. I think I'm steadily getting better, but it's slow go. I try various tactics, from listening to resources without subtitles, to re-listening to them with them, and using transcripts if available. I do this over multiple days, because my energy comes in spurts. I think this is beneficial, not because I'm cheating the studying system (saying I'm studying more than I am), but because it refreshes my brain and keeps me going.

Something I find really fun is singing aloud (when I'm alone :lol: ) to my favorite (or even new) Korean songs. My music streaming service lists lyrics for most songs that pop up, and they're interactive, so they move as the music does. I can read quite fast, but maybe not comprehend all that well as the requisite rappers speed through their parts. It's always a (good) challenge to see how much new information I can understand upon every listen of familiar songs, or perhaps new ones for an even stiffer competition against myself. It's been said before k-pop / k-music has its own vocabulary, and I do agree. I understand more of k-pop since I've had the most experience with it than any other genre of Korean production.

tastyonions wrote:You and anyone else with the ambition to take on a bunch of languages like Russian, Polish, Japanese, and Korean impress the heck out of me. The highest mountain I've set my sights on so far is Greek.

I may try, but do I succeed? That's the question. ;) But the sentiment is understood, so thank you. I appreciate it.
6 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23128
Contact:

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby rdearman » Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:32 pm

eido wrote:Long sentences are difficult to parse, since I'm still relatively unaware of where I should pause to get the desired effect.

There was some trick for practising prosody which I heard about and tried to use when I was learning Mandarin. The trick was to basically get an audiobook in the language, then follow along with the speaker, but instead of saying actual words you just say "ah" or "oh" or similar nonsense sounds. BUT you say it at the same rate as the native speak in the audio. The same stress, same pitch, same tempo, same pauses, same intonation, same duration, same everything, but you're not trying to repeat words. You focus on making your nonsense sounds at the same prosody as the actual language being spoken.

The idea here is that because you're focusing on the tempo and stress, etc, not the words, you can begin to get a feel for the language and the way it flows out of a native without getting hung up on meaning. It did seem to help me a little with tones, although I didn't do it often enough for it to stick.
7 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
eido
Blue Belt
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:31 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (C1)
x 3181

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby eido » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:46 pm

rdearman wrote:The idea here is that because you're focusing on the tempo and stress, etc, not the words, you can begin to get a feel for the language and the way it flows out of a native without getting hung up on meaning. It did seem to help me a little with tones, although I didn't do it often enough for it to stick.

I think I recall doing something similar to this. Perhaps I read about the process on this forum and tried to imitate it myself. I should really try it again - it seems viable. Thanks again, @rdearman!

This week I did some more focused work on Korean. There's a dictation course I've been working with, and I find that I'm getting better. But the major hurdle I'm encountering is similar sounds and the liaison involved. I assume this is a major stumbling block for a lot of learners of Korean, but it's still frustrating because it's a bit more unique to the language. Spanish didn't have such a difficulty. But I'm a persistent sort, so I won't give up easily.

What happens is a sound like '어' I might confuse for '오' or I might blend the liaised syllables from one word to the next and mess up which sound is which. On my last dictation I did rather poorly, and I marked honestly. But this time, still marking honestly, I did much better. Could have been different quality of the exercises, but I'm still proud.

I also was able to follow along with some songs I knew well, even without the lyrics, and recognize more words. What happened was, when I was first learning Korean (as I'm sure a few of you remember if you've been following me long enough), that I tried to experiment with different ways of learning, such as the immersion and "learning-like-a-child" hypothesis. Now it's kind of ruined me, because I never focused on frontloading vocabulary, rather... just absorbing it. That got me to a certain point, but certain points are certain points and they must be built off of. So now there's a disconnect between when I'm reading aloud to myself and trying to hear the sounds and parse them into coherent words, and of course sentences. I can either read or hear, but not do both at the same time.

It's an entirely new hindrance I never imagined having as someone who can glug down information in her native language as though water never would run out on planet Earth.

Maybe if I'd done it differently, I wouldn't struggle, but it's not something I completely mind. It's just mine, and I chose it, so I have to own it ;)
8 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23128
Contact:

Re: It's Ladies' Night, and We're Alright for a "파이팅!"... or Maybe Just Studying

Postby rdearman » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:50 pm

eido wrote:Maybe if I'd done it differently, I wouldn't struggle,


You can't saw, sawdust... don't worry about the past.
5 x
: 0 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
eido
Blue Belt
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:31 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (C1)
x 3181

Re: April Showers Bring May Flowers: Planting Seeds for a Brighter Tomorrow

Postby eido » Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:55 pm

rdearman wrote:You can't saw, sawdust... don't worry about the past.

Oh, trust me - I don't mind reflecting over the past to find where I went wrong, and attempting to find how I could improve. It's not necessarily a preoccupation, but I think in certain doses it can be healthy. :) I do agree, though. Being too focused on what's come before can really bring you down.

So, on to updates. I haven't done much this past month because I've been trying to get life issues straightened out, and I think things are calming down now. However, I don't think I'll have much time until our summer months to do anything of substance. I love searching for books to read, but I'm afraid to tote them around places, since a lot of times, if I buy them, they're either in fairly good condition and I don't want to tear them to bits... or they're a rare copy of a book and worse for wear, and I feel similarly; I have to handle them carefully. Therefore, I get nothing done, and it's a vicious cycle.

I bought an French Assimil copy from the 70s that had a bad spine. It's become a habit of mine to read French copies even though I don't speak French ( :lol: ) because that's where Assimil shines. My Spanish knowledge really helps, but it's not perfect.

I have other books I bought, and this summer I plan to be my learning conquest. 8-)

In other news, I really like where the individual BTS members are taking their sound now that they don't necessarily have to work together. I'll share a couple of songs that have really stood out to me over the past while, and I hope you'll find them as pleasing to the ear as I have!

SONGS
  • "Don't" by eAeon ft. RM / Turn on CC for English lyrics
  • "Vibe" by Taeyang ft. Jimin / Turn on CC for English lyrics
  • "Wildflower" by RM ft. youjeen / Turn on CC
  • "on the street" by j-hope ft. J. Cole / Turn on CC

And those are only some. They're all really shining now by themselves. I've moved on now, though. But seeing them do solo work and doing well at it is really great.
3 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Zomxilla and 2 guests