Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

[PeterMollenburg]

Removed my own post as doesn't pertain to languages/language learning. I have replied to David27 via PM and sent a copy to Rick. If anyone else is curious about my reply I can send a copy to them, but it felt highly inappropriate to post a highly charged lengthy debate on medical treatments in rdearman's log. It's so easy (for me at least) to want to reply to things I just don't agree with and then find myself writing massively long posts on all kinds of... stuff.... I offered David27 an apology and stated I hold 99% of medical professionals in high-esteem, which I do (I see the fault with the system and those at the very top who have instigated it and control it's function and scope). I believe (medical professionals) are very caring individuals and I went on to provide my side of the story backed up (I believe) by plenty of evidence (which of course is debatable). I'll shut up now.

Edited because I couldn't resist saying more than necessary yet again

[smallwhite]

I've been thinking a lot about the language studying which I'm doing and I realise I've got a long hard road with a lot of work if I'm ever going to get to C1 in either French or Italian.

(1) After your Study ends end-January you will have statistics of what study methods work and what don't. You yourself designed the Study so the results should be very useful and insightful to you. In fact you'd become the most well-informed amongst us.

(2) My impression is that you know what methods have worked for others but you don't like them and you do what you enjoy instead. So you aren't getting satisfactory results, but you've been doing what you enjoy. That's not bad, no?

(3) You last did a Dialang test on page 32. How about taking another one now to see your progress?

[PeterMollenburg]

I am back to the conclusion learning a language just to learn a language is a waste of time. I need to do something with this timesink, I either need to start using the languages to learn something else, or in order to do something else, or I just need to stop. Economically my time would be better spent learning a programming language like Rust, Go, or Ruby on Rails, or get another qualification in ITIL, Prince II, or similar. There are about a hundred different things I could do with my leisure time which would show a practical benefit. Languages have no practical benefit for me, and takes up far to much time.

I've spent the last 20 weeks focused on French and I wonder if I should be flipping back to Italian for 20 weeks or so? But that would screw with doing a presentation in French in May. Or should I flip back to Italian and not bother with a presentation? Or should I go back to trying to balance them both? Need to change something, but I don't know what yet.

I realised the same thing some years ago, and I'm not saying that to be derogatory, i've been controversial enough lately. (I come waving white flags). I felt that it just takes an absolutely incredible amount of time to lean a language to advanced fluency (C1 and beyond). My solution was that I needed to live overseas to make the perseverance worthwhile. Your conlusions are also probably pretty similar for most people who live in monolingual environments (English or otherwise), and it makes perfect sense to me.

Still I think you must have enjoyed some of the process to be able to stick it out for as long as you have so far. Your desire to want to switch back to Italian is perhaps some evidence of burnout and you're a little overwhelmed by the long prospect of getting to C1 or so (don't I know that feeling!). I say be clear on what you want - do you really want C1 in French/Italian or are you finding the going tough and it's your way of saying stuff it all because you're tired of it all? I don't think there's any harm in ditching a(ll) languages if that's what you really want from life. Or, alternatively, take your time, don't be in a rush to get there, or don't have an end goal and just enjoy the languages for what they are. I don't really know what I'm on about here, I guess I just hope, for your sanity's sake, that you can find peace and the right choice for you (yes very sucky after my recent posts, which btw I meant no malice). Peace

[Elenia]

I agree with Peter - there must be something you enjoy, even it's just the company of the rest of us language nerds And remember - C1 isn't the end goal for all language learners, and it doesn't have to be for you. You can just meander along and do whatever pleases you with them. You can drop them for a while and do completely other things and come back to them when you feel like it. So on, so forth.

[rdearman]

(1) After your Study ends end-January you will have statistics of what study methods work and what don't. You yourself designed the Study so the results should be very useful and insightful to you. In fact you'd become the most well-informed amongst us.

(2) My impression is that you know what methods have worked for others but you don't like them and you do what you enjoy instead. So you aren't getting satisfactory results, but you've been doing what you enjoy. That's not bad, no?

(3) You last did a Dialang test on page 32. How about taking another one now to see your progress?

That is true, although I suspect the the results will be inconclusive, given that the statistics professor I spoke to said about 90% of well designed tests come up inconclusive.

While it is true that I don't particularly like the idea of sitting bend over "studying" grammar books, and I much prefer simply reading and watching TV, I have read Italian Grammar books, I just didn't study them. Same with French, I have read grammar books, but not really studied them. In fact I had the same problem with English and it wasn't until a few years ago when I actually needed to know that I sat down and truly studied English grammar, and I still make mistakes. My concern isn't just the more time consuming methods I'll probably need to use, but actually the amount of time required. Is it just Diminishing Returns to reach a goal that I don't actually know if I want to achieve?

You are correct, I should take the test again to see if I've improved.

I guess I just hope, for your sanity's sake, that you can find peace and the right choice for you (yes very sucky after my recent posts, which btw I meant no malice). Peace

It's fine, I started it.

I'm not in some deep depression or anything, it is just that I have an anki card (actually 6 - one in each deck I make) which pops up on occasion and the only thing it says is: "Memento mori" which is Latin for “Remember death.” I want this more or less random reminder to hit me and give me occasion to think that if I were to die tomorrow, am I doing today what I'd want to be? It popped up this morning, and I took a little bit of time to sit down and to evaluate the things I'm doing and wonder if it is really what I want.

Language learning is bloody hard work, but I've met a lot of great people and experienced a lot of cool things because of it, but it it something I need to get to a C level? Don't know. So, I have been questioning what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I have another question dear readers, if you're reading this log and you have a C level in a language. Why should I continue if I'm going to continue to live in a mono-lingual English country? Is there a factor I'm not taking into account? Something which will need more than holiday French or Italian? I've no plans to live or work there, so why should I bother?

I agree with Peter - there must be something you enjoy, even it's just the company of the rest of us language nerds And remember - C1 isn't the end goal for all language learners, and it doesn't have to be for you. You can just meander along and do whatever pleases you with them. You can drop them for a while and do completely other things and come back to them when you feel like it. So on, so forth.

Yeah, I like nerds.

I suppose the question is how much is enough? I've also worked out that I have two things working against me, the first is an innate propensity to laziness, and the second is I'm not naturally gifted with a brain which learns languages easily. The second thing means I have to work harder, and the first thing means I'm not going to do that.

This isn't a motivational thing. If I work out that it is something I need/want to accomplish then I can harness my laziness to help me find quicker and more effective ways to learn faster and better. To paraphrase Bill Gates; Find a lazy person to do the job, because they will find a quicker and easier way to do it. The original reason for this logs title and the question which started it was all about finding more effective, faster methods of learning so my lazy self could take time off.

[Systematiker]

If all your leisure time makes economical sense, it's not really leisure any more, is it?

If you're enjoying the process, or what you can do, or even just hanging out with people who do it, who cares if it is ultimately a waste of time? And if you're learning anything, or growing as a person at all, it's worth your time (remember, the concept of leisure used to be "free time to study", i.e. free time from labor so that one could develop the "arts of a free man.").

My suggestion is think more about it in terms of doing what you enjoy, and broadening the horizon, rather than "study" that you have to find a faster or more effective method for (and thus get to your "real" "time off" sooner). Scale back, or quit for a while, or do the same thing, but when you make it all metrics, you make it all work.

Play a little.

[rdearman]

If all your leisure time makes economical sense, it's not really leisure any more, is it?

If you're enjoying the process, or what you can do, or even just hanging out with people who do it, who cares if it is ultimately a waste of time? And if you're learning anything, or growing as a person at all, it's worth your time (remember, the concept of leisure used to be "free time to study", i.e. free time from labor so that one could develop the "arts of a free man.").

My suggestion is think more about it in terms of doing what you enjoy, and broadening the horizon, rather than "study" that you have to find a faster or more effective method for (and thus get to your "real" "time off" sooner). Scale back, or quit for a while, or do the same thing, but when you make it all metrics, you make it all work.

Play a little.

Reminds me of another little note I have in my anki deck. "If you're not learning or growing as a person, then all you're doing is dying." <-- my own little bit of wisdom.

I have mentioned before (somewhere deep in the back end of this log) is I'm tired of "learning" Italian or French, and I want to "use" it. After all I've invested a lot of time and effort into getting to my current level. Although I'm not particularly happy with the level I'm at, I feel that I should be doing something with it.

For example, if I had invested the same amount of time and energy into learning a skill like boat building then I would probably be writing this from below deck of my own personal catamaran which I'd build myself. So in my head I'm not thinking should I continue, but rather what is the payoff if I continue. I don't particularly like studying, I'm not particularly enamoured with French culture or TV, or films.

I'm sure that I'm not explaining this properly.

I glean from the replies I've got people think I have some kind of demotivation, or crisis of faith (no offence) going here, but that isn't the case. It is really just the card "Memento mori" which got me thinking; "Right, you've invested hundreds if not thousands of hours into this skill, what good is it to you?" Unfortunately the response which came back was; Not a lot.

Now the vast majority of my time "learning" at the moment is I read, I watch TV, and I do anki reps. But I could use those same anki reps to memorise something other than vocabulary. I could watch documentaries in English, and I could read books in English much faster.

So, Memento mori... remember death, and life is short. If I were to die tomorrow, would I be happy that I spent today learning a language? The answer is no, but, if I live longer than one day (and I certainly hope I do) am I doing something now, which will give me joy, happiness, or a skill I can use to create joy or happiness in my life?

Planes don't fly from LA to Hawaii in a straight line, every few minutes the navigator checks and if required makes course corrections. The reason I put these cards in the deck is so that on some random occasion the card will pop up and ask me if I need to do a course correction.

[tarvos]

I've no plans to live or work there, so why should I bother?

Language learning isn't limited to travel. I work with my languages from a small house in a village near The Hague every day. Every time there is a scheduling conflict for my classes, I am forced to use Russian to solve this. I have many friends that are not Dutch and therefore when they write me, they're using another language. When I go outside, I don't just hear Dutch on the street - sometimes I hear Chinese, English, Polish, Russian or Greek. I've even heard Korean! My brother once worked in a toy store in a village and there would be foreigners coming to his store to buy toys, and they didn't speak Dutch (not tourists either). Sometimes a foreigner asks me the way and I am forced to reply in language X.

When people find out I speak their language, they open up just a little more, even when they are the ones abroad.

[Elenia]

I don't particularly like studying, I'm not particularly enamoured with French culture or TV, or films.

I started writing a post and then gave up and did something else, but the main point of it was that I dropped French like a hot brick. Like you, I'm not enamoured with French culture or most of the media output I've come across (there are exceptions). I'm much more amenable to occasionally doing things with French when I want to now that I've decided I owe nothing to French and don't need to force myself to learn it simply because I had spent so much time on it.

I didn't read it as you losing motivation, btw. A course consideration (and change) is definitely worthy. And whatever you're not enjoying (which, right now, I get the feeling that it's French) - well, see above point about hot bricks.

(That being said, maybe you should wait until after May, now that you're signed up for the gathering and all...)

[tarvos]

French culture is overrated, but I still like using French, mostly when there's a practical reason for me to do so.