Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

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Querneus
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Re: Lingvas romanās domināre

Postby Querneus » Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:03 pm

You remind me of a language learner that was very involved online, with a blog and on forums about 10 years ago, whose thing was he was learning all six major Romance languages too (plus maybe some Latin). I forget his name, Luna-something probably.

The Latin title could receive some small fixes BTW. The macrons of the first two words should be linguās rōmānās, and while I just saw in a dictionary that active-voice domināre is actually attested in ancient times (though very rarely), this verb is usually used as a "deponent", in the passive voice: dominārī. So I suggest changing it to "Lingvās rōmānās dominārī".
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:30 pm

Subcapus wrote:For personal reasons, I prefer that nobody comment in this log.


Subcapus wrote:One thing that I do not understand is that, from what I read, medical school in France takes minimum nine years?! That is extremely long. Other than that, a minimum of a DELF/DALF C1 certificate is necessary. That is fine enough, but nine years plus?


Do you prefer me to explain very clearly or do you prefer me to respect your wish and not comment?
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:14 pm

Subcapus wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Do you prefer me to explain very clearly or do you prefer me to respect your wish and not comment?


Sure, that would be fine.


:-D So which option would be fine? You might also consider the magical word "please" ;-)

But he're my tiny act of kindness for the day:

The "9 years of medschool" is a soon to be outdated sum up of the actual medical degree+the shortest possible residency.

Why outdated: because the shortest residency (general practicioner) is right now being changed from a 3 year minimum to a 4 year minimum

And it is also very optimistic. The first step is the first year, ended with a highly selective exam. Just passing your exams in a French medschool is the bare minimum requirement and no guarantee. Many people need 2 tries= years to get selected in the first year competition and even more simply don't get to study any further (some of them then continue in Romania). It is like an entrance exam, but a year later, tons of sacrifices later. There are now also new passerelles through other paths and degrees. A nice idea to make it all a bit less suicidal and more open, but in reality still a work in progress.

If you get among the very best people in the exam, then the next two years are rather ok, you just have to pass the normal subject exams (which are not that easy anyways, but this is the calmest part). Then the next three years of very high quality clinical education, you prepare for a huge exam ECN. This info is soon to be outdated too, with some supposedly smaller exam instead and one or several practical exams.

Then, if you get a high enough score in all this, better than enough of your very skilled, intelligent, and hardworking competitors, you get to choose a specialty for residency. If you get a bad score, you can choose just from a few. So, if you want to be a GP, no problem here, just educate yourself on why are the French GPs manifesting and protesting right now, and how are they being screwed over (basically any liberty and most motives for doing GP being stripped away to force them to do lower quality medicine in areas with bad quality of life, and with worse work hours).

If you don't get what you want, then there are a few limited options to switch or to retake the exam.

In reality, the medical faculty itself takes 6 years minimum, but very often 7 or 8 (if you need to repeat the first year competition, if you enter a passerelle, if you need to repeat a year for academic/health/personal reason, etc).

Then the internat takes minimum 5 or 6 years, depending on the specialty, with the exception of GP. Vast majority of young doctors can pass internat in the standard time (which is a huge advantage over for example the Czech system, where nearly nobody can finish in time and most people get screwed), but it can still get longer due to personal or health reasons, or in some cases bullying or other problems from the superiors.

You get freedom after at the very least 10 years in the system, if everything goes extremely smoothly.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:01 am

Subcapus wrote:
Thanks for the insight. I fail to understand why they make it so long in France. 10 years is almost as bad as it is in the USA and Canada. Most other EU countries have the standard six years with 360 total ECTS, i.e. 60 credits per year or 30 credits per semester. In Italy, Portugal, Romania, etc., the residency, I believe, starts at the beginning of year 4 concurrently with classes, then ends at year 6, which is the last year of schooling. I really do not know why France has to be that long.


You misunderstand. France is not in any way "making it so long". The faculty is normally 6 years, which is the same as everywhere in Europe. The residency is usually 5 or 6 years, again the same as everywhere in Europe (at least if you count the minimum times).

France has the same 360 ECTS as everyone else, but the ECTS are not really adapted to the medicine studies anywhere. ECTS are the best in fields, where it doesn't really matter what subjects you take and in what order. In medicine, it is not the case. ECTS are just an added complication (plus it makes people from easy schools think they are equal to medicine students in difficulty of studies, which is ridiculous. A four credit subject in humanities is not the same as a four credit subject in medschool). They don't really mean anything at all, just another level of complication for students strugling with one subject or two in a semester.

No, the residency doesn't start in year 4. It starts after 6 years, after ECN. They have real clinical classes with real training from year 4. In theory, so does everyone else in every EU country. The Czech faculties claim to do the same but then just continue their powerpoint madness. The difference is in quality, not in the official form of the studies.

What starts in year 4 in France is "Externat", which is the second half of medschool. Residency is called "Internat" and starts after.

Nope, no country at all starts residency at year 4 and end at year 6.
Italy and Spain have basically the same system as France, just with a twist. The last few thousand candidates (sorted in an exam) with finished year 6 don't get any residency at all and need to retake the last exam.

Nowhere in Europe (and as far as I know nowhere in the world) are you a full doctor after year 6. People tend to think a GP is someone after year 6, but that is just widespread ignorance.

If you want to become a doctor, which is certainly doable even for people older than the majority, you simply need to count with 9-15 years of no or limited freedom. This is a piece of info sorely missing, when this career path is usually being presented to highschoolers and their parents. And the lack of this info is really a scam. You sacrifice a lot during the six (or a bit more) years, you risk suicide, addiction, depression, and other mental or physical health issue, but the outcome is very different from the usually presented image. You need to invest another 3-6 (or more) years to get to a normally functioning part of the job market, or it will all have been for nothing.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby rdearman » Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:19 pm

In the UK you have a 5 year medical degree, then 2 year "foundation" degree, and the 18-24 months training in general medicine. You are not automatically qualified after you get the degree. A pharmacist takes 6 years minimum in the UK and a paramedic takes 3 years plus 18-24 months working in the field.

I don't know what what your family members are telling you, but unless they have a license from the GMC they are not GPs, they are just people with a medical degree and 7 years is the quickest you could get a license. Most people need at least 9 years on average.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:19 pm

Subcapus wrote:This is far more complicated that I had imagined.


Yep, that's a pretty common reaction.

In any case, I wish to re-start my life, as my high school marks, as well as my undergraduate ones, are mediocre due to the endless physical and mental health problems that I had as a teenager and throughout my 20s. If I could re-do the admission process like in Italy, it would be favourable. Italy, for example, base close to or almost entirely their admissions process on an entrance exam, which is the IMAT for the English courses and a similar science-centred entrance exam (in Italian) for the Italian courses.

It depends on what is your priority in re-starting your life. It is definitely a valid desire for some people, I know a few successful examples. If you really wish to become a doctor, then good, go for it. But if you are looking for anything like job stability, that's at least ten years in the future. If you're looking for middle class income, that's 6-15 years in the future, depending on the country.

Yes, entrance exams are the most just way. Not the grades, as those punish people from harder schools or people who have had various health or personal struggles. And not really the first year exam in France, which really is far too late and far too much of a sacrifice for a late entrance exam.

I don't know how you get to Italian medical faculty. If there are normal entrance exams, it could be a wonderful option.

The EU should standardise all of their medicine (and other) courses, so that there is easy conversion between countries. In the UK, the normal is five years (and some cases four years) to become a GP; in other words, the five years include the residency period. That is how I have family members who became GPs at 21 or 22.


But the standardization has already happened :-D That's what the whole mess with stupid credits has been about. And some things have really changed for the better, such as obligation of faculties to recognize erasmus exams etc (which is a very good change. For me, Erasmus was in general the only oppportunity to get a part of my education of higher quality, and my faculty couldn't just let me fail for that) at least the opportunities to candidate for a residency spot are better (and I know damn well how far from ideal they still are). The residency is not standardazided. I think it is actually a blessing in disguise, because we have no guarantee the more reasonable systems would prevail.

I don't think you can become a GP in the UK in five years, unless you mean 5 years of residency post faculty. And it really makes sense that residency is needed. If it is well done, it has a lot of value. Unfortunately, most countries use it primarily as a way to turn young doctors into slaves and only secondarily as the key part of your formation.

I regret not visiting the Sorbonne, since I was a few blocks away from the campus, although I probably was not even in the right faculty, as the medicine faculty is located in the XIIIe arrondissement. France probably have the highest standard on paper in terms of medicine courses out of the whole list, although all the other countries are also high standard, but the French system is extremely confusing.


Nah, the French system is still less confusing than for example the Czech system, which on paper looks rather clear and normal. But when you look at the reality, the French system is still pretty much paper=reality. While some others, such as the Czech one, present two different universes.

The "simplest"might be the German one, it really looks rather straightforward, as far as residency goes. And most people I know in it are pretty content. But getting to the faculty is not, I think it is grades based and no clue about the foreigners.

Subcapus wrote:That was what I had heard from their accounts from decades ago; they are older than I am, but since they had graduated in the 1970s and 1980s, my guess is that back then things were different. Even when I studied in the UK a decade ago, I would hear from the Medicine students that it was 5 years, or 4 years for those with an undergraduate degree. Unless I totally missed something, I reckoned that they certainly meant that 5 years was all that was needed to fully become a GP.

Italian and Portuguese are always on my highest priority list, but I have to a get a hold on the rest of the languages (like French) so I do not keep jumping from one to the other thinking that I need to bring it to the top priority list alongside Italian and Portuguese.


Accounts from decades ago are pretty much worthless now. But even then, I sort of doubt that just having the degree meant a GP qualification. A GP is still a medical specialty in spite of the name.

Btw have you considered other healthcare options? Being a nurse these days is a highly qualified job, with many skills different from doctors', with both knowledge and human contact. I even know a few doctors, who have doubted that they might have been happier as nurses. And you get your degree in three years and you are a skilled full nurse with a few more years of experience. Or you might thrive as lab technitian, radiology technician, physiotherapist, ergotherapist.... All these options can be great career paths and take much less sacrifice than medschool+residency. Really, when I compare myself with nurses my age around me, I see people much much further in a career.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:16 pm

Subcapus wrote:It is totally a case of my always wanting to be a doctor, not job stability. From around age 4 or 5 it has been my dream. It was just a lot of obstacles that were not related to academics were in place that halted me at those times. There is nothing else that I would rather be than a doctor.


And what exactly has been your dream? This is an important question. Being a doctor in your own cabinet doing rather independent and very clinical everyday general medicine? This one is rather possible, most european countries are trying to make this more popular through various means due to shortage (except for France, which is trying to force people into it, destroy it, and will in the end make people quit). Has it been working as a hospital specialist? That one is much harder, especially in some specialties. Totally doable in psychiatry, geriatry, and other specilties with a shortage. For other stuff, it will be hard, the competition is fierce. Possible, especially if you study fully in France, but hard. Has it been medical research? In that case going through other types of education might be a much faster path to the same result.

Just "I want to be a doctor" is a very risky thing. You have an advantage over the young typical students of much more life experience. And also a disadvantage of having less time to achieve the dreams. So, define your ideal future a bit more precisely and make plans based on that.

I still feel as if my late teenage years and my 20s were stolen from me. That is why entrance exam would be much more favourable for my case.

Yeah, I had horrible teenage and 20's too, for various reasons. I have a similar feeling that that time was stolen from me and my potential wasted. But medical faculty was one of the factors destroying me. I am a much happier person now in my 30's, my dreams are finally coming true. It is often hard, but I can finally build the life I want. It's wonderful. If medschool is the path to yours, go for it. But I am just convinced you should know what you are signing up for. I wish someone had told me.

Don't forget that medschool and residency can cost you life. Not sure about current data, but in the last few years, there was an average of one suicide every 18 or so days in France among the medicine students and young doctors. In other countries, it happens too, but we don't get to know about it usually. Or if not suicides, there is a lot of addictions, untreated mental illness, and suboptimally handled physical illness. Remember, that you will be punished by the system, if you are ill, because just catching up on the obligatory attendance and such stuff is not often possible. It is very petty from the universities and teachers, but it happens. And don't forget that half the Europe makes access to the specialty you want a competition. If you get ill, or have family problems, and so on, you risk not getting anything you might like.

Also, don't forget about money. It is nice, that studies in most european countries are "free" or just for some rather small administrative fee. But you still need to eat, have a roof over your head, buy books, and so on. It costs a lot. And nope, you cannot just work aside the same way people studying the easy degrees do it. Some people manage to work part time (and it is very hard to get any kind of a student job, as the employers are used to people from easier faculties and their free days), but it can seriously damage their results. And it's a problem especially in the countries with competition based system (such as France). Prepare financially.

The process for the English Medicine degree courses in Italian medical schools is to go through some typically Italian bureaucratic measures like getting apostille, sworn translated documents, lawyers to certify documents, etc., and then register for and sit the IMAT. The Medicine degree courses in Italian language are similar, but one has to sit an entrance exam, based on the guidebook that I had bought in Rome. The study book is the huge tome with a pink front cover in the photos above. Both the English and Italian courses at Italian medical schools have this kind of entrance exam that is centred mostly on biology and chemistry, but also to a lesser extent, mathematics, physics and some sort of logic and "general knowledge", which seems to be based on news and current events.


I'd advise against the English medical degrees in countries like Italy, the Czech Republic, and actually most european countries. They are of lower quality, due to stuff I've described already in logs (English level of the teachers, lower standards and expectations from you as you are buying the degree, being surrounded by overall less serious students, lower quality of direct training with patients due to language barrier, etc). It will be a problem, if you want to compete against the real Italian students for residency places.

Unless you want to just get the easier degree and then try your luck in an anglophone country (UK is getting desperate, I've heard, but I would not want to work there), I think you should always study in the local language. If you study with the normal and serious Italian students, if you are pushed as hard as them, if you get the teachers at their best (=not limited by their English skills), you have much better chances to do well enough in the competition for residency places.

The French system I have been reading about for this past week. I still have to put all of this information together in my head, but it is a nice country for long-term life with excellent educational standards, so at least having such a possibility in the pocket is something good to have.

Yes, it is a wonderful country and the education is excellent. I agree. But there are downsides too and need to be considered.

Cavesa wrote:Btw have you considered other healthcare options? ...


It is true that other things like nurse take less years, but those other things are all things that I am not interested in. In my early 20s, I did other stuff that was fairly unrelated, based more on industrial chemistry and physics, but every day of my life was tortured doing something that I know deep down that I was not happy doing. I tried to suppress my desires to become a doctor and settle doing various odd jobs, but eventually in my late 20s, I could take it no longer and had to go back to my original goals that I have always had. The exact same thing would happen if I tried to do something else, and I am committed to just one track, which is Medicine.


That's a very good reason. Perhaps the best one. But ask yourself also about other "details" of your dream, before commiting. Which specialty (-ies) would you like (this part is the most likely to change or evolve), way of practicing (hospital, private cabinet, research,etc), family life, work life balance or not, financial expectations, etc. If you take the leap, be sure to build your path in the right direction.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:16 am

Don't forget there is also CILS C2 and PLIDA C2. They all have the same validity and widen your planning options considerably. When I was choosing my C1 exam, the exam date was the number 1 criterion. The differences between the exams are rather tiny. Some people say that CILS is the hardest one (in the sense "I've passed the CILS, so I am the best and you are all delusional frauds" :-D ), but I am not really sure about that.

In both your priority languages, you can get conversation practice for rather cheap online. They are accessible, compared to some more expensive languages.

And as far as Covid goes: of course it hasn't totally disappeared, of course there will be a new seasonal wave this autumn/winter (like with the flu or rsv). But thanks to the wide spread vaccination+the fact many of us have already had it, the risks are much smaller, and you are very likely to have just the mild symptoms in case of infection (mild=no hospitalisation, no artificial ventilation, no thromboembolic complications, etc. It still hurts, exhausts,annoys.) That's why the society no longer obsesses about it, and it is a very good thing. There are many more probable viruses and bacteria you can catch these days. :-) But if you prefer to avoid groups of people nonetheless, it is of course a valid choice! You're absolutely right that far too many people are scumbags :-)
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Iversen » Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:03 pm

And one thing more (as far as Covid went): it has been less problematic to travel around, and personally I expect to visit a couple of places in Southern Europe here in 2023 - and Latinamerica can't be ruled out either. This year I have only spoken Italian in a pizzeria in Copenhagen where the owners and almost all employees are Italian (which is my main reasons for coming there - and this time one of them actually asked me whether I came from Italy haha :lol:), and I don't remember having spoken any of the other Romance languages to others yet in 2023. Those short trips are important for my ability to maintain my level in those languages - especially since I couldn't imagine myself paying for internet conversations.

As far as I can see from the posts of other members, it doesn't seem that they are so dependent on short trips to suitable places - maybe because they choose to pay up for Italki meetings or similar things.
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Re: Lingvās rōmānās dominārī

Postby Querneus » Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:33 am

Much to my embarrassment, I have now learned that dominārī doesn't take an accusative object, but rather a dative or ablative or an "in + acc." object. So the title should be "linguīs rōmānīs dominārī", or "in linguās rōmānās dominārī". See the relevant Lewis & Short entry.
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