Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

[PeterMollenburg]

Well after only a few days of not watching shows in Italian, I find Italian completely incomprehensable. I don't know why I bother.

I always find the best solution is to do more courses. See below:

Got the flu? Do more language courses!
Hungry? Forget food, do more language courses!
Thirsty? Forget water! Water's for the weak! Do more language courses!
Already advanced in French, do more French language courses!
Finding Italian incomprehensible, do more Italian language courses!


** I do sincerely hope this issue of yours rdearman goes away of its own accord.

[Brun Ugle]

Well after only a few days of not watching shows in Italian, I find Italian completely incomprehensable. I don't know why I bother.

I have the same problem. My skills can disappear at any time, without notice.

[rdearman]

Well, tonight was better. I didn't watch any Italian TV, instead I talked to some of my exchange partners. 2 in French, 1 in Italian. So 1 hour of French, 1/2 hour of Italian. But it wasn't too bad. I find that I understand speaking with people better than watching TV. I don't know why this is, or how much more I understand, only that it feels like I know more. Still I do manage a conversation, so it isn't too bad.

Interestingly I discovered my CEO's son is doing a work experiance with our company, and he is sitting in my department. Normally this wouldn't interest me one iota, except this young man's father is French... Now I need to decide if I have enough bottle to brutally destroy this young man's language without getting the sack.

We are now in Polyglot Month, and I had printed my presentation out in order to memorise and practice it. After taking great care to print it out with all the notes, etc. I forgot the bloody thing and left it on my desk at home. So that is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

I have also somehow managed to consume 20GB of mobile data in the first 3 days of the month. Sigh. Now I have to do without.

I have the same problem. My skills can disappear at any time, without notice.

At least you have skills! BTW, one of my exchange partners wants to switch out one of her partners. He is japanese but wants to learn English, so the French lady practices English with him. I'm thinking surely there is someone who wants to learn Japanese?

Do more language courses!

Or poke your eyes out with a fork. Feels about the same to me.

but hesitate lest the heart conveys some kind of nonexistent schadenfreude.

I have no idea what that word means. But don't worry you can heart my misery, after all my children just laugh. (They LITERALLY laughed at me when I broke 3 ribs trying to use a skateboard)

I feel you! I lost 4 days this month in the 365 challenge and when I went back to where I was in Pimsleur it was like I'd never studied Italian!

If consistancy is king then I'm the court jester! I suppose everyone has felt the backslide when you take time out. At least it was only a few days, hopefully you'll catch back up quick.

[zenmonkey]

My certified B2 German disappeared yesterday when we had our exchange session. Today it is back.

Weather vs Climate.

Don't worry too much about the weather.

[rdearman]

Got introduced to the CEO's son today. Forgot his name within seconds (I'm terrible with names) but did manage 5-10 minutes of French conversation. Two LE's tomorrow, one French & one Italian.

[rdearman]

I had two language exchanges yesterday, but one I missed, so I only managed to do French. I sat down afterward and decided to watch a couple of French TV shows I have saved to disk. I watched episode 1 series 1 of Engrenage. I was pleasantly suprised that I understood some of it, probably more than I did the first couple times I've watched it. Tonight I watched a bit of Mafiosa - Le Clan and understood more than I did previously. Still don't understand enough. But oh well.

I find it very frustrating that I can't fully understand TV shows even after years and years. This is why I think this probably isn't the hobby for me. Perhaps I should pick something else.

[Elsa Maria]

I find it very frustrating that I can't fully understand TV shows even after years and years. This is why I think this probably isn't the hobby for me. Perhaps I should pick something else.

I have the same problem with Danish TV shows. I can watch the news, I can hold conversations, and I can listen to (some) podcasts with good comprehension. TV show comprehension remains elusive. But I know native Danes who complain about mumbling actors and turn the subtitles on when watching TV at home. Danish cinemas now put Danish subtitles on Danish films! Maybe you are being too hard on yourself. I've decided to stop feeling bad about using the subtitles.

[rdearman]

At this point in my language learning I think most people on the internet are lying if they say they are advanced after only several hundred hours. Not a chance. And I think the polyglots have different goals (and ideas about what "fluent" means) than you or I seem to. And that's fine, good for them and good for us... but the problem is we all use the same words ("fluent," "advanced," etc.) but we mean different things when we say them. And I think that benefits the Youtubers more than it benefits other people who want to get every ounce out of a language.

I don't think they are lying, but I do think people have different perceptions of "good". For example, as I said recently I had a short conversation with my CEO's son in French, and someone asked me "How did you pick up French?" I replied that I just saw it there on the road and nobody else was using it... But after the joke the fellow was telling me he lived in China for a year, so I said. "我会说一点普通话可是我说的不好", "wo hui shuo yidian putonghua keshi wo shuo de bu hao" which is "I can speak a little mandarin, but not very well".

That sounds impressive, but it is just a stock phrase I memorised in Mandarin. The French wasn't scripted I was constructing those sentences and responses "on the fly". So while the observer might think I'm "good at languages" or my Chinese is good, after that stock phrase I'm lost. So for me my Chinese is "non-existant" my French (and Italian) is barely tolerable since I have only a basic understanding. I can have a conversation, but once the conversation goes a little "off piste" and away from everyday small talk then I start to struggle.

So good, fluent, etc are all relative to where you stand. If you're at the beginning then someone further ahead is impressive, someone more advanced and near the end (C2 being the end in my book) then they are awesome.

Why did you start French, and why are you still doing it? And Italian?

Well I started French so I would know what those redacted were saying about me when I worked for a French company. I started Italian because I got frustrated on a trip to Italy because things went wrong because I couldn't make myself understood.

Are you getting joy from the other things you do in these languages

I started to say no to this, but after a lot of reflection I'll upgrade it to a maybe. I do like the shows I have watched in French and Italian, which fuels my frustration because I want it to be transparent. I'm sure I'm missing so much and this is a lot of where I get annoyed. I speak to a lot of people in either French or Italian, and I know a lot more people because of learning (all be it poorly) these languages. I like them and have made friends, so it does give me joy, but also even more frustration that I can't have the depth of conversation, or witty repartee in them.

If you stopped all language learning activities today, what would you do instead? (Obviously you don't have to answer these here, or at all, you've probably thought about them at various times during your studies already. But I'm kind of curious what someone farther along the path than I am thinks.)

Ahhh freedom! I'm going to be totally honest with you, I do as near to zero "study" in languages as you can get. Before I started this new job I was doing 20 minutes stints of actual study time in French, Italian, Setswana and Mandarin. This has simply become two activites; watch TV and do language exchanges. I have even stopped anki decks for the most part since I really don't get time to do even them during the day, and I'm knackered at night.

If I stopped doing language completely, I have a loooongggg list of things which I should/want be doing. I have 3 partially written books to complete, I have a list of about 20 YouTube tutorials I need to do. I have a podcast I want to start. I want to learn to fly a airplane. I need to get my motorcycle license renewed, I have two partially completed computer programs to get done. I have a huge list of math books I want to study and complete. I plan to take a couple of weeks and learn to do some oil painting. I would like to build a boat, learn to sail, learn to scuba dive. I have run 2 marathons and 2 half-marathons, but I really would like to do a sub four hour marathon. I make knives as a hobby but I don't have a forge and I'd like to learn to blacksmith. I used to be a cook in a resturant when I was young and I still love to cook, I want to attend a "cordon vert" course (like cordon blu but for vegetarians)

I find it funny when people say things like "Once you retire you'll be bored." er... no I don't think so!

However, it has been pointed out to me that knowing a language could help me to accomplish some of these things. And hopefully at the begining of next year it will, since I'm taking 2 weeks out and doing a painting course in France, in French. I already watch a lot of foody shows in Italian and French as well as one in Mandarin (although I have to depend on the visuals). I have a random Wikipedia page as my web-browser home page in French, so I read a fair bit of French, and I have a few books in Italian I need to work my way through as well.

I think I have mentioned it before somewhere in my log that I really would like to break away from "learning languages" to get to the point of "using languages" for some of the long list of things I want to do.

I have the same problem with Danish TV shows ... I've decided to stop feeling bad about using the subtitles.

When I was in Denmark I had no problem watching TV because lots of shows were in English! But you are right, there is a lot of mumbling, shouting, and other incoherent stuff in a typical TV show. I have noticed this in English shows to where they are trying to give "local flavour" or mood to the show. I don't however have the advantage of subtitles for these shows I'm watching. They don't have them, and if I want to know what they are saying then I just have to figure it out. So you can see why my frustration level goes up, since I can't even use subtitles as a crutch!

I did use sub-titles a lot when I was watching Star Trek on Netflix in French. I'd decided to watch all of the Star Trek series in French, Original, TNG, DS9, etc. but because I could use subtitles I did, and so I read more than listened. Which is why I'm now using video without subtitles so it forces me to listen and improve comprehension.

Hopefully, I've answered the questions. I'm not really angry or planning to quit, it is just the frustration sometimes gets the best of me and I just want to down tools and walk away.

[Iversen]

I think the guy in the blue overall managed to say a few genuine Danish words, but apart from that it was pure nonsense all the way through ('sort tale', as we say in Danish). Maybe they were Norwegian, but they didn't speak Norwegian either. But some Danish film makers apparently try to make their actors speak in an 'authentic' way which is eerily akin to the sounds emitted by those Norwegians (without the Norwegian accent of course), and maybe sloppy Danes can sound like that when we do small talk among ourselves (without the Norwegian accent of course). But it is one thing to have people who know each other cut their lip movements down to the absolute minimum (or less) - after all most small talk is superfluous, and nobody dies because you don't listen. But if you make a film that should be shown to hundreds of thousands of people, some elderlay, some hearing impared, some living in 50 years from now and some munching popcorn or crisps from a rattling paper bag, then clearer speech would be just so nice to have. And when on top of that somebody like for instance mr Pfundheller and his Hammond organ (or whatever it is) hammers away at a sound level three times louder than the mumbling actors then by golly it is tempting to turn on the subtitles! Even for Danes!

Btw: my passive Norwegian is at a level where I can understand a TV program called 'Parlamentet', and that's enough for me. I think that this feat allows me to claim at least C1 for passive oral Norwegian - but I don't speak the language.

[PeterMollenburg]

I find it very frustrating that I can't fully understand TV shows even after years and years. This is why I think this probably isn't the hobby for me. Perhaps I should pick something else.

I have the same problem with Danish TV shows. I can watch the news, I can hold conversations, and I can listen to (some) podcasts with good comprehension. TV show comprehension remains elusive. But I know native Danes who complain about mumbling actors and turn the subtitles on when watching TV at home. Danish cinemas now put Danish subtitles on Danish films! Maybe you are being too hard on yourself. I've decided to stop feeling bad about using the subtitles.

And my issue with French TV still remains. It's certainly got a lot better now (especially if I'm not tired, which is rare, as I usually resort to TV when I'm tired and force myself to stay away because I'm engrossed in something... yeah, silly). But yes, it has taken me a looong time to gradually improve. Like Elsa Maria, the news, many podcasts and conversing are not an issue, but TV has a little ways to go.

My wife has resorted to using EN subtitles with EN TV shows most of the time. A habit born out of keeping the TV low when the kids are asleep. Now she finds that when it's no longer required (because the kids are not asleep or they are far enough from the TV), that she has become so used to it, she finds it tricky at times to understand dialogues without EN subtitles.

I've not watched Engrenages for so long, for the reason that it's generally a pretty tough show to follow in French. When I used to watch it a couple years back, I did not follow that much in French, most of the time instead reading the EN subtitles.

Keep it up rdearman, you'll get there in due course if you remain consistent.

edit:

I find it funny when people say things like "Once you retire you'll be bored." er... no I don't think so!

Me too! And I find it crazy or very positive that people like their jobs so much when the question goes- 'Would you keep working if you won the lotto?' And they answer with- 'I'd keep working.' Not me! Way too many languages to learn, places to see and other hobbies to take on, as well as to do lists that never get done!