Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

[reineke]

Given your study methods, I'm not surprised by your test results, though I was expecting ~B1 from reading your posts or maybe just from the number of hours spent. It's precisely results like this why I don't believe in extensive reading/tv watching/sentence cards/grammar avoidance/etc. But you choose to study this way because you prefer so. You know all the alternatives. You've seen PM's excellent results but you don't prefer to study like him, you prefer your books and movies. You're doing what you enjoy. You've had fun for 6 years. Every minute of watching Buffy is a minute of not studying grammar, yay.

I am sorry but this is not a resounding victory for grammar crammers.

(I'm not sure I understood you correctly but anyway) like I said before, that a method doesn't work doesn't mean that the opposite will work. Rdearman said, however,

... the only thing I ever really wanted to do in French... have a conversation with French people in French.

, making PM's score of 23/25 in B2 Speaking and thus his study methods something worth thinking about.

PM can speak for himself but...

Peter

Could you do me a favor and remind of how many hours and years you approximate for your study of French? Did you say about 4000 hours and 5-6 yrs? I am a pretty slow learner in my French studies and guesstimate it would probably take me about that much time.

Thanks.

Hey Carmody,

Take a look at the post by smallwhite at the top of this page of my log. There are a couple of links there that my provide you with some clarity regarding your question. Also there is a post half way down page 85 of my log where I answer rdearman and discuss hours studied thus far with French. It's a scary figure, but to clarify - I did many many restarts between 1997 when I started and 2013 in French (not to mention Spanish, Dutch and German - French more so). Thus the 1800 hours of French mentioned in that post to rdearman on top of the 3200 hours is a total guess and could literally be cut out because I did restart literally in 2013. It was 2014 when I really got serious though. And still I repeated a number of courses I had already completed, so the 3200 hours from 2013 to now could substantially be cut back further still... I think with 2000 hours and not too much repetition (a bit is good), decent results could be had. Furthermore it does seem to appear that I'm beyond the B2 level, but that is based on my B2 results and feedback from tutors. Another thing to add. Okay 2000 hours (roughly) could be cut back substantially if one didn't care about accent. I'm very very particular about my French accent, and I sincerely believe it has potentially as much as doubled my study hours. Although now I don't lose too much time on perfecting accent, in the early stages I spent a massive amount of time working on it when it's all added up. Also- the learning process has been slow. I spent sooo much time fiddling with flashcards. All in all this is what happens with the first language one attempts to bring up to an advanced level- lot's of trial and error.

In short roughly 5000 hours total.
But from my 'serious start' to now: 3200 hours.
Next language, I think I'll halve that time, honestly.

[smallwhite]

but...

Hm? Am I to spot the difference between PM and RD? I see similar background, similar hours and different scores.

So you think RD is on track?

[rdearman]

but...

Hm? Am I to spot the difference between PM and RD? I see similar background, similar hours and different scores.

So you think RD is on track?

No way, I've done probably 1/5th of the hours PM has put in.

EDIT:
Please lets not get side tracked from this: I would really like to know the answer.

You "need" stronger language skills if you don't want them to disintegrate in a matter of months.

OK, how exactly do you suggest I do that?

[garyb]

I can understand your reasons for wanting to give up French, since I did the same a few years ago. Although I was at a more advanced level, and part of my reasoning was also bad experiences with native speakers, I had similar thoughts: I didn't have much use for French in my life, and my level was already sufficient to do things I wanted like enjoying literature and cinema and conversing when the opportunity did arise. Of course I'd love to be able to converse more correctly and fluently, but when it only happens a few times per year the required effort doesn't seem worthwhile. I figured life was too short to pour time into something I no longer had much use for. Of course it's your decision and up to you to figure out whether these thoughts are just from temporary frustration. I considered it for a while before deciding to give up.

[reineke]

You "need" stronger language skills if you don't want them to disintegrate in a matter of months.

OK, how exactly do you suggest I do that?

You can start by deciding on a language or languages you wish to study and then sticking to your decision. You need to adjust your attitude and expectations. The first foreign language is often the hardest to acquire. Book some lessons with that tutor of yours. She can tutor you in both languages. Your writing sample was "très strange". It's good that you are not intimidated by Italian but your results indicate that you need to spend more time with that language as well.

[sfuqua]

I've always said that French should reform it's spelling to make my life easier
Of course I don't spell well in English either..

[klvik]

I randomly tried tests in Greek and in Finnish, everything below A1.

I can only conclude that I'm crap at languages, I can't even manage a C2 in my own native language.

EDIT: Also how the hell can you be below A1 in vocabulary, and get a B1 in listening? Doesn't make sense.

I think the only thing you can conclude is that you are crap at the Dialang test.

[PeterMollenburg]

I've only just caught up on the 'situation' that's arisen here. I'll throw in my observations, although once again I'm not sure i'm qualified to speak up, but since I always open my mouth regardless around these parts, why stop now?

It's easy to say what I'm about to say as your current dilemma makes it so, however, had you skipped off into the fields speaking perfectly fluent C2 level French, I wouldn't be saying this. I think you took a seriously wrong turn. You chose French when you should've chosen Italian. Like I said, easy to say now, and I didn't speak up then, so I was not acutely aware of it at the time either. If I equate it to sport. Let's say I wanted to make world championship/olympic level in kayaking but decided to do it in cycling first because I do also enjoy it (not as much), but so that I could get that out the way then get back to what I really wanted to do (kayaking), it would seem rather absurd. I think your decision has, upon reflection, given your current dilemma, proved itself also to be absurd. Perhaps not to the same extent, but I think it was the wrong choice.

Iguanamon is absolutely right, motivation is what is incredibly important here and I think when it comes to your first L2 (remember this is coming from me, knower of 61 languages, to C2 level), all decision making should be based on motivation. I want Dutch to be my next language, but logic keeps telling me lately to learn German or maybe even Spanish (okay at a stretch). I enjoy those languages, but choose them, no matter how logical the decision would be, and I'll be forever regretting I didn't take on Dutch, and possibly do a half-baked job of German/Spanish and end up in a situation similar to your current one. So I've chosen to make a new language Dgurish that I'm going to force everyone in the world to speak too!!!!.... no, that's straight up bullshit.

It's not too late to change the situation. Continue with French and your likely to drop everything altogether in terms of languages. Instead, go back to Italian, and be prepared to change your routine as well and you have a much better chance of success. Challenge yourself, do things that challenge your Italian. Dare to pick up a grammar book/course and mix it into your routine. I think smallwhite was touching on your study methods perhaps being too one sided and that's what I'm pointing out now. If you do choose Italian, don't just read and watch, is my suggestion, shake it up a little, work hard (meaning perhaps challenging yourself with activities you don't totally enjoy but will prove beneficial) some of the time and in due course you'll make it. Good luck!

[smallwhite]

I randomly tried tests in Greek and in Finnish, everything below A1.

I assume you were trying to test the system a bit.

I did my first Greek listening test on day 19. Attempted 16 questions and got 10 of them correct. The remaining questions were too hard. Below A1. Then later got 12 out of 23, then later 19/30 and 22/30 for your Study. 10->12->19->22 shows a reasonable and believable trend.

Since I can't get a C2 on a test in my native language which I've been using for 50+ years, seems I need to learn my first language.

So we know it's not just a matter of immersion and time on task.

You've said you don't care much about details so it's only natural you don't achieve 100% in tests and things?

Probably a case of managing expectations and having vs eating cake. Lazy fist wants the results of hardworking fist. I'm lazy and pleasure-seeking but I accept the consequences. I know my vocabulary spreadsheet works fastest for me but I'd rather use Quizlet on the phone because I can do it lying in bed, and I accept that I can't learn 8k words in 4mths this way. Considering how awesome it is to lie in bed, I am still "extremely happy" with my progress.

No way, I've done probably 1/5th of the hours PM has put in.

I used 6 years x 365 days x 2 hours + leeway such as exposure since high school and other unmentioned things, and I didn't differentiate French and Italian in your case. Basically I compared ~6 years to ~6 years.

* Common French words with mixture of audio sentences and basic TL/NL cards.
* French audio cards. TL Audio on front, Back is sentence in TL & NL

I'm suddenly wondering if SRSing flashcards bearing sentences extracted from native material is "using native materials" or "studying / using study materials". The sentences are native, the SRS is artificial, but if one reads or watches tele for 8 hours a day that's pretty artificial, too, and if one re-reads and re-watches something then that's spaced repetition, too.

What about flashcards bearing similar chunks instead? Words instead?

I think smallwhite was touching on your study methods perhaps being too one sided...

Not really.
1. I wasn't commenting on RD's method's - he said he was confused by his Dialang results and I was explaining them to him. Of course I sprinkle in my personal opinions but it wasn't my intention to comment on his methods.
2. I don't see "study + native material" as the ideal standard so I don't see study-only or native material-only as one-sided.
3. I was saying "you chose fun books and movies so you've had fun books and movies, that's great; you did what you wanted to do, you didn't do what you didn't want to do, that's great".
4. All that while wondering to myself: Why is he still not happy? Why does he want to give up? He wanted to watch Buffy, he watched Buffy, so what's the problem? I like grammars, I read grammars, and I'm happy.

Btw, I see study-heavy as similar to university study and native-material-heavy as similar to technical apprenticeship.

[rdearman]

Grreeeaaattt. Closed the tab and have to write this again.
---

1. I wasn't commenting on RD's method's - he said he was confused by his Dialang results and I was explaining them to him. Of course I sprinkle in my personal opinions but it wasn't my intention to comment on his methods.
2. I don't see "study + native material" as the ideal standard so I don't see study-only or native material-only as one-sided.
3. I was saying "you chose fun books and movies so you've had fun books and movies, that's great; you did what you wanted to do, you didn't do what you didn't want to do, that's great".
4. All that while wondering to myself: Why is he still not happy? Why does he want to give up? He wanted to watch Buffy, he watched Buffy, so what's the problem? I like grammars, I read grammars, and I'm happy.

First let me start by saying that I've never watched Buffy.

I'm not unhappy, since I can speak French to French people, which was the only vague goal I had. What I'm unhappy with is the amount of time it takes to wrestle this language to the ground and beat the REDACTED language into submission. I don't believe my methods are any better or worse than anyone else's, I'm sure that I'll get there in the end. There is just the frustration of "are we there yet?" My methods suit my goals, since writing was never my objectives.

Here I'd put a long 6 or 8 paragraphs about the use of subjective rather than objective questions on a test, but I can't be bothered to rewrite all of it. The summary was I don't agree with my assessment in English on dialang which makes me doubt the scoring in other languages.

It's not too late to change the situation. Continue with French and your likely to drop everything altogether in terms of languages. Instead, go back to Italian, and be prepared to change your routine as well and you have a much better chance of success. Challenge yourself, do things that challenge your Italian. Dare to pick up a grammar book/course and mix it into your routine. I think smallwhite was touching on your study methods perhaps being too one sided and that's what I'm pointing out now. If you do choose Italian, don't just read and watch, is my suggestion, shake it up a little, work hard (meaning perhaps challenging yourself with activities you don't totally enjoy but will prove beneficial) some of the time and in due course you'll make it. Good luck!

It really isn't a matter of motivation for either language. About 6-8 months ago I was unhappy with the progress I was making while doing both Italian and French at the same time. I decided that I should pick one and focus on it to the exclusion of all others. This 6+ months of French only has made no appreciable difference in my skills. Therefore it would appear to me that neglecting Italian for the sake of French, only harms Italian and doesn't produce significant increases in French. Although actually I don't believe I lost much Italian, since I've continued to have conversations with Italians and it doesn't seem to be a problem other than the lag time it takes to get fully in to gear.

I don't know if my study methods are one sided. The only thing I really leave out is grammar books, and I recently bought 3 grammar books in Italian to rectify that. Still arguably a lot of the reason for the poor showing in Italian vocabulary is simply not enough reading and the same for French I feel. Speaking hasn't been a challenge for me, because I have been very lackadaisical about this. Conversations with tutors and friends rarely goes outside of my comfort zone of vocabulary. I haven't had any iTalki tutor or language exchange partner want to talk about microprocessors, boolean logic, distributed ledger and blockchain technology, Alexander the Great, or Hannibal and the Numidians. It is always where I live, children, blah, blah. So perhaps I need to set myself some more challenging goals here.

Also my results on the tests are slightly skewed because I don't practice writing. Which means I don't practice spelling. All of the dialang tests required some keyboard input of correctly spelt words. So although I know the word, and I can say it, I may not know how to spell it.

You can start by deciding on a language or languages you wish to study and then sticking to your decision. You need to adjust your attitude and expectations. The first foreign language is often the hardest to acquire. Book some lessons with that tutor of yours. She can tutor you in both languages. Your writing sample was "très strange". It's good that you are not intimidated by Italian but your results indicate that you need to spend more time with that language as well.

Yes, I would concur with this statement. Could you please explain why it was strange? A focus on French didn't achieve the effect I'd wished for and not using Italian didn't help me either. I was hoping you'd expand a bit on the methods you use.

---

For myself I've thought about this. My thoughts are this:

• No point in stopping French because it will just deteriorate and then I'll be back to square one. But I'm not going to focus on French to the exclusion of all else.
• I need to work more on written language in order to get better at spelling and grammar.
• I need to work on expanding my vocabulary so I'll not stop using anki, but increase the amount of it which I use.
• Book more conversations with natives, but direct the discussions outside of my comfort zone by setting a topic in advance.
• Read more, watch more TV.