Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

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stell
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby stell » Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:26 pm

I actually dropped Italian in large part because I couldn't find any Italian TV shows that I enjoyed! I didn't have anyone to talk to in Italian, and it just seemed silly to keep learning Italian just to watch dubbed Star Trek. :lol: I figured that there must be some media out there that I didn't know about.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby rdearman » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:11 pm

stell wrote:I actually dropped Italian in large part because I couldn't find any Italian TV shows that I enjoyed! I didn't have anyone to talk to in Italian, and it just seemed silly to keep learning Italian just to watch dubbed Star Trek. :lol: I figured that there must be some media out there that I didn't know about.

Actually, it has got a lot better since I was watching Carabinieri ! I've been watching a show based on a series of mystery novels. Ice Cold Murders: Rocco Schiavone. I don't know if you can access it where you are, but it is a very good drama. With good acting and not just gratuitous sex scenes and naked women. Although they do have at least one partially naked woman per season. I think it might be a contractual obligation on Italian TV. But the actual content is good, and follows the books well I'm told. I also like Inspector Montalbano. They do seem to have got better, or maybe I just didn't have access to anything decent at the time.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby stell » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:38 pm

rdearman wrote:Actually, it has got a lot better since I was watching Carabinieri ! I've been watching a show based on a series of mystery novels. Ice Cold Murders: Rocco Schiavone. I don't know if you can access it where you are, but it is a very good drama. With good acting and not just gratuitous sex scenes and naked women. Although they do have at least one partially naked woman per season. I think it might be a contractual obligation on Italian TV. But the actual content is good, and follows the books well I'm told. I also like Inspector Montalbano. They do seem to have got better, or maybe I just didn't have access to anything decent at the time.

Filing away for future reference!
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby Le Baron » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:54 pm

This is why I tend to stick to films (and older ones in general). In toying with Italian and having a look at general TV I was aghast to find the things listed in the rant above. Luckily Italy has put out a great deal of excellent cinema to counterbalance this.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby gsbod » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:48 pm

rdearman wrote:Some people do C1 in a year, and C2 in 2 years, then moan about it taking too long because they want to move on to something else like German or Spanish.


Seriously, who are these people? Admittedly, I don't really engage with polyglot events and the like, so maybe I'm missing out on something, but back here in the real world I can count on one hand the number of people I've met who have reached a C2+ level in any language, and it took them several years, plus a great deal of obsessive interest in the language, to get there.

I have met a lot more people who have reached C1 (nearly all of them in German, funnily enough) and they, too, took several years to get there.

Back in 2014, I started studying an evening course in German at A2 level. After 4 years, me and one of my classmates from 2014 had made it to C1 level. Everyone else had either quit completely or were still working their way through the B levels. That's the reality for most people, not C1 in a year from scratch.

I don't mean to be discouraging here at all, in fact quite the opposite. When I was learning Japanese (as my first foreign language as an adult), I also heard the stories about some guy passing JLPT level 1 after 12 months, or 18 months, or 2 years, not to mention all the claims being made around AJATT. So when I was still nowhere near that level after 2 years myself, that was discouraging.

Even now, with the experience of getting N2 level in Japanese and getting to a C1 level in German, I'm now learning Spanish and thinking about how long it will take to make progress. It took me a few months of study in 2020 to reach A1, after which I took a long break. Having picked it up again last October, I think I can get to A2 this summer. Then I'll be looking at another year to get to B1. Then another year to get to B2, and that is only if I can find enough reasons to use the language to make it worth my while, otherwise I'll park it with my B1 French.

It's a long old road. I think it's worth it though.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby rdearman » Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:04 pm

gsbod wrote:It's a long old road. I think it's worth it though.


I have been doing some "back of the fag packet" calculations. (British Idiom)

Working with the FSI numbers for Korean (2200 to C1) and then doubling it to 4400 simply because they aren't including study time outside of class, I think I arrive at a fairly realistic starting point. Then I broke that down by division by 50% to arrive at:
  • A1 = 275 hours
  • A2 = 275 hours
  • B1 = 550 hours
  • B2 = 1100 hours
  • B1 = 2200 hours

So in my theory 275 hours of work will get you to the top end of A1, another 275 gets you to the top of A2, etc. Assuming the above hours for the above levels, and the fact I can do ~430-645 hours before 1st of September, which is when I plan to go back to Korea, then in theory I could potentially hit the mid point of B1 in Korean, and the top of C1 in ~6 years.

As I point of reference, I used Leosmith as an example. He was doing ~7 hours per day for 1 year, and he estimated he was B2. So 7 hours per day for 365 days is 2555, which does sort of line up with my BoFP calculations. I'm a big fan of SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess).

I think I might post this somewhere and get more opinions from people who've done Cat 5 languages and see if this model stands up.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby gsbod » Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:40 pm

I think the issue with FSI estimates is that they are estimates for students they have selected who have shown some kind of ability on their entrance tests and are then hot housed on a dedicated programme of full time study. It doesn't really match the experience of the majority of adult learners who still have to go out and earn a living and patch together their own programme of study in their spare time.

That being said...having looked at my 6WC scores over the years, and working on the assumption that for most 6WCs I was probably working at a higher than average intensity, an average 10 hours a week of study is not an unreasonable estimate for how much time I spent on Japanese overall. It took me around 4.5 years to get my N2 (roughly B2 level). Which adds up to around 2300 hours. So there you go!
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby CDR » Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:19 pm

rdearman wrote:I think I might post this somewhere and get more opinions from people who've done Cat 5 languages and see if this model stands up.


The hour total goal I use for my log was stolen from Wikipedia, whose source is this URL:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151117033458/http://www.studytoday.com/JLPT.asp?lang=EN

The table is useful because those are "all in" hours:
The above stats is for full-time language students studying in Japan. Students average 40 weeks of classes per year at 32.4 study hours per week, which includes: class hours, homework, class preparation, and personal study hours.

It seems they sourced this info from somewhere else, but they never left a citation. Your calculations fall into those ranges, if you compare based on the JLPT -> CEFR table on the JLPT's Wikipedia page.

I've studied Japanese for 638h21m17s. I can pass the JLPT N4 (A2 "equivalent" per Wikipedia) under mock conditions at home, and I recently failed an in-person N3 (B1 equivalent). So that lines up with your calculations, and theirs.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby rdearman » Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:09 pm

Italian
An actual update rather than a rant. Being so annoyed and sick of Pimsleur I decided to jump back on the language exchange bandwagon (I'm writing this while waiting for someone who is likely to be a no-show). I've done two language exchanges in Italian, and I've one more scheduled for this evening. It is honestly super easy to find Italians to talk to, and they are rarely if ever a no-show. Perhaps because Italian is less popular on exchange sites with English speakers? Who knows. I do know that I could probably do 8 hours of language exchanges in Italian every day if I wanted to.

I did have one person who couldn't make it, but I don't consider them a no-show, since they contacted me before the call and told me they'd been called into work and asked to reschedule.

I'm also watching some Italian crime drama, but have been sidetracked by a good Korean drama.

Regardless, I have 2 (or 3) new Italians to talk to weekly.
French
I've done one language exchange in French with 3 no-shows, and the person I'm waiting on now is also French. As a culture, the French seem to have more of a propensity to waste the time of other people. I'm only basing this on anecdotal evidence from the hundreds of language exchanges I've done over the years. They are much more likely to be no-shows or to "ghost" you after one meeting. But obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, after all I've been speaking to one lady for well over 5 years now on a semi-weekly basis.

Korean
I've also sparked up a couple more language exchanges in Korean. These are less productive for me since I really cannot speak other than a few canned phrases. However, I've been getting a lot of advice as well as answers to some of the questions I'm having. I've still been doing my review of my classes I did last year, when I'm translating the screenshots of what my teacher had written and expanding my notes. I'm also reading another grammar book.

It is very helpful to have a Korean person explain when I have questions.

I've binge-watched a lot of Korean shows, that is still ongoing, and when I think I can stomach it, I listen to 30 minutes of Pimsleur.

General Stuff
So no problems with either French or Italian LE's, although I can be a little rusty, and it is sometimes difficult to get off the mark. My reading challenge is sort of stalling. Mostly because I am currently reading some big thick tomes. It looks like I will also need to convert the Super Challenge bot over to Mastadon, what a pain.
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Re: Rdearman 2016-23 I’m not superstitious, just a little stitious.

Postby rdearman » Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:55 pm

Italian
I'm slowly plodding through another Italian book, but honestly I think I'm going to just give it up. The story isn't really that interesting for me. I continue watching that crime drama, but intermittently, since I got caught up in a very good Koran drama. But that is over now. I've got 3-4 Italian exchanges during the week, so that keeps me busy. One lady likes to read a book in English and get help with pronunciation. I don't mind this, but I don't like doing it myself, although I can see its usefulness. But it seems a lot more like studying with a teacher than having a conversation.

French
Lots of language exchanges in French. So many in fact that I missed one. I don't think I have ever just forgotten one before! Normally I have everything in my calendar but for some reason I didn't put this one in, and it was on Facebook Messenger, which I don't really use. Anyway, I have about 4-5 more French people to talk to, and I've done a lot of exchanges this week and last. Not doing anything else in French.

Korean
Lots of work on Korean! I'm still translating and writing up all my notes from all the lessons I had last year. I also have 2 more language exchange partners who are helping me with some speaking practice. I'm still unconfident and basically crap at it.

I have downloaded 153 of the IYAGI - Natural Korean Conversations For Learners and I have transcripts for them. So I've started listening on repeat and translation of the transcripts. I'm trying to do Ari's Chinese Pod system with the podcasts. Hopefully this will be helpful. I'm spending at least 2 hours per day on Korean (not counting the 3–4 hours per night watching dramas with my wife) and I hope to make some progress. Programming has cut into my time dramatically.
I stopped writing a Korean diary, but I'm thinking I need to pick that back up again. When I was reviewing my notes from my lessons, I came upon the lesson set about time and dates. Writing the date and times in the diary certainly solidified all those words and things in my brain.

General Stuff
Been working on an email alternative for reporting Super Challenge scores and I think it is 99% done, but I was sending so many test messages back and forth I got my email account blacklisted. Although after 5 days solid of python programming, I can say with certainty that I still hate python. It is an abnormal abomination of a programming language. White space isn't a delimiter, but if you are going to use something invisible as a delimiter, you could at least give a decent error message when I put a space instead of a tab. :roll: Hope to do a release tomorrow after more testing.

My reading has trailed off (more like fell off a cliff) because of all the other stuff I have been doing. Plus, the books I'm currently reading are a bit rubbish. So I might just write them off and find something more interesting to read.

I worked out that I've had 16 language exchanges since my last post. Sounds a bit like the start of a 12-step program. But I don't mind them, the French and Italian ones are always a bit of fun, and the Korean ones are basically a chat in English where we occasionally touch on the subject of Korean.
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