Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

[smallwhite]

if I had invested the same amount of time and energy into learning a skill like boat building then I would probably be writing this from below deck of my own personal catamaran which I'd build myself.

How would you learn boat building? By reading books on the subject? By SRSing names of boat parts and watching hundreds of hours of people sailing on their boats?

[Adrianslont]

if I had invested the same amount of time and energy into learning a skill like boat building then I would probably be writing this from below deck of my own personal catamaran which I'd build myself.

How would you learn boat building? By reading books on the subject? By SRSing names of boat parts and watching hundreds of hours of people sailing on their boats?

I think I prefer language learning to boating or boat building myself.

They say the two best days of boat ownership are the day you get (or finish building and launch) the boat and the day you sell it!

And sailing is like standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 notes!

Apologies to boat owners and you Rick - I just thought your alternative was less appealing. I hope you are enjoying languages again, now.

[Xmmm]

For example, if I had invested the same amount of time and energy into learning a skill like boat building then I would probably be writing this from below deck of my own personal catamaran which I'd build myself. So in my head I'm not thinking should I continue, but rather what is the payoff if I continue. I don't particularly like studying, I'm not particularly enamoured with French culture or TV, or films.

I agree, but wouldn't describe it in terms of ROI. Maybe more like self-actualization. Rdearman of 2022 is going to look like something. What do you want him to look like? Boat builder, or French speaker? If it's boat builder, you should drop French and get started on the boat tomorrow.

[gsbod]

I put about five years of effort into learning Japanese, always aiming to hit the C levels but gave up after passing JLPT N2. I hit the wall where my frustrations at lack of progress were counterbalanced by the lack of reasons to use the language. Speaking opportunities are, at best, sporadic. Accessing native media legally is difficult (at least if you're not into cartoons about robots). I knew I didn't want to work there, and regular tourist trips are out of the question. Eventually I realised it wasn't worth the effort to hit the C levels and moved on to other things.

Japanese still felt like unfinished business for a long time - pretty much until my German ability exceeded my Japanese at it's peak. I'm now aiming squarely at C1 German and still feel excited about the challenges rather than the growing hopelessness I felt about Japanese. The difference is that I have so many reasons to use German.

What I'm trying to say is, quit French and learn German

[smallwhite]

So one can't learn too slowly afterall. One has to reach their goals or expectations before frustration kicks in and they start to blame factors that had always existed.

I was wondering how rdearman would learn to build a boat. If it's not particularly promising that he'd make it over there, I thought he might as well just stay here. At least we're reasonably nice and civilised here. Who knows, on boat-building forums they might talk about politics and religion more than they talk about boats. It might take them forever to fix forum outages, with no communication of any kind, and their captchas would probably be even harder to answer. I bet they don't have progress bars either.

PS. Out of French, Spanish, Italian and German, I think French requires the least studying (grammar etc).

[rdearman]

if I had invested the same amount of time and energy into learning a skill like boat building then I would probably be writing this from below deck of my own personal catamaran which I'd build myself.

How would you learn boat building? By reading books on the subject? By SRSing names of boat parts and watching hundreds of hours of people sailing on their boats?

No, I would download plans from the Internet (actually I already have some). I would purchase some wood, epoxy, fibreglass tape, since I have just about everything else I need. I would then loft the plans on to the wood. Stitch and glue the wood together. Epoxy the seams, then fibreglass the seams and then the hull. I would paint it, rig it. Then let is sit in my garage, since I don't actually know how to sail a boat.

But the difference is there is one dependency boat building doesn't have, which language learning does. You need people to speak to in order to learn a language. To build a boat you just need instructions.

@ Adrianslont - Don't worry, boat building was a skill more or less taken at random.

[rdearman]

What I'm trying to say is, quit French and learn German

Oh no! I don't need yet another language.

[smallwhite]

... since I don't actually know how to sail a boat.

But the difference is there is one dependency boat building doesn't have, which language learning does. You need people to speak to in order to learn a language. To build a boat you just need instructions.

If 4, 6 years later you still can't manage to build your dream boat, you'll start thinking "why bother", "I don't actually know how to sail a boat" just the same. A pre-existing condition, a newly-discovered obstacle, a potential barrier, you'll find something. When was the grass ever greener on the other side. Were Italian, Mandarin and Finnish greener than French?

[iguanamon]

While it is true that I don't particularly like the idea of sitting bend over "studying" grammar books, and I much prefer simply reading and watching TV, I have read Italian Grammar books, I just didn't study them. Same with French, I have read grammar books, but not really studied them.

It's kind of like putting together something that requires assembly or fixing your laptop by installing new drivers because your video card crashed- sometimes, you have to read the instructions. I don't like to, but, there are times when I have to study grammar. Some people can do that in advance and like it. I tend to do it on an "as needed" basis and to clean things up.

Language learning is bloody hard work, but I've met a lot of great people and experienced a lot of cool things because of it, but it it something I need to get to a C level? Don't know. So, I have been questioning what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I have another question dear readers, if you're reading this log and you have a C level in a language. Why should I continue if I'm going to continue to live in a mono-lingual English country? Is there a factor I'm not taking into account? Something which will need more than holiday French or Italian? I've no plans to live or work there, so why should I bother?

I usually tell people who are thinking about quitting to do exactly that- quit! If you are satisfied with what you can do in Italian and French, maintain it and move on.

Leosmith has learned several languages from different families (with a concentration on Asian languages) to B2 level and that's enough for him. B2 can give you most of the benefits that you get from C levels with a lot less effort. What one misses from not reaching the C levels, is nuance. It's like seeing through clean glasses vs seeing through dirty lenses.

I, too live and work in English. I most probably have more exposure to Spanish on a daily basis than you do to French or Italian, however, you know from having been involved with the forum for as long as I have that opportunities to use a language in such a situation must be made. You have to make it happen. Whether that's done by making a friend(s) in another language, making opportunities to use a language online, or in person.

I started off listening to the news/current events in Portuguese to help me learn the language. I continue with it because I enjoy it so much. Every day I learn something new about Brazil, Portugal, Africa. I learn about the environment, literature, culture, music, health and a lot of things that interest me. I'd do the same thing in English, and I enjoy listening to NPR too, but doing this in another language opens my mind to another perspective that I don't get here. That's one of the reasons I learn a language and why I wanted to learn it to a higher level to be able to understand the nuance.

I have no idea where you live in the south of England, but I'll bet there is somewhere you could use your French and Italian. Are there forums/facebook groups for French/Italian immigrants in your nearby area? Are there immigrants from Francophone Africa who would like help learning English? Is there a local school teacher of French who could benefit from some of your language-learning methods. Most of these folks have never even heard of the methods we use here everyday. Just some ideas.

I suppose the question is how much is enough? I've also worked out that I have two things working against me, the first is an innate propensity to laziness, and the second is I'm not naturally gifted with a brain which learns languages easily. The second thing means I have to work harder, and the first thing means I'm not going to do that.

I think you've answered your own question. "Enough" is defined by your level of satisfaction with where you are. If you are satisfied with what you can do, then you don't need to go farther. You don't have to take a language to C level to have it be beneficial to you. Nor do you have to be a polyglot just because a lot of members here are. Neither do you have to continue "studying" in order to run the forum. Not being "gifted" is not an excuse. Your brain is more than adequate to learn a second language. "Laziness", that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Weren't you the one who advised a member to "swallow some frogs" when she was complaining about a course and wanted to learn a language? Good advice you gave, perhaps you should take it yourself if you want to advance further. Of course, catch 22. Being lazy is, indeed, an excuse, though perhaps not a particularly valid one.

I'm pretty lazy too, I'd much rather read and watch a series. Reading and watching series have taken me (and others) a long way in language-learning. Reading, watching and listening can only take my learning so far. In order to really learn the language, I have to use it in some way.

If I work out that it is something I need/want to accomplish then I can harness my laziness to help me find quicker and more effective ways to learn faster and better. To paraphrase Bill Gates; Find a lazy person to do the job, because they will find a quicker and easier way to do it. The original reason for this log's title and the question which started it was all about finding more effective, faster methods of learning so my lazy self could take time off.

These "more effective, faster methods of learning" work well to get someone more quickly from A0 to B1/B2. After that, the effectiveness of gimmicks and shortcuts starts to diminish. I've found that I have to do the work to make it happen. As emk points out, subs2srs can even help learners at high levels but can it bring you to C-levels? In my experience, I don't think that any one particular resource, no matter how good and effective can do that in itself. I think there's just too much going on with language-learning in the mind for any one particular resource to do the trick. In my experience, it's about consolidation. Each skill in a language informs the other, in my experience. They each have a synergistic effect on the other and allow me to make the leap. They don't have to be all balanced equally, but I have seen, for me, that I need to practice them all to a certain extent.

You can study another language, or not. You are already way ahead of the game with the vast majority of your fellow English-speakers on both sides of the Atlantic. How many of them can watch a French series or film without English subtitles? How many of them can read non-translated French or Italian literature. You know the answer. If I had a dollar for every monolingual English-speaker who has expressed a desire to be able to speak a second language, after they've heard me do it, I'd be a rich tailor. I'd say, you are less "lazy" than you think you are.

[Jar-Ptitsa]

If you want to speak French in London you should go to South Kensington.