Radioclare's 2016 log (Croatian/Russian)

[Radioclare]

As promised, today I have done some proper studying.

I had two wonderful Croatian textbooks for Christmas. The first one, "Hrvatska na prvi pogled", is a textbook about Croatian culture, written in Croatian but specifically designed for students of Croatian as a foreign language. This is the only such textbook that exists to my knowledge, and I was so excited when we found it in Zagreb The blurb says it is written for students at B2 level or above and so the main thing I have learned today is that I am nowhere near B2 level!

The book is divided into sections which focus on different cultural themes. The first section is about Croatian geography, which is where I have started today. I've been reading *very* slowly and looking up most of the words I don't know to make sure I learn as much as possible. New words I have learned today include:

vapnenac - limestone
krški - karst
bukva - beech
bjelogorični - deciduous
crnogorični - coniferous

If these are in the conversational vocabulary of a B2 speaker than I clearly still have a lot of work to do.

In fairness, the first few pages of the textbook were dealing with the physical geography of Croatia and I guess that is a fairly advanced topic which requires some specialist vocabulary.

An example paragraph to show the level of difficulty....

Prirodno-geografske karakteristike određuju njezine tri prirodne makroregije: panonsko-peripanonsku (nizinsku) Hrvatsku - koja se proteže na više od polovice kopnene površine u južnome, rubnom dijelu Panonske nizine i u kojoj žive dvije trećine stanovništva Hrvatske, primorsku - koja zauzima trećinu kopnene površine države uz 6278 km dugačku, razvedenu obalu Jadranskoga mora s više od 1200 otoka, otočića i hridi te obalnim zaleđem, koju nastanjuje otprilike trećina hrvatskoga stanovništva, te gorsku - koja obuhvaća preostalih 13,5% površine u planinsko-kotlinskom prostoru planinskoga sustava Dinarida, a u kojoj živi tek oko 2% žitelja Hrvatske.

I found sentences like that a struggle - much more challenging than reading a novel or watching a TV programme - but then the aim of the book is to learn

The good news is that once I'd waded through all the physical geography we got onto human geography and the sentences suddenly seemed a bit easier to understand.

U uvjetima viskoga nataliteta u relativno mirnijem razdoblju 19. stoljeća stanovništvo se konstanto povećavalo. Ipak, zbog početka emigracije u prekomorske zemlje (Sjeverna i Južna Amerika) do koje je došlo uslijed, primjerice, agrarne prenaseljenosti dijelova Hrvatske, prezaduženosti seljaka i vinogradarske bolesti, porast broja stanovnika bio je nešto sporiji nego u razvijenijim zemljama Europe.

Passages like that one were definitely easier to read for me but possibly just because the subject matter was a bit simpler.

One interesting point is that the entire chapter is about "geografija" and not "zemljopis"

The second textbook I had for Christmas is called "Hrvatski u upotrebi" and I think it's more designed for actual Croatians who want to brush up on their grammar. It's divided in 121 short lessons about specific topics, aimed at improving your grasp of a particular point of grammar. I did the first lesson this morning which was about "nepostojano a" (in English it is often referred to as "fleeting a" or "vanishing a"). It took me a while to get through it even though it was only a couple of pages because I had to look up quite a few words. But they were mainly words relating to grammatical terminology, so I'm expecting that as I get further through the book it will become easier for me to understand.

[Expugnator]

Clare, why did it make you think you're not at B2? It's normal to feel a "shock" when you read a genre you're not used to, in your case school textbook. In my case I d mostly fiction in Norwegian, and when I see a news text I find it painful to adjust. I still think it's just a matter of waiting for your skills to accommodate after a couple of texts/days.

[Stelle]

I find that names of trees, flowers, birds, and/or fish is a poor marker of a person's vocabulary in any language - including the one that they were born into! I know bird names in French, Spanish and English - but I couldn't always tell you which one corresponds to which.

Good luck with your new books!

[Serpent]

Very true. This seems similar to the Italian books I've been using - a history book and guidebooks to Florence and Venice. Since this book is for those who are already at B2, obviously they want you to progress further, and I think you're expected to use a dictionary. I also suppose this kind of words is more important passively.

[Radioclare]

Clare, why did it make you think you're not at B2? It's normal to feel a "shock" when you read a genre you're not used to, in your case school textbook. In my case I d mostly fiction in Norwegian, and when I see a news text I find it painful to adjust. I still think it's just a matter of waiting for your skills to accommodate after a couple of texts/days.

If there had been a wordlist in the textbook or something like that, I wouldn't have felt so bad but I guess I just felt a bit depressed at the thought that the person writing the textbook expected people at B2 to know the Croatian word for "karst". I've just been out for dinner with my boyfriend and it transpires that he isn't even sure what karst is in English, so now I feel a bit better.

You are right, of course, that I should give myself some time to adjust because this is the first time I have tried reading non-fiction in Croatian. Hopefully I will start feeling more confident as I work my way through the book.

I find that names of trees, flowers, birds, and/or fish is a poor marker of a person's vocabulary in any language - including the one that they were born into! I know bird names in French, Spanish and English - but I couldn't always tell you which one corresponds to which.

I once started learning Croatian words for fish and I got as far as "zubatac", which is Croatian for "dentex" before it occurred to me that I have no idea what a dentex is in English, so it was a completely pointless exercise

[Radioclare]

Assiduous readers may have noticed that I haven't posted anything about the Output Challenge yet. That might be... erm... because I hadn't done anything I made a start this evening though and have written a few hundred words as follows:

Znam da bih trebala češće pisati na hrvatskom, ali u posljednje vrijeme nisam uspjela. Imam nečistu savjest zbog toga.

Danas sam počela čitati udžbenik koji se zove „Hrvatska na prvi pogled“. To je knjiga o hrvatskoj kulturi za ljude koji uče hrvatski kao strani jezik. Prvi se poglavlje radi o geografiji Hrvatske. Još nisam pročitala cijelo poglavlje jer je tema za mene malo preteška. Ipak sam već naučila nekoliko novih riječi, primjerice vapnenac i krški. Ne znam da li ću imati puno prilika da koristim te riječi!

Prošlog vikenda vratila sam se iz Finske. Bila sam tamo na odmoru i to mi je bio drugi put da sam posjetila tu zemlju. Prvi put mi je bio prije dvije godine kada sam zapravo bila na odmoru u Estoniji, ali sam imala priliku putovati brodom do Helsinki iz Tallinna. Ovaj put sam provela tjedan dana u Finskoj, ali ne samo u Helsinkiju nego uglavnom u malom selu u sjevernom djelu zemlje. Područje se zove Laponija i teško mi je opisati koliko je lijepo tamo. Bilo je puno snijega što je bilo divno. Volim snijeg, ali su ovih dana zime u Engleskoj prilično tople pa kod nas rijetko pada snijeg. Kad smo se vratili doma, dečko mi je rekao da mu je ovo bio najbolji odmor u životu. Iskreno se nadam da ćemo moći putovati u Finsku i sljedeće godine, ali još ne znam da li će to biti moguće. Finska nije „jeftina“ zemlja – sve je skuplje nego kod kuće, mada sam bila jako olakšana kada sam shvatila da cijene tamo nisu tako visoke kao primjerice u Norveškoj. Moram početi sada uštedjeti novac

[Daniel N.]

An example paragraph to show the level of difficulty....

Prirodno-geografske karakteristike određuju njezine tri prirodne makroregije: panonsko-peripanonsku (nizinsku) Hrvatsku - koja se proteže na više od polovice kopnene površine u južnome, rubnom dijelu Panonske nizine i u kojoj žive dvije trećine stanovništva Hrvatske, primorsku - koja zauzima trećinu kopnene površine države uz 6278 km dugačku, razvedenu obalu Jadranskoga mora s više od 1200 otoka, otočića i hridi te obalnim zaleđem, koju nastanjuje otprilike trećina hrvatskoga stanovništva, te gorsku - koja obuhvaća preostalih 13,5% površine u planinsko-kotlinskom prostoru planinskoga sustava Dinarida, a u kojoj živi tek oko 2% žitelja Hrvatske.

This is not easy even for native speakers. For some strange reasons, such Croatian text usually follow the formula: one paragraph = one sentence. Probably because such a great prose cannot be split into sentences.

This is not B2, of course.

One interesting point is that the entire chapter is about "geografija" and not "zemljopis"

For some reasons, the powers that be, have decided to rename the school subject "zemljopis" back to "geografija" after 130 years or so of "zemljopis". Everything else will follow, I guess.

The second textbook I had for Christmas is called "Hrvatski u upotrebi" and I think it's more designed for actual Croatians who want to brush up on their grammar. It's divided in 121 short lessons about specific topics, aimed at improving your grasp of a particular point of grammar. I did the first lesson this morning which was about "nepostojano a" (in English it is often referred to as "fleeting a" or "vanishing a"). It took me a while to get through it even though it was only a couple of pages because I had to look up quite a few words. But they were mainly words relating to grammatical terminology, so I'm expecting that as I get further through the book it will become easier for me to understand.

Such books will cover only grammar taught in schools, e.g. standard grammar, focused on writing. There's very little chance you will find anything about nouns and verbs that change stress in different forms. However, you will likely find a lot of textbook definitions, any probably aorist tense endings

Now your Croatian writing...

Prvi se poglavlje radi o geografiji Hrvatske.

It should be "prvo", as "poglavlje" is neuter. A slightly better phrasing would be "prvo je poglavlje o geografiji Hrvatske" ili "prvo poglavlje se bavi geografijom Hrvatske".

Finska nije „jeftina“ zemlja – sve je skuplje nego kod kuće, mada sam bila jako olakšana kada sam shvatila

We are not "olakšani" (relieved), but "lakše nam (DL) je" - so it should be "mada mi je bilo mnogo lakše kad..." (you cannot use "jako" here, "lakše" is a comparative, so adverbs of quantity must be used, not of intensity)

Moram početi sada uštedjeti novac

This is a fairly typical error: with početi (start) you start a process. You don't know if the process will lead to a success. Therefore, you cannot use a perfective verb, since it stands for an accomplishment; you must use an imperfective verb here:

Moram početi sada štedjeti novac.

I could give you more suggestions on style, but your writing is quite good, and average reader could think you're a native, except for the last two errors (the first one could be a typo anyway).

[Serpent]

Many advanced level textbooks (especially monolingual) come with no glossary The Italian books I mentioned explain only historical/cultural terms
Back when I was learning English at the lyceum and university, a typical task would be to read a text and look up all the unfamiliar words in advance. There were some word lists but they didn't cover everything.

[Daniel N.]

Moram početi sada štedjeti novac.

I hope you don't mind if I give you one more suggestion: we prefer to use sad(a) for:

ongoing actions: sada jedem
actions in immediate future, expressed by ići (ide): sada idem gledati film
actions in immediate future, expressed by the future tense: sada ću gledati film

However, for actions like yours, it's a bit more common to use odmah immediately:

Moram odmah početi štedjeti novac

Furthermore, your štedjeti novac is a direct translation of "save money". However, in Croatian, it's enough to say štedjeti (or a bit less standard, but quite common štediti). We really use objects with this verb only if we save something else than money. It's not wrong to say štedjeti novac but it sounds a bit redundant. So, I would say:

Moram odmah početi štedjeti

[Radioclare]

Thank you for the corrections, Daniel - I really appreciate it because these are the sorts of things it is difficult to learn from textbooks

I am aiming to write 50 000 words of Croatian this year though for the Output Challenge so don't feel that you have to correct all of them or you may have a full time job

If my grammar textbook teaches me some aorist tense endings I will actually be quite pleased as I bought some books by Miro Gavran when I was in Zagreb in the summer (mainly on the basis that I recognised the name) and then at Christmas I read a cultural history of Zagreb which said that his style of writing was a bit pretentious and he liked to use archaic tenses. So perhaps he wasn't a good choice!

Serpent - Perhaps my expectations of the textbook are just too high then! I can't remember whether I have used a monolingual textbook before... perhaps in German a very long time ago