Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

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Cavesa
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:18 pm

Well, you can always look at the medicine degrees for foreigners. You know, those taught in English or in one case French in non anglophone/francophone countries (usually in central or eastern Europe, but even in countries like Italy apparently). Yep, they tend to be of worse quality (after all, they are a money machine to keep afloat the faculties not allowed to charge for the normal degrees), but you still get a recognized degree and can continue in a better country after that. You might even get an EU citizenship and passport (six years are definitely enough in some countries), just in a worse country.

Faculties doing this for money are very interested in getting you, and often find a way to avoid quotas like what you've encountered. You are not primarily a student, you are a customer. You could use that.

Even if these degrees and faculties tend to be worse (really, I was correct for all those years, that my faculty was trash compared to the French/German/Swiss ones. And the anglophone degree was even worse), you can make up for that. I was told by my superiors to be overall no different from my colleagues from the local faculties, just with individual different strengths and weaknesses. I feel that I was worse off and see how much I needed to do to catch up (and I did so very successfully so far!). So do my colleagues, who studied the francophone degree in Romania. At first, we are at a disadvantage. But we make up for it and are no worse than the more privileged colleagues in the end.

Such an option is definitely a handicap for the residency entrance in countries with a standardized exam (France-which is now temporarily totally f...ed, Italy, Spain,...) but you can make up for it.

In spite of having VERY different views on many issues, I find your disappointment heartbreaking for me too. I see an intelligent highly motivated person, who just looks for an opportunity to get to study and practice medicine in Europe.

I think your most accessible path is one of the paid "for foreigners" degrees, which should also help you get a permit. In the six years, you can get an EU passport, you can get a medicine degree, and (if you plan accordingly) prepare for moving on to a better country (self study for exams, every opportunity at a round or internship abroad, etc).
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Cavesa
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:45 am

Subcapus wrote:I did look some universities up today, and I even looked up Univerzita Karlova Faculty of Medicine international website. It is quite selfsaid that it is a money-making machine, as the yearly tuition fees for non-EU are CZK 500.000, which is 20.463€, or USD 21.639. To say that this is a lot would be an understatement. Of course, for Americans and Canadians, this is a steal, which shows how horrifically high both countries' tuition fees are. It is marginally cheaper than Karolinska Institutet in Sweden, which is SEK 250000 per year; 21.621€ or USD 22.864.


Yep. It is quite a lot, because it pays also the local students' studies, as those are not allowed to pay and have no system of student loans in place. Because "education is for free and fees would ruin it". It is not, the poor cannot afford it anyways, because there is no system in place to really support them enough to also eat. And getting a job aside medschool is very hard (with everyday obligatory attendance at least in the last three years. Employers are used to people from the easy degrees having two or three days available).

But you are a customer, and get permit and stuff. It is also much easier to be accepted, as the competition at the entrance exams is at a much lower level. And if I had to pick, of course I'd rather spend this ton of money on the Swedish faculty than a Czech one! And in Sweden, you actually can stay after your studies and have a decent life, good quality further education, and ok money. Or move abroad.

Yep, a rare american/canadian is sometimes found there.

But basically: medicine studies are usually not for the poor and are not much of a social ladder out of poverty, that's what the technical degrees do. They are mostly a privilege for fools like me, grown up in middle class and with some stupid saviour complex or similar issues. Medicine does not make 99% of people in it rich, you usually destroy your personal life and health just to be middle class. In the richer countries, it is not normal for medicine students to also work. In mine, people are sort of supposed to but cannot really manage (it is so annoying, when naive people from easy degrees talk about that. A typical exchange in a bank: "So, what is your regular income? You surely have some student job?" "Sure, regularily in July and August")

I do plan to try those in countries like Italy, as even though they are not the most 'prestigious', medicine is medicine, and it is not like they are total rubbish in those countries. Given the huge hindering solely based on having a non-EU passport, I simply lack the flexibility and choice that a passport holder of an EU/EEA country has. I will apply also to Spanish universities as I know the language.

Italy is actually known to be not too different from the Czech Republic, even though there are bigger inter-university differences apparently, some of the faculties are excellent, some are really not much to desire. Underfunded, highly theoretical (but perhaps less of the bullshit "theory"). But surely a possibility and people from Italy go all over Europe too! Cervelli in fuga!

It is just frustrating knowing that over EU/EEA passport holders have over 90% more possibilities than I do, plus often have tuition fees waived, whilst non-EU passport holders have to pay tens of thousands for something that EU people get for free. It definitely hurts


Yes and no. They don't get the tuition waived. Either they study in the local language and have the same tuition as the locals (which in many cases means no tuition), or they buy the anglophone degree and pay just like non-EU people
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Cavesa
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:07 pm

Subcapus wrote:One thing that was never clear was if the six years spent studying in any of these countries count towards residence and citizenship or not. Some countries explicitly say that time spent on a student visa do not count at all. This is of course the case with non-EU students, as EU citizens need no student visa to stay in the country since they already have freedom of movement from their EU status


That varies by country. In mine, a few non EU people had their study years count.

But in any case, you forget that once you get the paper stating you are an MD in the EU, you will become a much more desirable candidate for a work permit. But it will still be hard to get into your desired gastroenterology. Europe is trying to force as many doctors as possible to become generalists (I'd rather leave medicine for good, six months of that ungrateful and frustrating hell sufficed), and immigrants are seen as an easy target (basically supposed to be grateful even for such a horrible job)

Really, it is a lot about your main priority. If your priority is becoming a valuable european asap, and therefore get a citizenship asap, then medicine is clearly not the way to go, you should build on the qualifications that you've already got. If you want medicine, then it will be a very long path with lots of obstacles and studying is curiously not the hardest one.
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Cavesa
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:04 pm

Subcapus wrote:I know, and I choose this one. Priority is definitely medicine itself over citizenship. But which countries are you referring to with the studying years counted towards residence/citizenship?

In my country. It was counted at least for the permanent residency, which was a prerequisite for citizenship later.

I already did over a decade of non-medicine fields, and everyday was unhappy up to now and ongoing. Each day I think, 'I wish I could be a doctor right now instead of this.' I cannot keep up this charade and build on this other stuff like chemical engineering, as it is a drag and honestly not enjoyable unlike medicine.

Yep, that's what I've had in most medical jobs of mine, the "I wish I could be a real doctor right now instead of this social and useless nonsense" :-D . As I am an immigrant (even EU), I had to take jobs that didn't interest me at all (psychiatry, general medicine), and now I am punished for it during the interviews, becuase the bosses cannot understand I desire to do something totally different, just had to take what was offered.

In any case, like you said, after the 6 years, the MD would make me highly sought after in EU countries for a work permit, and if I have to do the citizenship thing the long way, then so be it. What really was frustrating was knowing that for example the medicine course in public universities in Portugal are barred from non-EU applicants. However a special trade agreement with China allows them special treatment with spaces reserved specifically for Chinese nationals despite being non-EU. Italy also have this, called 'Marco Polo Programme', where Chinese applicants have special seats reserved that other non-EU lack. So you have for some countries three categories: EU/EEA, non-EU and Chinese. The whole thing seems unfair.


Of course it is unfair. Medicine is often extremely unfair, so is the whole academia. And yep, the Chinese-EU relations have been a huge problem but are still not changing fast enough (in spite of several national counterintelligence services warning against such academic ties).

Just look for an acceptable path and grieve the rest enough to not let it bother you anymore.

From my point of view and taking into account your priorities, I'd definitely consider your financial options and get one of the degrees sold to foreigners. Preferably at a high quality and more prestigious university, like those in Sweden. If not, any will do. And prepare for the country to move on afterwards. The easiest are the germanophone ones after faculty. But the other options are mostly preparable too.
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DaveAgain
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:57 am

Happy Birthday! :-)
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