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zenmonkey
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:50 pm

iguanamon wrote:More number use is the key. Haitian Creole uses the same French numbers. After I finished Genesis and the first chapters of Numbers in the Bible, I have no problems with them. The HC version of the Bible writes out the numbers in words alongside the numerical. Another key that I found helpful to me was not to think in terms of addition for 70-99 but that "swasandis" = seventy; katrevendisnèf = 89; swasankatòz = 74; etc. So in my mind it's not "sixty fourteen" but seventy four.


Pretty much. quatre-vingt = 80 not 4 times 20. quatre fois vingt.
And damn it - you work with computers, should be ok with non decimal systems....

1. Oksapmin, base-27 body part counting
...

The Oksapmin people of New Guinea have a base-27 counting system. The words for numbers are the words for the 27 body parts they use for counting, starting at the thumb of one hand, going up to the nose, then down the other side of the body to the pinky of the other hand, as shown in the drawing. 'One' is tip^na (thumb), 6 is dopa (wrist), 12 is nata (ear), 16 is tan-nata (ear on the other side), all the way to 27, or tan-h^th^ta (pinky on the other side).

2. Tzotzil, base-20 body part counting
Tzotzil, a Mayan language spoken in Mexico, has a vigesimal, or base-20, counting system. Why might a base-20 system come about? Fingers and toes! For numbers above 20, you refer to the digits of the next full man (vinik). Twenty-one is jun scha'vinik (first digit of the second man), 42 is chib yoxvinik (second digit of the third man), and 70 is lajuneb chanvinik (tenth digit of the fourth man).

3. Yoruba, base-20 with subtraction
Yoruba, a Niger-Congo language spoken in West Africa, also has a base-20 system, but it is complicated by the fact that for each 10 numbers you advance, you add for the digits 1-4 and subtract for the digits 5-9. Fourteen (??rinlá) is 10+4 while 17 (eétàdílógún) is 20-3. So, combining base-20 and subtraction means 77 is m?tadil?g?rin, or (20x4)-3.

4. Traditional Welsh, base-20 with a pivot at 15
Though modern Welsh uses base-10 numbers, the traditional system was base-20, with the added twist of using 15 as a reference point. Once you advance by 15 (pymtheg) you add units to that number. So 16 is un ar bymtheg (one on 15), 36 is un ar bymtheg ar hugain (one on 15 on 20), and so on.

5. Alamblak, numbers built from 1, 2, 5, and 20
In Alamblak, a language of Papua New Guinea, there are only words for 1, 2, 5, and 20, and all other numbers are built out of those. So 14 is (5x2)+2+2, or tir hosfi hosfihosf, and 59 is (20x2)+(5x(2+1))+(2+2) or yima hosfi tir hosfirpati hosfihosf.

6. Ndom, base-6
Ndom, another language of Papua New Guinea, has a base-6, or senary number system. It has basic words for 6, 18, and 36 (mer, tondor, nif) and other numbers are built with reference to those. The number 25 is tondor abo mer abo sas (18+6+1), and 90 is nif thef abo tondor ((36x2)+18).

7. Huli, base-15
The Papua New Guinea language Huli uses a base-15, or pentadecimal system. Numbers which are multiples of 15 are simple words. Where the English word for 225 is quite long, the Huli word is ngui ngui, or 15 15. However 80 in Huli is ngui dau, ngui waragane-gonaga duria ((15x5)+the 5th member of the 6th 15).

8. Bukiyip, base-3 and base-4 together
In Bukiyip, another Papua New Guinea language also known as Mountain Arapesh, there are two counting systems, and which one you use depends on what you are counting. Coconuts, days, and fish are counted in base-3. Betel nuts, bananas, and shields are counted in base-4. The word anauwip means 6 in the base-3 system and 24 in the base-4 system!

9. Supyire, numbers built from 1, 5, 10, 20, 80, and 400
Supyire, a Niger-Congo language spoken in Mali has basic number words for 1, 5, 10, 20, 80 and 400, and builds the rest of the numbers from those. The word for 600 is kàmpwòò ná ?kwuu shuuní ná bééshùùnnì, or 400+(80x2)+(20x2)

10. Danish, forms some multiples of ten with fractions
Danish counting looks pretty familiar until you get to 50, and then things get weird with fractions. The number 50 is halvtreds, a shortening of halv tred sinds tyve ("half third times 20" or 2½x20). The number 70 is 3½x20, and 90 is 4½x20.

11. French, mix of base-10 and base-20
French uses base-10 counting until 70, at which point it transitions to a mixture with base-20. The number 70 is soixante-dix (60+10), 80 is quatre-vingts (4x20), and 90 is quatre-vingts-dix ((4x20)+10).

12. Nimbia, base-12
Even though, as the dozenalists claim, 12 is the best base mathematically, there are relatively few base-12 systems found in the world's languages. In Nimbia, a dialect of the Gwandara language of Nigeria, multiples of 12 are the basic number words around which everything else is built. The number 29 is gume bi ni biyar ((12x2)+5), and 95 is gume bo'o ni kwada ((12x7)+11).

You can see more number systems .... Many of the more exotic ones are dying out. David K. Harrison's book When Languages Die explains how we lose "an important window into human cognition, problem-solving, and adaptation" when these number systems disappear.

from
http://mentalfloss.com/article/31879/12 ... -languages
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby rdearman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:50 pm

arthaey wrote:
rdearman wrote:There was a margin of error listed on the espeak website about the IPA produced, but even if only 80% is correct it's still better than what I'm currently doing. I would still look it up if I was completely unsure.

I don't know if it's any more accurate, but here's another site that will take French words (or phrases or sentences!) and output IPA: https://easypronunciation.com/en/french-phonetic-transcription-converter

Yeah, I tried that one, but they have a character limit for how many you can do at one time, where as the opensource espeak does unlimited sizes.
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby rdearman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:52 pm

iguanamon wrote:More number use is the key. Haitian Creole uses the same French numbers. After I finished Genesis and the first chapters of Numbers in the Bible, I have no problems with them. The HC version of the Bible writes out the numbers in words alongside the numerical. Another key that I found helpful to me was not to think in terms of addition for 70-99 but that "swasandis" = seventy; katrevendisnèf = 89; swasankatòz = 74; etc. So in my mind it's not "sixty fourteen" but seventy four.

I was thinking along the same lines. I need to not "think" about the number, but rather just recognise the word when it is said as the number itself. I think this is just a LOT of practice required.
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby rdearman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:56 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Pretty much. quatre-vingt = 80 not 4 times 20. quatre fois vingt.
And damn it - you work with computers, should be ok with non decimal systems....

You have no idea how long it took me to wrap my head about binary and hexadecimal numbers. However it is nice to tell people that I'm only 34 (in hex) :lol:
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:45 pm

rdearman wrote:... then I wrote a script to generate the IPA into a file.

Programmers must be the best language learners - they can create any resource they want in any format they like! I spent hours and hours looking up IPA word by word on Wiktionary and copying them one by one onto my Russian flashcards which themselves were made one by one, while programmers talk about tapping online dictionary databases to create 100k cards in one go...
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby arthaey » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:58 pm

smallwhite wrote:Programmers must be the best language learners - they can create any resource they want in any format they like! I spent hours and hours looking up IPA word by word on Wiktionary and copying them one by one onto my Russian flashcards which themselves were made one by one, while programmers talk about tapping online dictionary databases to create 100k cards in one go...

It's true that I find my ability to program a big help in customizing my study materials.

It wouldn't take too much studying & practice for you to learn to, for example, write a script to automatically look up IPA for words and create a CSV file for you to import into Anki. If you wanted to learn and decided to set aside the time to do so, that is. :)
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby smallwhite » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:32 pm

arthaey wrote:It wouldn't take too much studying & practice for you to learn to, for example, write a script to automatically look up IPA for words and create a CSV file for you to import into Anki.

I do know some scripting, which makes me realise your advantage even more. I find the coding itself quite accessible, but the technology part not. Eg. environmental variables, paths, processes, protocols, ports.
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:13 pm

smallwhite wrote:
arthaey wrote:It wouldn't take too much studying & practice for you to learn to, for example, write a script to automatically look up IPA for words and create a CSV file for you to import into Anki.

I do know some scripting, which makes me realise your advantage even more. I find the coding itself quite accessible, but the technology part not. Eg. environmental variables, paths, processes, protocols, ports.


The other side of the coin is when a programmer falls in love with the tools and making those gazillion materials that he or she may never use.
In all thinks, some balance - I'm certainly guilty of spending too much time playing with a tool only to find out that I've lost days of study time cleaning up code...
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby blaurebell » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:19 am

I actually declared language learning a coding free zone many years ago, because I'm the kind of coder who gets "20h later, forgot to eat and sleep, shouldn't it be daytime instead of sunrise?!" experiences while coding. Too much of a time sink!

As for French numbers: They used to fly past me on the radio too. What helped me was to read a history book - history of photography in that case - and subvocalise every single number instead of reading over them. After 200 pages I pretty much had them down.
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Re: Rdearman (FR, IT, ZH) 2016/17 - The way of the lazy fist.

Postby smallwhite » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:43 am

So a programmer gets his IPA script tool AND gets to practise coding and accumlate experience favourable for his job, while I spend 50+ hours on my vocabulary list and still only have 1232 English translations and 1277 IPA notations and 3600 more to go, when I really should be reading my accounting journal. The programmers are at more advantage than I had thought!
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