Rdearman 2016-24 You Can't Have Your Kate and Edith Too.

[rdearman]

How much time do you really have? And of course we all learn differently.

That was sort of my point. You can carve out time for anything if you want it enough. The problem is that I don't want it enough to push aside other things. Sometimes I just prefer to take a nap. I'm that age where a nap sounds good most of the time.

Perhaps if you did Italian and Italian only for a number of years and gave yourself a minimal goal of say an hour a day of whatever you please, or 15 minutes a day of reading and 45 min watching (whatever you like), you might find in 5 years you're all over the language, enjoy it thoroughly and actually can introduce another.

Mmmm... I've been studying Italian on and off for over 20 years. I have to say that I was better at it 5-7 years ago before French stuck it's nose into my life. Sadly switching about diminishes the gains you've made elsewhere. So I'd clamp down on your wanderlust until you get to your C1-C2 level.

From the snippets of insights you have provided here in your log and perhaps a sprinkling elsewhere,

Yeah, I have been whining a lot lately huh?

The ball is in your court and it's totally your free and liberal choice to do whatever the hell you want to do. Don't make life too hard for yourself.

I've been reading a lot of Epicetus lately, and that would seem to be good advice. Thing is I don't know if I'm doing this because I want to, or because long ago my past self thought language learning was a great idea and roped present me into it.

[Carmody]

Yes to "Epicetus"; he definitely rocks.

Minor point, some people spell it Epictetus also.

[neofight78]

And finally, I don't enjoy learning languages. I didn't even like learning English grammar, why the hell would I give a toss about French grammar?

If you don't enjoy it or need it, don't do it!

In English I get lost in the story and completely forget my surrondings. I am 100% completely immersed in the narative of the author. In any other language this doesn't happen. Even French which is probably my strongest reading language I cannot get into immersion mode. Even when I know all the words it seems somehow "mechanical" to read in French. It doesn't flow, it is jerky and horrible and drudgery. I get no pleasure from it.

This is an interesting comment. I'm curious, why do you think you can't get into the groove? I struggled reading Russian fiction, and only got there after learning a bunch of words in advance and leaning heavily on the kindle dictionary. But even so I did manage to enter into immersion mode. Incidentally this was a strange feeling because it's a long long time since I read any English novels, so I had forgotten what it was like.

I'll stick with Italian, I've always liked it, even if I am crap at it. Mandarin and Setswana interest me although more like puzzles than a burning desire which is what is really required to learn more than superficially.

I enjoy playing chess even though any improvement stopped a long time ago and I'm nowhere near Grandmaster level. I did go though an intense study phase, but I'm probably happier now that I've let that go and just enjoy what I have. Do what you like doing with languages, for whatever reason, and let go of any concerns about your level. Study if you want to, and how you want to, and don't demand improvement. Why beat yourself up over it?

[Iversen]

I agree with neofight78: if you loath the thought of having to do a speech in French then don't do it in French. I'm sure everybody at the gathering will accept your decision, including the organizers.

[Arnaud]

I've already given up on Czech, I need crazy case systems like I need a hole in the head.

The first language with declensions is always very difficult. My piece of advice: learn russian first and then Czech will seem very easy

[rdearman]

The first language with declensions is always very difficult. My piece of advice: learn russian first and then Czech will seem very easy

I think there is a fault in your reasoning... but if I ever decide that French wasn't punishment enough, then I'll go for Russian!

I agree with neofight78: if you loath the thought of having to do a speech in French then don't do it in French. I'm sure everybody at the gathering will accept your decision, including the organizers.

Oh I'm bloody doing it in French. It might make peoples ears bleed and run from the room screaming, but I've invested far to much time to take the easy way out now. You people are going to listen to my "dead slug" of a tongue brutally ruining Arnaud's language! Then I think a lot more people will be wandering up to me and say; "yeah, you're right, you should give French a miss."

This is an interesting comment. I'm curious, why do you think you can't get into the groove? I struggled reading Russian fiction, and only got there after learning a bunch of words in advance and leaning heavily on the kindle dictionary. But even so I did manage to enter into immersion mode. Incidentally this was a strange feeling because it's a long long time since I read any English novels, so I had forgotten what it was like.

I'm an avaricious reader and consume copious amounts of books. Before I started spending time with languages I used to commute on the train and I read 10-12 books per week. I also read fast in English, more twice the average words words per minute (I took time to go and do three online tests before making this statement! I read about 455-600 words per minute, the average is 200-300)

I don't subvocalise when I read in English but when I read in French I do. "Subvocalization, or silent speech, is the internal speech typically made when reading; it provides the sound of the word as it is read."

I think it might be that I don't get the same immersion because of the painfully slow speed which I'm reading in French or Italian. Less than average speed I think. I didn't test it, but probably less than 150 words per minute. This gives my mind a lot of time to wander. And that is why I think I am having immersion problems. Having to drag my mind back to the page because I'm not streaming information into my brain quick enough.

Yes to "Epicetus"; he definitely rocks.
Minor point, some people spell it Epictetus also.

Yes, sorry I spelt it wrong. But he is long dead and probably wouldn't hold a grudge anyway.

[reineke]

"Keep silence for the most part, and speak only when you must, and then briefly."

[rdearman]

"Keep silence for the most part, and speak only when you must, and then briefly."

"Keep neither a blunt knife or indisciplined looseness of tongue."

[rdearman]

Well, this week I've again done nothing but read in Italian and practice my presentation in French. Today I'm going to work on my English workshop because it has been a bit neglected! I've decided that I should take another look at the rotation system which Expugnator showed me. The original recommendations I wrote about way back here: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 770#p99126

But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;
The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

-- "To A Mouse" by Robert Burns

Anyway, my plans have "Gang aft agley" and so I'm going to do a revision. My original thoughts were to do 20 minutes per language plus 1 hour desk study each day on alternative languages. Since I've dropped Czech that means 80 minutes per day for the 4 languages then 1 hour per day on rotation of desk study. Also this was only going to be weekdays since weekends are unpredictable. I'm not the sort of person who has the self-discipline to manage this without some trickery. I know that the best way to get something done is to have a habit. When I trained for marathons I would get dressed after work and go running before dinner. It was a habit and something I did. You don't have to think about habits, that is the whole point of them. So I want to try and get this worked out smoothly before I make it a habit, because habits are hard to break!

There are some other problems with this particular revision. I am finding that I really need more time to do 100 books in Italian. My back of the fag packet calculations put me reading around 25 pages per day in Italian. Which is OK, but after working out an average of 200 pages per book and the time left I'll only have completed about 75 books. That is still 300 SC books. The upshot of all that is I need to increase my reading speed, which will hopefully happen anyway as a consequence of reading more and spending a bit more time on it. Currently I'm spending about 40 minutes a weekday reading in Italian. If I drop in another 2-3 hours at the weekend I should hit my target of 100 actual books.

So my original thought I have a 40 minute train journey morning and evening. 40 minutes French/Setswana in the morning and 40 minutes Italian/Mandarin in the evening. Then one hour Mon-TN, Tue-FR, Wed-IT, Thu-ZH, Friday-Monthly Rotation. So on Friday I would do FR 1st week, etc. Now this seems a very systematic and logical method. Now the hour desk-study I figured could be either actual study of grammar books, or a tutor. I already have an hour with a French tutor on Tuesdays so that is already scheduled for me. I could easily find an Italian tutor for Wednesday, but Setswana and Mandarin tutors aren't there and because of the rules of the FLC I couldn't use a paid tutor for Setswana anyway. I could get a Mandarin tutor, but it would have to be before I get to go to work, so I'm looking at having to get up at 4:30-5:00 am in order to do a lesson.

I'm not getting up at stupid o'clock in the morning so that is out. But not really because I have to get up, but because I want the language hour to happen at the same time each day so it is a habit. However, the excel calligraphy trick smallwhite showed me for learning to write Chinese characters is very much an activity which I can do for an hour at a desk and it would be very useful. And Setswana I can spend an hour trying to decipher a newspaper article.

I think this is probably a workable schedule if I can ensure I spend a couple of hours at the weekend reading in Italian. The next question that entered my mind was resources. The hour study isn't a problem, using and getting resources while sat at home with a computer and an internet connection really isn't a problem. Resource issues arrive when I'm travelling. I have my phone and tablet and for most of the journey bar two telecommunications black spots on my journey I'm OK. I doubt think I will have a problem for French or Italian, since I'm advanced enough there to listen to audiobooks for the twenty minutes and I have some material I can L-R. Setswana will always be an issue, but I have anki, some PDF's and the bible, and little or no audio. Mandarin I have apps for when there is a good phone signal and I have some ebooks. I also bought a graded reader which has the stories recorded on CD. But I'll probably save that for desk study since I have to lug around the paperback book.

So that is this months plan. I'll trial it next week before I go to Bratislava and implement it the week I return assuming all goes week in next weeks trial.

[neofight78]

I'm an avaricious reader and consume copious amounts of books. Before I started spending time with languages I used to commute on the train and I read 10-12 books per week. I also read fast in English, more twice the average words words per minute (I took time to go and do three online tests before making this statement! I read about 455-600 words per minute, the average is 200-300)

Hmm.. Sounds like you need to take my approach, stop reading fiction for 30 years and then start reading it in a foreign language. Easy and guaranteed to work!