Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

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rdearman
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby rdearman » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:55 pm

I probably should have been more clear about my abilities, although when I'm in a funk I have a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Anyway, it isn't that I don't understand anything about a TV show in French or Italian. I understand probably 50-80% of most of the shows I watch, and I can happily have a conversation with French & Italian people in subjects which aren't too esoteric. But I get angry because after all this time I don't understand 99% of the content of every TV show I watch.

For example the show I like in Italian "Camionisti In Trattoria" which is about a guy hitchhiking with truckers and eating at cafes they recommend, and at the end of the show one of the 3 truckers and the resturant win a prize. I'm happy watching this, I get nearly all of the parts where he is talking to the truckers and asking why they do it, and other stuff about wifes, husbands, etc. I get most of the talk about food except for the names for various dishes, which quite honestly I don't really feel any need to learn.

However, I am "getting the gist" and following the show, but I don't understand like I would if it was in English. So what I want train myself to do is understand the show like I would in English. Not to the point where I'm listening to my wife, looking at my phone and understanding the show at the same time. Just "get it", not "get the gist of it".

My experiment probably needs to be tempered with more vocabulary aquisition as someone suggested, and probably doing intensive listening. Last night I watched "Camionisti In Trattoria" Season 1, Episode 1, then I watched it again. The second pass was much better. So now I'm thinking rather than watching 4.5 hours of shows, to watch the same show multiple times one night. Basically for the repetition.

  1. Watch
  2. Watch, pickout unknowns and look up
  3. Watch
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby StringerBell » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:38 pm

I'm quoting myself since I wrote about this on someone else's log:

StringerBell wrote:In my case, I watched Italian TV intensively...which was a lot of work, but after while (I don't know how long, many months, many hundreds of hours) I got to a point where I could watch pretty much any show with very good comprehension without subtitles. I can't imagine that I would have gotten such good results if I'd instead watched extensively. Even now, I see that when I'm listening to something in Italian, if I don't know a word or even a whole sentence, my brain ignores it as if it weren't even there. It doesn't affect my comprehension, but it does cause me to occasionally miss details or nuance.

It's only when I slow things down, focus on the individual words/sentences (which I can only seem to do if I am reading some kind of text) and realize something's off and I try to figure out what's missing that I improve. So the idea that extensive listening can bring about the same results feels like a pipe dream to me.


I have never tried just pure extensive listening early on, so I can't say anything about how/if it works...I do know that I don't pick up new vocabulary by just hearing it fly by. I also don't pick up new vocabulary by seeing in in print repeatedly unless I look up the definition. Even when I'm listening to a podcast where I understand everything as easily as if it were in English, and then a new word pops up, I immediately forget and/or ignore that word with such efficiency that at the end of the podcast I have no memory of having heard the word.

I've listened to a lot of Podcast Italiano episodes, which I find extremely comfortable to understand, but when I later looked at the list of "new vocabulary" that Davide typed up in the episode notes, if any of them are new to me, I could swear that he never said any of them in the show. I function the same way in English; when I hear or read a new word, if I don't take a moment to look up the definition, read a few sample sentences showing how it's used, I will absolutely not intuit the definition or recognize it in the future.

Anything is possible, and I don't want to condemn an method I've never tried myself. So if you do decide to go this route, I'll be very interested to see the results!

rdearman wrote:[*]Watch
[*]Watch, pickout unknowns and look up
[*]Watch[/list]


This sounds like a variation of what I did, which I found to be extremely effective.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby javier_getafe » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:18 pm

This is exactly the way I work with my graduated audio-books (C1-Cambridge). I listen each chapter one or two times before I read it. Then I read the chapter and look for new words, finally I listen again one or two times more.

It has been not only the best method that I came across, but also the unique system that really help me to improve. After years to work with extensive system, listening from BBC or Tv series without captions and repetisions, I realized that what actually works is the intensive method, at lest for me.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby Beli Tsar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 pm

rdearman wrote:Last night I watched "Camionisti In Trattoria" Season 1, Episode 1, then I watched it again. The second pass was much better. So now I'm thinking rather than watching 4.5 hours of shows, to watch the same show multiple times one night. Basically for the repetition.
  1. Watch
  2. Watch, pickout unknowns and look up
  3. Watch

I offer this suggestion very tentatively, because you are far better at languages than me, and I have never learned to watch anything in any foreign language, unless some very odd recorded dialogues in Ancient Greek on youtube count.

But I had this kind repetition for reading - 3* - recommended to me, and found it very powerful - key to making real breakthroughs.

Key to the recommendation was doing this on three consecutive days, not all in one - something I can verify from experience.

I think the advantages of sleep, a crude sort of spaced repetition, and time, all coalesce into much better memory-forming and understanding.

So, instead, is it worth trying:
Day 1
  1. Watch episode 1
Day 2
  1. Watch episode 1, pick out unknowns and look up
  2. Watch episode 2
Day 3
  1. Watch episode 1
  2. Watch episode 2, pick out unknowns and look up
  3. Watch episode 3
Day 3
  1. Watch episode 2
  2. Watch episode 3, pick out unknowns and look up
  3. Watch episode 4

I almost forgot to mention the biggest benefit of all! Triple reading (and I assume listening/watching) is really powerful. But, done in one day, day after day, it is extraordinarily boring. Spaced out over several days, it is much less boring, and you can give it much, much better attention. Reading the same passage over and over again your eyes glaze over - but mix a couple of other passages in, space it out over a few days, and it's much easier.

Now I'm realising I need to go and do some of this myself.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby Elenia » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:35 pm

Active listening. I've said it many times, and I'm saying it again. Make sure you're paying attention for at least a portion of it. Take notes, if you can force yourself too. Massive exposure plus active, attentive listening was what helped me actually be able to understand French. Also, Zen was spot on about the drills. They'll help, even if you don't want them to.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby rdearman » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:32 pm

Well my log was buried way back on page 5 so I can tell it has been awhile since I did an update. I've not spend anytime "learning" any languages. I've spent a lot of time watching some Italian TV shows mostly "Camionisti In Trattoria". As usual I've been given some amazingly good advice in my log, which I more or less ignored immediately. I haven't been intensively watching, but rather just watching one episode, then repeating it. On the odd occasion I might look up a word but mostly I just try to pick out the words I know and figure out what is going on. Am I improving, well.... kinda, sorta... but really it is too early to tell. I've not really done much French, other than a couple of short YouTube stations I'm subscribed to who might put out a new video once a week or so.

Tonight I did two back-to-back language exchanges in French, and it wasn't too awful. But I have noticed that I talk to much! When we're speaking English I tend to listen and correct, but I also talk a little to keep the conversation going and to let them practice English comprehension. But I talk to much when it is my turn for French and if I want to learn to understand I need to do more of that. But I've very relaxed about the whole language learning thing at the moment because by necessity it has taken a bit of a back burner to other things. I'm still doing these exchanges simply because they want to keep going and they are "regulars", so cultivation of some regulars will keep you talking even when you're not really in the mood. :) I was accepted for a speech at the gathering and it will be about the 500+ language exchanges I did in the last quarter of 2018 and what I gained from the experiance.

I haven't done any study with any books and even my maths books have tailed off to nothing. Mainly this is because by the time I get back to the hotel I just want to veg out in front of the TV. So that is what I'm doing. With luck it might pay off eventually.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby rdearman » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:20 pm

Absolutely nothing to report. I haven't done any studying for weeks. I simply watch some Italian TV in the hotel, and that is literally it. This week I didn't even manage to do any language exchanges. I've deliberately tried to cut back and there are really only 2-3 people I speak to on a regular basis. SO I'm doing about 16 hours per week of Italian TV. I've stopped reading my Italian books, so I'll fail the SC again this time I suspect. On occasion it annoys me that I'm not doing more, but honestly I'm to tired to do anything most nights other than sit and veg-out in front of the TV. Fridays I have a long drive home, and I just listen to music.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby rdearman » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:34 pm

I had an interesting experiance tonight. I was watching an episode of Rocco Schiavone (Italian Detective Series) and I actually forgot I was watching it in Italian. I was about halfway through the episode, and suddenly it occured to me that I hadn't been translating the dialogue but just listening to it. Unfortunatly that experiance only lasted for a few minutes, but it felt good.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby Brun Ugle » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:13 am

rdearman wrote:I had an interesting experiance tonight. I was watching an episode of Rocco Schiavone (Italian Detective Series) and I actually forgot I was watching it in Italian. I was about halfway through the episode, and suddenly it occured to me that I hadn't been translating the dialogue but just listening to it. Unfortunatly that experiance only lasted for a few minutes, but it felt good.

You’ve been translating all this time?! No wonder you say you struggle with listening. I would suggest you take advantage of this occurrence and do a lot of extensive listening without subs or other crutches over the next few weeks. Binge as much as possible. Hopefully, you will achieve a breakthrough with you listening. At first it will be only short bursts like you describe because every time you start to just understand automatically, you brain will say, “Look! I’m doing it!” and you will lose the flow. But if you just keep going and ignore your brain, eventually it will happen more often and for longer periods and soon you will be just listening without ever translating at all.
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Re: Rdearman 2016/17/18/19 [Remember if we get caught, I'm deaf and you don't speak English]

Postby Iversen » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:41 am

Long ago I coined the expression "listening like a bloodhound". It means that you don't deliberately try to listen for the meaning, but just listen for the syllables and words and phrases. If you know them then the meaning will automatically po up in your head, maybe as a a translation, but hopefully as the feeling you would have had if all the items were in your own language. If there is something you don't understand then just let it pass by - trying to guess the meaning on the fly will just prevent you from listening to and understanding the following passage.

Sooner or later you will know so much of the language that the isolated islets will merge, leaving just a few holes - and THEN, but not before it is worth bothering about the things you don't understand while you listen. Or in other words: let your inner comprehension automaton work as well as it can on the basis you have got. Trying to force it to work on knowledge you haven't got yet is like trying to drive a car with one or more missing wheels.

And what then about the kind of exercise where you listen again and again, looking unknown words up along the way etc. etc. Well, that's another case. Here the goal is to identify unknown elements in order to fill out some holes. Getting the total meaning (or 'getting the gist' as it is commonly expressed, which just is one step above "I don't understand this") may be a welcome side effect, but the real purpose of this exercise is to acquire more knowledge, which will aid you in doing the bloodhound exercise.
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